Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.

I think the idea here is to show us, teach us a lesson about the err of our ways.

The problem, when you look at it deeply is because god is all knowing, it suggests a masterful manipulation. Although that would be addressed by Christians saying that since we have free will, god has to give us an example for us to choose for ourselves.

But then again we are faced with god being all knowing and omnipotent. So if he created us with these faults, he knew before hand everything that was going to transpire and we never really had free will to begin with.

In the end it just turns to back and forth by atheists and christians.

A very boring argument that never ends.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


It wasn't just for forgiveness,but to thwart the devil and to release those who were in Hades/ shoals /paradise.

A very boring argument that never ends.

But why are you commenting if the topic is so BORING?

Originally posted by Kreyvic
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

It wasn't just for forgiveness,but to thwart the devil and to release those who were in Hades/ shoals /paradise.

Did Jesus have to die first, before he could enter Hades? How come the devil and sin are still alive and well?

What if jesus would of had a daughter??

I don't get why some religious people idolize the crucified jesus instead of just a normal looking jesus.
Can someone help shed some light on this?

Originally posted by Kreyvic
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

It wasn't just for forgiveness,but to thwart the devil and to release those who were in Hades/ shoals /paradise.

Err, okay.. EVEN BETTER. So, let me rephrase part of my initial question.. Why did god feel the need/desire to send his son to earth to be betrayed, tortured, and then crucified in order to a: forgive us for our sins b: "thwart the devil" c: "release those who were in hades/ (actually the name of one of greek mythology's 'gods' and where he ruled) "shoals"(?)/paradise ?

HOW would sending his only son to be tortured and then killed on a cross do the above? I just don't understand.. Am I missing something? God + Son ÷ Sending one to be tortured and killed, knowingly= God being able to or having the cause/desire to forgive humans of their sins (which he created them with), the thwarting of the devil, and the release of individuals who are in another mythological god's underworld/shoals/paradise? That equaton just seems a bit... err... inconsequental to me...

Originally posted by ElOmen
What if jesus would of had a daughter??

I don't get why some religious people idolize the crucified jesus instead of just a normal looking jesus.
Can someone help shed some light on this?

I am honestly not sure why. either.. It really is highly popular, hell, if one with no knowledge of christianity were to go into a catholic's house and see all of the jesus on the cross/death memorabilia they would probably think that they were in the home of some sort of s & m person or something..

Of course, they do it because it is the sign of this great forgiveness which occurred because of it and because jesus gave his life for all of the things that christian say occurred because of his doing so (from the forgiveness of our sins to some sort of devil thwarting in hades or something)... And that in it's self makes NO sense to me, let alone their idolizing of such an event..

The Bible says that God the Father placed all our sin on His Son and He died for all our sin. So the Father punished the Son for all our sin. All throughout scripture God does things that don't make sense to us, but it says His ways are not our ways.

It's because you see in addition to being omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient - god is evidently bipolar.
It does beg the question, why god, being of course "God", just change whatever rule He made that requires a human sacrifice before forgiveness can be given?

Your postulate is absolutely correct: the entire concept just doesn't make any logical sense - but you'll just have to take tat on faith!

ganjoa

Let me try..

Connection between God and people were broken. People have sinned ever since the days of Adam and Eve and God´s sinless nature and essence can´t allow to anyone who has sins front him... therefor for God to get that connection back with people he had to use someone who is sinfree and who can take all sins from all people and all times to his shoulders. So God gave his only son to do this task.

Why he had to die is about justice, punishment of sin is death ( Genesis ) and damnation. Therefor Jesus had to die to take our sins for our salvation.

My god, my god......why have you forsaken me?


or


Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The Bible says that God the Father placed all our sin on His Son and He died for all our sin. So the Father punished the Son for all our sin. All throughout scripture God does things that don't make sense to us, but it says His ways are not our ways.

Yeah...

And you find that completely logical and sensible? For god to for whatever reason, feel the need one day (perhaps out of boredom?) to impregnate a virgin with his son, and from the instant that he was 'alive' put all of the sin of his creations (humans) onto him, and then 'punishing' him (for- once again his creation's sins) via betrayal, torture, and brutal murder, and doing all of the above so that he felt like forgiving his creation for something that he preemptively created them with?

