Woman Fatally Shot by Police at Cosco Handing Out Pizza Samples.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I have to agree and disagree. I understand your logic with the swat team. But i just dont get why its so hard to have them carry a spare mag filled with less than lethal ammo.

Do they really need 60+ lethal rounds?

If you cant get the job done with one or two rounds......you need to be reassigned to meter maid.
There is no need for spray and pray capability.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by MongusePro

Again i bring up the shoot 1st ask questions and assess later... unfortunately it's a growing trend.

I cannot argue that it at least appears to be a growing trend, and a trend that concerns me on a personal level when I hear about situations where the stun gun "didn't work." It will not work on a small percentage of the population, and I may well be in that small percentage. My own internal resistance is fairly high; the same 120VAC household current that shocks the Hades out of most people just gives me a slight tickle. Now, I have no idea how the taser power would affect me, as I have not had the same experience with them as I have with accidentally grabbing the wrong wires. Maybe it would disable me, maybe it would kill me (some cardiac conditions can be dormant), or maybe it would just tick me off that I had been shot.

If it did just tick me off, though, is that in itself enough to open the door for deadly force? If I am threatened with a taser, should I assume they mean a gun because the taser might not work? In such a situation, would I fight back against the threat to my very life where I might not have fought back without the threat?

Tasers were developed as an alternative to deadly force, but in reality they have the potential to be deadly in themselves. Police have (from my experience) not been trained in this aspect; the official story is that tasers are non-lethal and 100% effective, period. Evidence of inadequate training can be seen in stories where suspects are tasered, fail to meet demands for specific movements due to the effects of the taser, then are tasered again and again in an ill-begotten attempt to make them comply. This is an example of how those using the tasers are not adequately trained in their use and misuse and believe the official documentation designed to sell tasers. When confronted with evidence to the contrary (poor effect or serious injury), it is apparently just attributed to "one of those things."

So with the taser being "non-lethal", police are very apt to use it for even minor infractions; after all, it doesn't hurt anyone, but it does immobilize them. The dependency on tasers has also grown to the extent that if that taser does not work, too many police immediately take the next step and discharge their firearm.

This is a disturbing development and I do not see it as "cop-bashing." I see it as a dangerous, even deadly, social issue that is screaming for attention and yet is receiving none. We need training in the actual ability of tasers to assist in a situation, by third-party interests that will provide real hard information; we need inquiries into the firing of tasers similar to those conducted when a firearm is discharged, to make it more difficult on the officers when a taser is used; after all, that is the purpose of firearm discharge investigations. And finally, we need a little more common sense to be exercised by those who we have granted such powers to. Granny isn't threatening you because she cusses you out from her wheelchair, and she doesn't need to be tased to make sure she is no threat. The punk with a gun who you are about to have to shoot, though, sure, tase away and if that don't work, turn out his lights with a gun. In between, use a little common sense; everyone you meet is not a suspect.

Heh, sorry... didn't mean that to turn into a rant... but I guess it needed to be said.

TheRedneck

Couldn't agree more and although i do not live in the US people i love and the rest of my human brothers and sisters do.

It does make you wonder... What if im having a bad day and i'm put into this situation... what do i do... is there anyway to guarantee a 'safe' exit out of the situation?

Your point about tasers is also interesting. Is it just me or is the attitude of the US police force that it's more or less a toy that can and should be used anytime, were as back in the day a stern tone and the flick of a night stick would have done the trick.

A big issue at the moment is the level of respect for the police... The less respect the more the likelihood of a dangerous situation for the officer.. The more the likelihood the greater the means needed to quell the issues... It's a vicious circle.

reply to post by MongusePro

Those are the facts in which officers must use in judging the use of force.

Tueller Experiment
Sgt. Dennis Tueller of Salt Lake City Police Department conducted experiments (in 1983) which let to the conclusion that an attacker with a knife in his hand covers 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Therefore anything under 21 feet is considered to be in the zone of "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."
In other words a person with a knife or any edged weapon is a direct and imminent threat to you if that person is within 21 feet (7 yards). Most police officers, even with the gun already in hand, cannot hit a target twice before the "assailant" can cover 10 yards. The fact is it takes time to draw and fire a weapon, even for a trained shooter. A standard arrest can go wrong; a person can attack from short range without warning. In such situations your handgun is almost useless.

Excessive? It is really hard to tell either way as we simpley do not have all the information. I still stick to my theory that the woman may have had a medical episide of some type. It seems unusual that her behavior had changed so drastically so quickly.

Picking the correct "less than lethal option" can greatly change in how the situation played out. What would have happened if the officers chose to use a spray instead of the Taser? Picking the spray would have taken the Taser off the table as a backup. Reseach has shown, some types of OC/CS/Pepper spray couold actually ignite when an electrical charge of a Taser is applied secondly. It is not the compound as much as it is the propellant which ignites.
For less than lethal, it should have been Taser, spray, then lethal options. Like I said, there is not enough information to go on. Some departments do not allow officers to carry both spray and Taser. As a policy to prevent igniting a person. So, the only options the officers had was a Taser then lethal force.

It would be interesting to see the tape of this if there is one. If she was just sort of randomly waving the knife around talking to the benevolent monkey gods then whacking her might have been a bit of overkill - you could probably get a few shots at her with a taser or some pepper spray.

On the other hand, if she was doing backflips and slashing away at them like some rabid Hannibal Lecter on meth channeling the spirit of Jackie Chan, I can see shooting first and asking questions later.

Seriously, someone really determined with a knife at 10 feet can seriously screw up your day. Knives aren't as flashy or cinematic as a sidearm but they're as deadly if not more so, depending on luck, the knife and the wielder.

