Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

reply to post by TheIceQueen


i think it is a thing that makes more sense to people of old testament laws. Jesus was the "lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world". before Jesus, you had to sacrifice an animal, depending on the sin committed to be able to be forgiven. but that was hard for many poor people and the laws and everything put into place about that were being abused by religious higher ups, which is why God created a way for everyone. all you have to do it acknowledge the sacrifice made for YOU. the animals that used to be sacrificed had to be spotless, without blemish and pure/clean. back then you were to give your firstfruits, your firstborn. it was showing that you trusted and feared/loved God enough to give to him first. so when God saw how rough we were doing, he knew we needed a savior, not more rules. God's first (and only) son was sacrificed for US.. God's "firstfruits". a pure clean, blemishless and spotless sacrifice. the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
today we live in a where we dont know about having to kill an animal and sacrifice it on an alter. it sounds strange and foreign to us, but back then, it was as relevant as ipads, tv and internet are to us today.

hope that helps a bit =]

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by Seed76

 

Hold on. Jesus never volunteered remember.

Sure he did. He said He came from heaven for the purpose.

It just makes for good story telling. The masses are going to reinterpret the story however convenient it is for them personally. Rationalization is one of our most powerful natural attributes, after all.

What's really entertaining is watching a truly devout person's face contort with confusion after you tell them the previous statement, with the addendum that you do actually believe in a Creator, and that he/she just doesn't conform to the precise definition that they fervently live by.

A huge factor is also fear of death. I know plenty of people that refuse to even discuss the subject, because they are so terrified of not knowing what to expect. For these types, and they seem to be everywhere, religion is like a anesthetizing salve for their consciousness. It's not every person who can look at our existence subjectively, and make a rational determination about who they are, where they are going, and what becomes of us after death.

It's far simpler to bandwagon along with the majority than to think independently, and not rock the boat. People want an answer that makes them feel secure enough to focus on living, and the social acceptance that comes along with belonging to a larger group.

Originally posted by ccseagull
Hey Sparky -
This was 2000 years ago. That is why the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit - a reference of what happened for all future people. Once can believe if they wish and others will just dismiss it. Some people don't want to believe. Some scoff at it and dead set on not accepting it as truth. People don't want to give in, to live under a God and His authority. The thing is when you do accept Jesus as your Savior then you no longer think that way. Your heart changes. You realize you aren't a puppet any more than before. There were people who witnessed the crucifiction that didn't' change their beliefs, they didn't change in any way. Sometimes we have to look at the evidence presented through history. There have been archeological finds that prove people existed as noted in the Bible. The Dead Sea scrolls were found in a modern day and the words match the portions of the Bible it relates to, word for word. Some times people harden their hearts. Moses delivered the people from Egypt, he parted the Red Sea, the pillar of fire led the way for 40 years, food rained down for the people for 40 years. Moses struck a rock and spring water poured forth. With these believers who were told by Moses he was going to free them with the help of God and then witnessing these miracles day in and day out for 40 years even the physical evidence wasn't enough to keep them focused. How much harder is it for us in this day and age? Sometimes we have to open our heart and pray to God to prove Himself to us if we truly are seeking for the truth. So in the end it's always a personal decision. You can't go by what others believe, you can't go by sometimes pure black and white, sometimes we just need to have that personal talk with God and open our hearts to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you as real. I read recently that Mother Theresa who commited her entire life and being to serving God struggled with faith. Even those who live the most devoted life struggle with faith. We are just human with all our imperfections and doubts and confusion and the devil is always at our side wanting to trick us up and make us feel unworthy and that this possibly can't be true. Why can't it be true? I came from somewhere. I can make a cake one day and mess it up the next even though I've made it all my life - so who am I to think there can't be some being, an almighty God, that created me to work so wonderously in my human body, who created birds and trees and the ability to use our minds to create. We can create but we are always limited. This is too lengthy but I feel it all ties together with your question. I mean if people in this day and age still question if man really went to the moon then with all our present day technology and independent mindset - it's easy to see why people wouldn't believe Jesus existed, died on the cross.

edit on 29/6/13 by ccseagull because: cut and pasted original question, hit submit too fast.

very interesting thread
please break up long posts into paragraphs...makes it much easier for us to read...thanks!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Except reincarnation is not biblical in any fashion. When Jesus resurrected, he returned in his own body, completely healed, not a different body. When Lazarus was resurrected, he was returned in his own body, not a different one. When the prophet Micah spoke of a man being resurrected after coming into contact with the bones of Elisha, that man was returned in his own body. Not one instance of resurrection in the scriptures accompanied a person returning in a different body, or coming back in the form of a cockroach or bullfrog or another human. Reincarnation takes you down a path to thinking you pre-existed like God, which Jesus did not teach at all. There is only One who Was and Is and Is to Come. People claiming any semblance to Christianity that advocate reincarnation are misinformed.