That really makes no sense.. I mean, the bible says that he made everything in 7 days and was apparently pretty relaxed during the whole process, deciding to take a vacation for a day and all, is there some sort of lost text that describes what had to be done in order for the creation of anything and everything (IN THE FIRST PLACE) to take place? Did the planet of jupiter face a castration or something, surely?

Stolen from an old post of mine:

In that moment of crucifixion, God took all the sins of the world -- every sin in the past, every sin in the future -- and took them upon himself.

Christians believe that Jesus did this for every one, in a tragically real sense -- he loves you so much that if everyone else in the world was perfect, free from sin, and had no need for redemption, he'd have gone to the cross anyway, just for you. You didn't ask for it, you might not even want it, but it's there for you, regardless.

As to why it had to happen, I like St. Anselm of Canterbury's view of "satisfaction." God cannot just wave away sin -- that is acquiescing to evil, saying that actions and intentions are of no consequence, so evil "wins". So a price must be paid to merit salvation, to meet the justice of satisfaction.

For Anselm, a Middle Ages theologian, different crimes required different levels of satisfaction, based on who they were committed against -- a crime against the king was far more serious than a crime against a peasant. This is still often the case -- a man who hits another man is viewed differently than a man who strikes a woman, or a child.

In sinning, we have committed a crime against an infinite being, and have thus incurred a penalty that would require an infinite repayment to meet satisfaction. A debt that we can obviously never pay, a debt that could never be paid on our behalf by anyone. Except an infinite being.

So, we sin against God, God pays the infinite price to meet satisfaction, and, if we accept it, we are "clothed in Christ's righteousness" when judgement comes -- Christ, effectively stands up on our behalf, says "I've got this covered", and we're in the pink.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


I don't have to find it completely logical and sensible. The logical and sensible thing would have been for a Holy and righteous God to end human existence at the first sin. So I'm thankful He does things that don't make the logical sense on paper.

Originally posted by ganjoa
It's because you see in addition to being omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient - god is evidently bipolar.
It does beg the question, why god, being of course "God", just change whatever rule He made that requires a human sacrifice before forgiveness can be given?

Your postulate is absolutely correct: the entire concept just doesn't make any logical sense - but you'll just have to take tat on faith!

ganjoa

He became a Man and took the punishment that we deserve. He did it in our place. That's the epitome of love, to sacrifice oneself for friends.

Originally posted by dollukka
Let me try..

Connection between God and people were broken. People have sinned ever since the days of Adam and Eve and God´s sinless nature and essence can´t allow to anyone who has sins front him... therefor for God to get that connection back with people he had to use someone who is sinfree and who can take all sins from all people and all times to his shoulders. So God gave his only son to do this task.

Why he had to die is about justice, punishment of sin is death ( Genesis ) and damnation. Therefor Jesus had to die to take our sins for our salvation.

edit on 29-6-2013 by dollukka because: (no reason given)

Eh, still makes no sense.. God created the garden, god created the tree,god created them..
"8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
God is "all knowing", he knew of their fate and what would happen.. Speaking of "a sinful nature", would it not be considered a sin for one to kill? To kill and plague (as he did throughout the old testament)? Was that something that he found interesting and decided to copy from us and THEN deem to be sins or...?

The Bible also says that the message of the cross is "foolishness" to most people.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

I don't have to find it completely logical and sensible. The logical and sensible thing would have been for a Holy and righteous God to end human existence at the first sin. So I'm thankful He does things that don't make the logical sense on paper. He became a Man and took the punishment that we deserve. He did it in our place. That's the epitome of love, to sacrifice oneself for friends.

edit on 29-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The logical and sensible thing would have been for a holy and righteous god to have never created something that is prone to sin in the first place. Or are you saying that god made a mistake when he created us AND the apparent source and beneficiary of evil and sin (the devil)?

God created us in his image (or our- plural?).. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Hmmm...

There is NO logic. It's insanity codified into dogma. Since both the god and the son supposedly knew what Act III was going to be all along, and babies are considered to be sinners-in-waiting, the whole thing is dismally evil. What kind of god produces a child only to have that child murdered as some kind of blood sacrifice for the ages?

How about we stop lying to children and ourselves and start trying to fathom the universe by telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? That includes the government to the people.