Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

reply to post by ganjoa

Your postulate is absolutely correct: the entire concept just doesn't make any logical sense - but you'll just have to take tat on faith!

Anyone who does is having faith in a cult rather then what the Bible says.
There is a theory and you can look it up in Wikipedia, which is called "penal substitutionary atonement theory".
This is a theory originally concocted in the Dark Ages by Augustine. It was resurrected in the Reformation and then adopted by Evangelicals, and later refined in the 1870's.

reply to post by adjensen


I guess that means the quotes from your Christian site where he supposedly argues against reincarnation were fabricated as well, right? Of course a Christian site like the one you linked to wouldn't post that quote, it would be against their argument.

Have you gone through all of Origen's works and have verified that they aren't part of them? If not, you are only assuming based on your bias. Prove they aren't contained in his actual works and you may have a point.

reply to post by dollukka

Connection between God and people were broken. People have sinned ever since the days of Adam and Eve and God´s sinless nature and essence can´t allow to anyone who has sins front him... therefor for God to get that connection back with people he had to use someone who is sinfree and who can take all sins from all people and all times to his shoulders. So God gave his only son to do this task.

This part is OK, in my opinion.
The second part that I did not quote, may be a little off, also in my opinion.
Jesus did take sin upon himself, and as Paul stated in Second Corinthians 15, he was made sin for us. Jesus did not take sinfulness in order to somehow pay for them, but to raise up people who are from no fault of their own, sinful by nature. God accepted Jesus despite his being accursed. If we repent of our overt sins and believe in jesus and the God who sent him from Heaven, then we can be forgiven, and for the sake of Jesus, be given a spirit of God to dwell in us to lift up from our sinfulness and into righteousness in Christ as joining into the congregation of Jesus.

reply to post by adjensen

In that moment of crucifixion, God took all the sins of the world -- every sin in the past, every sin in the future -- and took them upon himself.

That may be something that your church says is so, on their own authority, rather than using any scripture that says that.
You could conceivably make a theory for that, by blending in ideas from the Old Testament, but it is not something actually taught in the Hew Testament.

jesus came up with all kinds of awesome things but nobody listened to him then either. 2000 years ago, he instructed us that slavery was done. finished. no more slaves. 2000 years ago he said men and women were equal. he was so far ahead of his time, we still haven't caught up to him yet.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

So I'm thankful He does things that don't make the logical sense on paper.

I'm thankful that certain people wishing how God is supposed to be cannot actually make God that way, no matter how hard they want it.

The logical and sensible thing would have been for a Holy and righteous God to end human existence . . .

I am glad that we have a loving God, the one that Jesus taught us about, rather than that horrible character in the Old Testament who actually tried to kill everyone, according to the story.

reply to post by jmdewey60


If you remember the Genesis 6 account God killed the Nephillim with the flood.

It's not supposed to make any sense. It is all bout blind trust. There is nothing to debate. Want to piss off a Christian, start talking logic at them. They'll hate your ass.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He became a Man and took the punishment that we deserve. He did it in our place. That's the epitome of love, to sacrifice oneself for friends.

There is no great and awful entity who demands God to sacrifice his son as payment for some sort of debt incurred through people sinning.
The God that the New Testament tells us about can forgive past sins of those who repent, by simply forgetting them.
Jesus himself forgave sins of those he met in his ministry before he died, so one was not dependant on the other, but he did it in God's name.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Bible says that God the Father placed all our sin on His Son and He died for all our sin. So the Father punished the Son for all our sin. All throughout scripture God does things that don't make sense to us, but it says His ways are not our ways.

The Bible doesn't say any of that, sorry, I think that you just heard that from a preacher on a YouTube video and never checked the Bible to see if it really said that.

Isaiah 53:6.

"..the Lord hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

If you remember the Genesis 6 account God killed the Nephillim with the flood.

Do you want to use some cult-taught hocus pocus to tell us that the Nephillim was some supernatural beings?
If they were, then a flood would not have killed them.
According to the story, it is calculated that a million people would have been killed.
A lot of collateral damage, I would say, and does not say much about your god.

Originally posted by ezwip
It's not supposed to make any sense. It is all bout blind trust. There is nothing to debate. Want to piss off a Christian, start talking logic at them. They'll hate your ass.

That's quite absurd. I study classic logic and take part in formal and informal debate.

How much of Plato have you read, please share.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If you remember the Genesis 6 account God killed the Nephillim with the flood.

Do you want to use some cult-taught hocus pocus to tell us that the Nephillim was some supernatural beings?
If they were, then a flood would not have killed them.
According to the story, it is calculated that a million people would have been killed.
A lot of collateral damage, I would say, and does not say much about your god.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Genesis 6 says God sent the flood to kill the Nephillim.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Isaiah 53:6.

"..the Lord hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all."

That is in the Old Testament, and is symbolic of those who were led into captivity by the Babylonians though they were faultless and it was the sins of the common people who created the calamity, that is, according to the priest-craft who would have written that.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Isaiah 53:6.

"..the Lord hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all."

That is in the Old Testament, and is symbolic of those who were led into captivity by the Babylonians though they were faultless and it was the sins of the common people who created the calamity, that is, according to the priest-craft who would have written that.

Isaiah 53 is in the Bible. You should know this. So when you make statements to the effect that the Bible does not say something, I can show you that it says precisely that. Isaiah 53:6. And Jesus affirmed Isaiah.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I have no idea what you're talking about. Genesis 6 says God sent the flood to kill the Nephillim.

I am sorry that you haven'y been able to free yourself from the delusion that the demons of your cult has you trapped in.

there are 2 different floods mixed together in genesis. the first hint is genesis 1:2
the land was already there, it was just covered in water. it was the end of the ice age and a global flood.
this is not the same flood noah endured. noah was only required to take 32 animals. but the flood that was
part of the ice age, was global, and it was during this flood that the dna of various animals and races, had to be
saved enmasse. in the flood chapters, these two events are mixed in together.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Isaiah 53 is in the Bible. You should know this.

If you were a normal Christian rather than a cultist, you would know that there is an old testament which was written by a now defunct religion.
The New Testament is what Christians go by, not the old one.
If it is not quoted in the NT, then it has no prophetic authority.

Originally posted by ezwip
It's not supposed to make any sense. It is all bout blind trust. There is nothing to debate. Want to piss off a Christian, start talking logic at them. They'll hate your ass.

let's talk logic. i'm ready.
begin. you can even start a new thread on it

Originally posted by ezwip
It's not supposed to make any sense. It is all bout blind trust. There is nothing to debate. Want to piss off a Christian, start talking logic at them. They'll hate your ass.

I find this statement fascinating because it is ridiculous. Tell us, what secret of the universe have you been made privy too? I'd like to know. Only a wicked man sits and devises plans to make people angry, for his own enjoyment.