The reason why jews and christians both have a strong dislike for cremation, is because when the Lord resurrects us, he'll return us to our own bodies, completely healed and like the angels which is why ossuaries were used for jews and early christians and why christians often desire to be buried facing the Mt of Olives, so we can see the direction our Savior returns and the resurrection comes. If reincarnation were true then there would have been no need to keep a body intact and the use of ossuaries and tombs to protect remains would be a pointless waste of time and energy.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


He didn't volunteer to be nailed to a cross.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


no, the logical and sensible thing is for an all powerful, all knowledgeable, omnipotent, timeless, supernatural being to have more compassion than humans, and be able to forgive without needing sacrifice (as in lambs, etc in old testament, and his only son in new testament).

There is no excuse. There is no reasoning. 'His' ways are not our ways sounds like the excuse a sadist would use to justify their actions, not an all loving, peaceful force.

Would you send your child pet to an oven to burn for the rest of its existence for a few mistakes? No? Then you just showed more compassion than the god the tell you about in the bible.

I'm not telling you there is no god, just use the words in the bible as your rescue from being brainwashed. It has safety nets ... such as allow it to speak to your heart and come with your own interpretations ... discard the chaff. Know that man has been manipulating the messages for control of the masses for millenia. See the messages of peace, love, and acceptance, and cast aside the messages of hate, vengeance, and discrimination out.

If you can't walk away with pure love and acceptance of everyone, then you've failed to understand the scripture.

If anything, churches who worship the cross, the crucifix, mary, etc are idol worshippers and need to step back and realize the message wasn't to pray to objects, but to be pure of heart.

The idea he had to die to save you is part of the manipulation. He taught you to be good people and do good things ... THAT is the message, not that he died so you can be absolved. He teaches you to love and not be greedy. To befriend people, not judge. The message is there, it is clear ... but people can't see it; they are blind because they want excuses to stay the same and be told exactly what to do ... instead of take the lead and change themselves to live in peace and happiness, to help each other and not covet the materialistic world.

There is no logic in the sacrifice. A creator needs nothing but his/her compassion to forgive, not bloodshed.

reply to post by research100


Thanks my dear, will do that. Didn't even consider

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist


well said

Originally posted by BlackGetsuga
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

Except reincarnation is not biblical in any fashion.

That is an easily challenged and uninformed statement.

When Jesus resurrected, he returned in his own body, completely healed, not a different body. When Lazarus was resurrected, he was returned in his own body, not a different one. When the prophet Micah spoke of a man being resurrected after coming into contact with the bones of Elisha, that man was returned in his own body. Not one instance of resurrection in the scriptures accompanied a person returning in a different body, or coming back in the form of a cockroach or bullfrog or another human.

So God needs a remnant of your DNA so that he can clone you into your resurrected body? Where is your soul, and your eternal life in the meantime?

Reincarnation takes you down a path to thinking you pre-existed like God, which Jesus did not teach at all. There is only One who Was and Is and Is to Come. People claiming any semblance to Christianity that advocate reincarnation are misinformed.

Another uninformed statement.

The reason why jews and christians both have a strong dislike for cremation, is because when the Lord resurrects us, he'll return us to our own bodies, completely healed and like the angels which is why ossuaries were used for jews and early christians and why christians often desire to be buried facing the Mt of Olives, so we can see the direction our Savior returns and the resurrection comes. If reincarnation were true then there would have been no need to keep a body intact and the use of ossuaries and tombs to protect remains would be a pointless waste of time and energy.

edit on 30-6-2013 by BlackGetsuga because: (no reason given)

So God needs a remnant of your DNA so that he can clone you into your resurrected body. Sure he does.

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist

I'm not telling you there is no god, just use the words in the bible as your rescue from being brainwashed. It has safety nets ... such as allow it to speak to your heart and come with your own interpretations ...

So in other words, "It has a safety net! It's called interpretation and cognitive dissonance! It's designed to be flawlessly rhetoric! You just have to believe! The all-magical faith will do the rest!"

Sounds like a bucket of cow pies to me.

Know that man has been manipulating the messages for control of the masses for millenia. See the messages of peace, love, and acceptance, and cast aside the messages of hate, vengeance, and discrimination out.

Why do you think the Bible was written to begin with? It may have started out with decent intentions, but that just makes it the perfect mixture of concrete and lies for paving the road to hell...

If you can't walk away with pure love and acceptance of everyone, then you've failed to understand the scripture.

Scripture doesn't even understand itself.

There is no logic in the sacrifice. A creator needs nothing but his/her compassion to forgive, not bloodshed.

And the ALL IMPORTANT QUESTION: Who guards the guard?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Origen taught about the pre-existence of souls

Yes, he did.

and that souls changed bodies with each incarnation.

