Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

I don't have to find it completely logical and sensible. The logical and sensible thing would have been for a Holy and righteous God to end human existence at the first sin. So I'm thankful He does things that don't make the logical sense on paper.

edit on 29-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

At least you admit you don't believe in logic.

I kid, I kid... but seriously, how do you put faith into something that you don't understand? Isn't that the same thing as blind faith?

I never said I don't believe in logic. I also never said that I don't understand it either.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

reply to post by sparky31


Yes He does. As another poster said, God could have just terminated us, why should He bother with us little puny humans that don't show love back or show any thankfulness. But He didn't. He created us each unique and with love. He knitted us in our mother's womb, can't recall exact verse. If we are part of Him then of course He loves us, he has instilled in us a part of His being. He sent Jesus down to earth to die for us. Jesus lived His life as a man, he cried when Lazarus died, He got angry, He loved, he laughed, he cried. He sweated blood from his forehead as His fear was so great at his upcoming crucifixion. He prayed to God that He wouldn't have to go through with the crucifiction. He was terrified. He was as human as could be and felt every bit of pain we would have. Perhaps us humans had to see Jesus go through that in human form so we could understand His sacrifice. Sure God could have done something bigger or easier, He is God, but we will never know all the answers. I trust that God knows the best ways for our good. In the bible it says our heads will explode if we knew everything.

Sorry I can't remember your other comment, will have to re-read it and reply.

Originally posted by freedom12
My god, my god......why have you forsaken me?


or


Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Try reading Psalm 22:1-18 and you'll see why He said that. He was confirming a prophecy made about Him many years before He came to this planet. You'll see that He was simply saying enough to allow people to understand which part of Scripture He was referring to; and if they read that part of Scripture, they would understand that the events in Psalm 22 are actually speaking about what will someday happen to the Messiah. All those things happened to Jesus.

Originally posted by adjensen
Stolen from an old post of mine:

In that moment of crucifixion, God took all the sins of the world -- every sin in the past, every sin in the future -- and took them upon himself.

Christians believe that Jesus did this for every one, in a tragically real sense -- he loves you so much that if everyone else in the world was perfect, free from sin, and had no need for redemption, he'd have gone to the cross anyway, just for you. You didn't ask for it, you might not even want it, but it's there for you, regardless.

As to why it had to happen, I like St. Anselm of Canterbury's view of "satisfaction." God cannot just wave away sin -- that is acquiescing to evil, saying that actions and intentions are of no consequence, so evil "wins". So a price must be paid to merit salvation, to meet the justice of satisfaction.

For Anselm, a Middle Ages theologian, different crimes required different levels of satisfaction, based on who they were committed against -- a crime against the king was far more serious than a crime against a peasant. This is still often the case -- a man who hits another man is viewed differently than a man who strikes a woman, or a child.

In sinning, we have committed a crime against an infinite being, and have thus incurred a penalty that would require an infinite repayment to meet satisfaction. A debt that we can obviously never pay, a debt that could never be paid on our behalf by anyone. Except an infinite being.

So, we sin against God, God pays the infinite price to meet satisfaction, and, if we accept it, we are "clothed in Christ's righteousness" when judgement comes -- Christ, effectively stands up on our behalf, says "I've got this covered", and we're in the pink.

You asked the question OP. Here's your answer, and from a Christian perspective. My answer would have been nearly identical, but not near as eloquent.

Hi Sparky
so jesus died for our sins and sees them and loves the sinner more than we,ll ever know?

couldn,t god just have done that without sending his son down to get murdered for our sins?mean hes all ready created everything hes suppose to have created so its not like hes busy.

Yes God could have changed everything without sending His son to die for us. Thinking from a human viewpoint perhaps God sent His son so that we would realize how much He loves us. If God can sacrifice His own son then He must love us as He was willing to sacrifice a part of Himself. That's how much He loved us. And ultimately if Jesus was able to live the perfect life as a human then God would have a true sacrifice instead of a replacement sacrifice without ongoing redeeming power. This is what I think God was thinking. How else would we be able to relate? If God gave us all jewels we would quicklly find something else of value, if God provided for our every need we would still be disatisfied. Adam and Eve had everything but they lost it all - their spiritual being and were now prone to sickness, aging, death. Humankind is never happy or content, we always want more. We hurt others and we get manipulated, we hurt ourselves, we find fault with ourselves, we make mistakes and every little thing we do leads to loss or pain to ourselves and others and on and on and on and on.

