It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by ccseagull
Hey Sparky -
This was 2000 years ago. That is why the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit - a reference of what happened for all future people. Once can believe if they wish and others will just dismiss it. Some people don't want to believe. Some scoff at it and dead set on not accepting it as truth. People don't want to give in, to live under a God and His authority. The thing is when you do accept Jesus as your Savior then you no longer think that way. Your heart changes. You realize you aren't a puppet any more than before. There were people who witnessed the crucifiction that didn't' change their beliefs, they didn't change in any way. Sometimes we have to look at the evidence presented through history. There have been archeological finds that prove people existed as noted in the Bible. The Dead Sea scrolls were found in a modern day and the words match the portions of the Bible it relates to, word for word. Some times people harden their hearts. Moses delivered the people from Egypt, he parted the Red Sea, the pillar of fire led the way for 40 years, food rained down for the people for 40 years. Moses struck a rock and spring water poured forth. With these believers who were told by Moses he was going to free them with the help of God and then witnessing these miracles day in and day out for 40 years even the physical evidence wasn't enough to keep them focused. How much harder is it for us in this day and age? Sometimes we have to open our heart and pray to God to prove Himself to us if we truly are seeking for the truth. So in the end it's always a personal decision. You can't go by what others believe, you can't go by sometimes pure black and white, sometimes we just need to have that personal talk with God and open our hearts to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you as real. I read recently that Mother Theresa who commited her entire life and being to serving God struggled with faith. Even those who live the most devoted life struggle with faith. We are just human with all our imperfections and doubts and confusion and the devil is always at our side wanting to trick us up and make us feel unworthy and that this possibly can't be true. Why can't it be true? I came from somewhere. I can make a cake one day and mess it up the next even though I've made it all my life - so who am I to think there can't be some being, an almighty God, that created me to work so wonderously in my human body, who created birds and trees and the ability to use our minds to create. We can create but we are always limited. This is too lengthy but I feel it all ties together with your question. I mean if people in this day and age still question if man really went to the moon then with all our present day technology and independent mindset - it's easy to see why people wouldn't believe Jesus existed, died on the cross.edit on 29/6/13 by ccseagull because: cut and pasted original question, hit submit too fast.
Originally posted by BlackGetsuga
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Except reincarnation is not biblical in any fashion.
When Jesus resurrected, he returned in his own body, completely healed, not a different body. When Lazarus was resurrected, he was returned in his own body, not a different one. When the prophet Micah spoke of a man being resurrected after coming into contact with the bones of Elisha, that man was returned in his own body. Not one instance of resurrection in the scriptures accompanied a person returning in a different body, or coming back in the form of a cockroach or bullfrog or another human.
Reincarnation takes you down a path to thinking you pre-existed like God, which Jesus did not teach at all. There is only One who Was and Is and Is to Come. People claiming any semblance to Christianity that advocate reincarnation are misinformed.
The reason why jews and christians both have a strong dislike for cremation, is because when the Lord resurrects us, he'll return us to our own bodies, completely healed and like the angels which is why ossuaries were used for jews and early christians and why christians often desire to be buried facing the Mt of Olives, so we can see the direction our Savior returns and the resurrection comes. If reincarnation were true then there would have been no need to keep a body intact and the use of ossuaries and tombs to protect remains would be a pointless waste of time and energy.edit on 30-6-2013 by BlackGetsuga because: (no reason given)
I'm not telling you there is no god, just use the words in the bible as your rescue from being brainwashed. It has safety nets ... such as allow it to speak to your heart and come with your own interpretations ...
Know that man has been manipulating the messages for control of the masses for millenia. See the messages of peace, love, and acceptance, and cast aside the messages of hate, vengeance, and discrimination out.
If you can't walk away with pure love and acceptance of everyone, then you've failed to understand the scripture.
There is no logic in the sacrifice. A creator needs nothing but his/her compassion to forgive, not bloodshed.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
Origen taught about the pre-existence of souls
and that souls changed bodies with each incarnation.
Sounds a lot like reincarnation to me.
The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! (Source)
before Jesus, you had to sacrifice an animal, depending on the sin committed to be able to be forgiven.
but that was hard for many poor people and the laws and everything put into place about that were being abused by religious higher ups, which is why God created a way for everyone. all you have to do it acknowledge the sacrifice made for YOU.
The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:
1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.
2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.
At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.
In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.
I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.
That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.
According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.
I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by undo
I, for one, am interested. Please continue.
Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
The Second Council of Constantinople occurred hundreds of years after the death Origen, during the time in which the concept of reincarnation was banned as heresy and Origen's writing were being burned, altered and interpolated.
There is no denying the citation quoted by 3enlighten3 describes, as translated by Jerome, what any intellectually honest scholar would attribute to the transmutation of the soul, reincarnation.
If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it, then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrawise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing.
Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions?
So, either Origen flipped a 180, or his writings have been tampered with. Which makes more sense?