No, he did not.

Sounds a lot like reincarnation to me.

That's well and good for you, but the fact that you want it to be about reincarnation doesn't mean that it is.

Origen wrote against reincarnation, specifically, for Pete's sakes.

The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! (Source)

I'm not going to re-post it here, but if you go read that source, you'll see a lengthy piece by Origen against reincarnation.

Hopefully that ends it, though given some people's ability to read and comprehend, probably not.

reply to post by jassie51289

before Jesus, you had to sacrifice an animal, depending on the sin committed to be able to be forgiven.

I committed murder! I stole a loaf of bread! I cursed my father! Oh no! I'm sinful! Wait, I have a perfect idea...let's go slaughter this innocent animal and burn its corpse in tribute! That will make everything alright!

...WHERE is the logic?

but that was hard for many poor people and the laws and everything put into place about that were being abused by religious higher ups, which is why God created a way for everyone. all you have to do it acknowledge the sacrifice made for YOU.

Here's what I don't get:

"God" created the world and everything in it.

Nothing happens without his consent.

Every person alive is in his jurisdiction and subject to his will.

With all of that taken into consideration, the situation looks a little like this:

The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.

With all of that said, what do we need to be forgiven for? A sin he allowed us to commit? He doesn't even have the decency to come down and give us a good spanking or at least tolerate a 60 Minutes interview. If he has shown such a distinct lack of interest in us, why should we care about his forgiveness?

Not to mention that without his role, sin wouldn't exist. Evil wouldn't exist. Sin and evil are both a part of his creation, his design, so when Jesus died for our sins, that was God making atonement for his own creation as far as I'm concerned. Jesus died for "God"s mistake. We don't need to be forgiven because we didn't invent evil, we just portrayed it because that's how we were designed. If anyone ought to be forgiven, it's God. Why? Because he invented evil even though he knew what would happen.

One more question: why doesn't anybody pray for Satan? If we're supposed to be loving and forgiving, why hasn't there been a single prayer for Satan? Surely if anyone needs it, it's him, right?

reply to post by adjensen


The Second Council of Constantinople occurred hundreds of years after the death Origen, during the time in which the concept of reincarnation was banned as heresy and Origen's writing were being burned, altered and interpolated.

There is no denying the citation quoted by 3enlighten3 describes, as translated by Jerome, what any intellectually honest scholar would attribute to the transmutation of the soul, reincarnation.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by undo

 

I, for one, am interested. Please continue.

well thanks. i was kinda hoping the op would respond.


the trees in the garden are related to genetics. the serpent in the tree is a metaphor for dna.
the tree of life is that part of dna that governs full body regeneration.
the tree of knowledge of good and evil is that part of dna that governs procreation.

when the way to the tree of life was blocked, it meant the dna for full body regeneration was nerfed, changed, locked up, removed. this is the same thing as the serpent losing its legs. the dna strands have to unzip to replicate and replication is needed in this instance for regeneration. so the dna for full body regeneration was either removed from the human genome or locked so the instructions for replication couldn't be read

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

The Second Council of Constantinople occurred hundreds of years after the death Origen, during the time in which the concept of reincarnation was banned as heresy and Origen's writing were being burned, altered and interpolated.

There is no denying the citation quoted by 3enlighten3 describes, as translated by Jerome, what any intellectually honest scholar would attribute to the transmutation of the soul, reincarnation.

Are you kidding? Origen flat out rejected reincarnation and specifically repudiated it by name as false doctrine:

"However, a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of Elijah"

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Link please!

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it, then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrawise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing.

Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions?

www.earlychristianwritings.com...
LINK

So, either Origen flipped a 180, or his writings have been tampered with. Which makes more sense?

reply to post by TheIceQueen


Something that most people dont consider is that being a labeled a sinner during Jesus' time was not taken lightly. Depending on the sin you and your family could be considered outcast by the community for life. Forgiveness of sins was a new concept. I studied the parables of Jesus in college theology courses. The professor was a former Jesuit priest. He presented Jesus as a man who saw his people suffering due to overbearing laws that provided for no forgiveness or recovery for those sinners that broke them. His parables show the lengths at which we should go through to love and FORGIVE ONE ANOTHER..He paid a terrible price for teaching what was consider a very radical way thinking at that time.
As far as him being a literal blood sacrifice for the sins of man, I think that misses the point of his message

reply to post by windword


That link has already been provided on this page.

Why do you seem to fail at clicking links people provide for you in a discussion? You did this to me the other day when we were talking about shepherds.

reply to post by windword

So, either Origen flipped a 180, or his writings have been tampered with. Which makes more sense?

You do realize you quoted from a written work of Origen criticizing the teachings of CLESUS don't you?