God is never too busy. He is God. He is bigger than anything. He created everything we know. In fact He's created an eternity for us that will continuously amaze us for all time. It's waiting for us. And those times when we feel He isn't listening or answering our prayers in the end when we can look back on the entire situationk from start to complete end we can then see how He was there all along helping us. Are these ways for us to grow, learn, to instill further trust? Or to have experiences in order to help others? Again I don't know. I like to think so. And in the end I believe that until I have lived out this human life I will do my best and know that there is an end. I live in earthly time. I know that there is an eternity of pure love and acceptance and clear thinking waiting for me. This is my belief. I don't have a perfect life and have struggled with a lifetime of issues, just as everyone else in this world. But thinking on my life and trying to understand why certain things have happened and during a specific situation when I feel like I am alone I now know I am never alone because I can see the hand of God in all I have ever gone through. I have lived long enough to see this and to believe it. This is coming from my own perspective and so I am not speaking for anyone else. But I do believe that God is always working in our lives and is always there for us, we just have to ask Jesus to guide us, love us, help us. Hugs to you Sparky.

Originally posted by ccseagull
reply to post by sparky31

 

Yes He does. As another poster said, God could have just terminated us, why should He bother with us little puny humans that don't show love back or show any thankfulness. But He didn't. He created us each unique and with love. He knitted us in our mother's womb, can't recall exact verse. If we are part of Him then of course He loves us, he has instilled in us a part of His being. He sent Jesus down to earth to die for us. Jesus lived His life as a man, he cried when Lazarus died, He got angry, He loved, he laughed, he cried. He sweated blood from his forehead as His fear was so great at his upcoming crucifixion. He prayed to God that He wouldn't have to go through with the crucifiction. He was terrified. He was as human as could be and felt every bit of pain we would have. Perhaps us humans had to see Jesus go through that in human form so we could understand His sacrifice. Sure God could have done something bigger or easier, He is God, but we will never know all the answers. I trust that God knows the best ways for our good. In the bible it says our heads will explode if we knew everything.

Sorry I can't remember your other comment, will have to re-read it and reply.

so we humans could see him go through it?

how many humans saw him go through it exactly?we,r relying on this story being passed round the world because as far as i,m aware not every human on earth witnessed it and i know in my town if someone at top of town has been assaulted by the time the story has reached the bottom a murder has happened.

Hey Sparky -
This was 2000 years ago. That is why the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit - a reference of what happened for all future people. Once can believe if they wish and others will just dismiss it. Some people don't want to believe. Some scoff at it and dead set on not accepting it as truth. People don't want to give in, to live under a God and His authority. The thing is when you do accept Jesus as your Savior then you no longer think that way. Your heart changes. You realize you aren't a puppet any more than before. There were people who witnessed the crucifiction that didn't' change their beliefs, they didn't change in any way. Sometimes we have to look at the evidence presented through history. There have been archeological finds that prove people existed as noted in the Bible. The Dead Sea scrolls were found in a modern day and the words match the portions of the Bible it relates to, word for word. Some times people harden their hearts. Moses delivered the people from Egypt, he parted the Red Sea, the pillar of fire led the way for 40 years, food rained down for the people for 40 years. Moses struck a rock and spring water poured forth. With these believers who were told by Moses he was going to free them with the help of God and then witnessing these miracles day in and day out for 40 years even the physical evidence wasn't enough to keep them focused. How much harder is it for us in this day and age? Sometimes we have to open our heart and pray to God to prove Himself to us if we truly are seeking for the truth. So in the end it's always a personal decision. You can't go by what others believe, you can't go by sometimes pure black and white, sometimes we just need to have that personal talk with God and open our hearts to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you as real. I read recently that Mother Theresa who commited her entire life and being to serving God struggled with faith. Even those who live the most devoted life struggle with faith. We are just human with all our imperfections and doubts and confusion and the devil is always at our side wanting to trick us up and make us feel unworthy and that this possibly can't be true. Why can't it be true? I came from somewhere. I can make a cake one day and mess it up the next even though I've made it all my life - so who am I to think there can't be some being, an almighty God, that created me to work so wonderously in my human body, who created birds and trees and the ability to use our minds to create. We can create but we are always limited. This is too lengthy but I feel it all ties together with your question. I mean if people in this day and age still question if man really went to the moon then with all our present day technology and independent mindset - it's easy to see why people wouldn't believe Jesus existed, died on the cross.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


Most Christians would probably respond with this bible verse:

"The wages of sin is death" - Romans 6:23


So, they would say in order for God to be a "righteous" and good "God/Judge" it made since that death had to be given for the wages of sin.

What DOESN'T make sense, is that God is also supposed to be "Love", merciful, forgiving... so if forgiving exist then why would the punishment still be given?

Sometimes a human judge in court will give mercy and the person is free to go. God is supposed to be the essence of love...

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You believe in something that is illogical, and the fact you can't explain why god chose to kill his son to forgive sins means you do not understand it, you just accept it.

I wonder why you just accept it? Does it have to do with fire by any chance?

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

The statement you made about no evidence for.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You believe in something that is illogical, and the fact you can't explain why god chose to kill his son to forgive sins means you do not understand it, you just accept it.

I wonder why you just accept it? Does it have to do with fire by any chance?

I explained in earlier in this thread.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What evidence is there that Jesus died for the sins of the world?

Originally posted by ccseagull
Hi Sparky
so jesus died for our sins and sees them and loves the sinner more than we,ll ever know?

couldn,t god just have done that without sending his son down to get murdered for our sins?mean hes all ready created everything hes suppose to have created so its not like hes busy.

Yes God could have changed everything without sending His son to die for us. Thinking from a human viewpoint perhaps God sent His son so that we would realize how much He loves us. If God can sacrifice His own son then He must love us as He was willing to sacrifice a part of Himself. That's how much He loved us. And ultimately if Jesus was able to live the perfect life as a human then God would have a true sacrifice instead of a replacement sacrifice without ongoing redeeming power. This is what I think God was thinking. How else would we be able to relate? If God gave us all jewels we would quicklly find something else of value, if God provided for our every need we would still be disatisfied. Adam and Eve had everything but they lost it all - their spiritual being and were now prone to sickness, aging, death. Humankind is never happy or content, we always want more. We hurt others and we get manipulated, we hurt ourselves, we find fault with ourselves, we make mistakes and every little thing we do leads to loss or pain to ourselves and others and on and on and on and on.

God is never too busy. He is God. He is bigger than anything. He created everything we know. In fact He's created an eternity for us that will continuously amaze us for all time. It's waiting for us. And those times when we feel He isn't listening or answering our prayers in the end when we can look back on the entire situationk from start to complete end we can then see how He was there all along helping us. Are these ways for us to grow, learn, to instill further trust? Or to have experiences in order to help others? Again I don't know. I like to think so. And in the end I believe that until I have lived out this human life I will do my best and know that there is an end. I live in earthly time. I know that there is an eternity of pure love and acceptance and clear thinking waiting for me. This is my belief. I don't have a perfect life and have struggled with a lifetime of issues, just as everyone else in this world. But thinking on my life and trying to understand why certain things have happened and during a specific situation when I feel like I am alone I now know I am never alone because I can see the hand of God in all I have ever gone through. I have lived long enough to see this and to believe it. This is coming from my own perspective and so I am not speaking for anyone else. But I do believe that God is always working in our lives and is always there for us, we just have to ask Jesus to guide us, love us, help us. Hugs to you Sparky.

you say jesus lived the perfect life?if thats the perfect life then mine aint as bad as i thought

so has the world become a better place through his sacrifice?no any idiot would see that ,so if hes there then whys he not got back involved cause if you ask me the worlds in a kinda serious messed up place and probably has been since he was suppose to have sacrificed everything for our sins.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

The statement you made about no evidence for.

ok give me conclusive evidence he exists or any of it is true.

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

The statement you made about no evidence for.

ok give me conclusive evidence he exists or any of it is true.

Not even atheist historians deny He existed.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What evidence is there that Jesus died for the sins of the world?

His death is the most documented death in human history.

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by ccseagull
Hi Sparky
so jesus died for our sins and sees them and loves the sinner more than we,ll ever know?

couldn,t god just have done that without sending his son down to get murdered for our sins?mean hes all ready created everything hes suppose to have created so its not like hes busy.

Yes God could have changed everything without sending His son to die for us. Thinking from a human viewpoint perhaps God sent His son so that we would realize how much He loves us. If God can sacrifice His own son then He must love us as He was willing to sacrifice a part of Himself. That's how much He loved us. And ultimately if Jesus was able to live the perfect life as a human then God would have a true sacrifice instead of a replacement sacrifice without ongoing redeeming power. This is what I think God was thinking. How else would we be able to relate? If God gave us all jewels we would quicklly find something else of value, if God provided for our every need we would still be disatisfied. Adam and Eve had everything but they lost it all - their spiritual being and were now prone to sickness, aging, death. Humankind is never happy or content, we always want more. We hurt others and we get manipulated, we hurt ourselves, we find fault with ourselves, we make mistakes and every little thing we do leads to loss or pain to ourselves and others and on and on and on and on.

God is never too busy. He is God. He is bigger than anything. He created everything we know. In fact He's created an eternity for us that will continuously amaze us for all time. It's waiting for us. And those times when we feel He isn't listening or answering our prayers in the end when we can look back on the entire situationk from start to complete end we can then see how He was there all along helping us. Are these ways for us to grow, learn, to instill further trust? Or to have experiences in order to help others? Again I don't know. I like to think so. And in the end I believe that until I have lived out this human life I will do my best and know that there is an end. I live in earthly time. I know that there is an eternity of pure love and acceptance and clear thinking waiting for me. This is my belief. I don't have a perfect life and have struggled with a lifetime of issues, just as everyone else in this world. But thinking on my life and trying to understand why certain things have happened and during a specific situation when I feel like I am alone I now know I am never alone because I can see the hand of God in all I have ever gone through. I have lived long enough to see this and to believe it. This is coming from my own perspective and so I am not speaking for anyone else. But I do believe that God is always working in our lives and is always there for us, we just have to ask Jesus to guide us, love us, help us. Hugs to you Sparky.

you say jesus lived the perfect life?if thats the perfect life then mine aint as bad as i thought

so has the world become a better place through his sacrifice?no any idiot would see that ,so if hes there then whys he not got back involved cause if you ask me the worlds in a kinda serious messed up place and probably has been since he was suppose to have sacrificed everything for our sins.

Yes and no. It's become a better world for us believers. We still experience all that any non believer does. But we have comfort and peace in our hearts and minds because we trust God is with us and helping us. He is still involved but not physically with us. He has provided the Holy Spirit to live within us to be the voice of discernment (to tell right from wrong, and to tell if we can trust someone/something or not). The world is HUGELY messed up. We believers see this, live it, and we wait for Jesus is coming back. The book of Revelations is the last book in the Bible. It is the most terrifying book because this is mankind's future. The world is messed up because the devil has free reign and is always involved and interfering in our lives. Revelations shows what will happen. We must keep our eye on Israel - that is key. Israel still rejects Jesus as being the Messiah. They are still waiting for their Messiah. However God has a promise with the Israelites and He will protect them. There are things to still happen. It is prophecy by God. Once I am done with this earthly life I will be free, I will be with God where my spirit belongs. It's not an escape (although some view it as such), it is a return to where we belong. Like a missing piece of puzzle that is finally returned. Jesus did sacrifice Himself for us. Spiritually. When we accept Jesus as our Savior we now belong to Jesus. Physically we are on this earth as is our mind but remember we are really spiritual beings caught in a flesh body. Our perfect reality is coming.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

The statement you made about no evidence for.

ok give me conclusive evidence he exists or any of it is true.

Not even atheist historians deny He existed.

Well, idiots like Richard Carrier do.

I still don't understand how he ever conned Columbia into giving him a degree

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sparky31

 

I don't agree with your first statement, not at all.

well explain to me why?and exactly what statement your talking about.

The statement you made about no evidence for.

ok give me conclusive evidence he exists or any of it is true.

Not even atheist historians deny He existed.

Not true.

His death is the most documented death in human history.

Also, not true. Outside of the Bible, there is no evidence of his death. Even the Bible leaves one to wonder if he didn't survive his ordeal, since he was up and about, eating, talking and letting people touch in still fresh injuries. I think, taking the crucifixion story at face value, the evidence says he didn't die on the cross at all.