Originally posted by stirling
Woman shot for running with scissors...............hmmmmmmmm
The cops are badly trained poorly vetted bullies.
Bullies are COWARDS
they will just keep on shooting people till we change the requirments for service....
i am deadly serious folks
they are the wrong psyche profile for the job.....

indeed, fellow "nutter", look at all the same "sane" people,posting as usual
on these "police kill ____" threads

blaming the victim and judging them guilty without trial [police style]

all on the word of the actual murderers, which is always accepted without question and defended tooth and nail.

one wonders how much of the federal funds trough the Suinae is feeding from, is diverted towards online trolling.
of course some are merely Ovis aries.

but pay me no mind, as I am quite "Insane".

reply to post by shaneslaughta

Originally posted by shaneslaughta

 

I agree, its mere seconds to change your mag from FMJ to rubber balls. Even handguns can fire rubber ball ammo.

I didn't even know they had those. I thought they just had a special gun for the beanbags. I wouldn't think the handgun rubber bullets would be very effective, but several rubber bullets flying directly into your face from a shotgun, would probably slow you down a bit.





reply to post by Bedlam

Originally posted by Bedlam

I think it's a bit odd that a pizza sampler would be armed with scissors. Why would you carry scissors? I could see a knife, maybe, for cutting up the pizza.

One possibility might be that she was giving away coupons that needed to be separated from one another. Or maybe some sort of label.

reply to post by zysin5


Yeah, the thread has raised some interesting points overall and kept a good head about it.

Sadly this will likely happen again very soon. i wish i knew the answer but fear it won't be found until much more blood is spilt were it may have been avoided.

+1 Bonus points for Iron Maiden Avatar, my Gibson les paul enjoys them thoroughly .

Wow this is really disgusting that people are defending the cops.

Social engineering has come a long way. Instead of shooting her they could have easily just performed a take down and disarmed her, used a baton or pepper spray.

Holy hell how can you justify the death of a person like the police are in the right? If she had a gun and was shooting up the place then fine, but she was waving around a knife and scissors, and we don't know what kind of knife it was in the first place.

It's absolutely amazing that you people cant even conceive that the cops can bring someone down with a knife and scissors without having to use a gun. Sounds like they need to have actual training for cops without having to shoot people.

Just really really sad.


Oh and by the way, some of these posters defending the cops sound like pure evil....

They might as well be demons just like these guys. Karma's a bitch.

reply to post by BrokenCircles


There are multiple kinds of less than lethal ammo.

AMMO

Also they make standard .68 cal pepper balls, and rubber balls that work in paintball guns.

Less than lethal guns

reply to post by Kang69

Originally posted by Kang69

Holy hell how can you justify the death of a person like the police are in the right? If she had a gun and was shooting up the place then fine, but she was waving around a knife and scissors, and we don't know what kind of knife it was in the first place.

What you are doing is no different. You are obviously firm with your stance that the cops were in the wrong, but without actually being there or watching a video of it, the actions of the police during this incident can be neither justified nor condemned.

Originally posted by Kang69
Wow this is really disgusting that people are defending the cops.

Social engineering has come a long way. Instead of shooting her they could have easily just performed a take down and disarmed her, used a baton or pepper spray.

Holy hell how can you justify the death of a person like the police are in the right? If she had a gun and was shooting up the place then fine, but she was waving around a knife and scissors, and we don't know what kind of knife it was in the first place.

Isn't that a double standard? The cops are guilty because they're cops. We are OK with the lady because we don't know? Why don't we wait to see what the investigation brings?

reply to post by shaneslaughta

I agree, its mere seconds to change your mag from FMJ to rubber balls. Even handguns can fire rubber ball ammo.

There is no excuse they cant have both. They should be outfitted for all kinds of surprises.

While on paper that seems like a good idea, imagine how easy in a high stress situation it would be to forget the round in the chamber or grab the wrong magazine. There would also need to be training on the new rounds, which people would bitch about paying for.

I'm actually all for police having bean bag guns in their cars, but again, costs associated with training and outfitting...

Another thing to consider is that even if these officers did have a bean bag gun, it's still possible to miss and the woman could very well still have charged them. It's not going to necessarily be any more effective than a tazer. I actually think it would be less effective in many instances, the only real plus being able to fire multiple times and as The Redneck pointed out some people are far less vulnerable when getting a jolt.

I think many people fail to realize just how deadly a pair of scissors or a knife can be, and how fast things happen in a situation like this. Someone up thread actually said "So maybe a cop gets stabbed" as if it's no big deal. Knife wounds can be very deadly. I'm not going to say this is 100% fact because I'm too lazy to look it up but as I recall knife wounds are typically more deadly than gunshot wounds.

If someone is acting erratically with a knife in a crowded store the police need to make contact. They can't just ask everyone but the loon to exit the store in an orderly fashion and wait for the SWAT team/negotiators. They made contact, attempted to taze her, she allegedly came at them and at that point they used deadly force. Seems pretty straight forward.

reply to post by BrokenCircles


So, there's no other possible way of disarming someone with knife other then shooting them?

Does that seem logical to you?

Originally posted by Kang69
Wow this is really disgusting that people are defending the cops.

Social engineering has come a long way. Instead of shooting her they could have easily just performed a take down and disarmed her, used a baton or pepper spray.

I usually DON'T defend them, but you try easily performing a takedown on some really actively stabby woman with a 9" chef's knife. I'll put it this way, if I'M in the Costco and you find it necessary to come running at me slashing with a cleaver, I'm not going to try some wristlock throw, you'll probably be my first live target as a civilian.

...we don't know what kind of knife it was in the first place.

BIngo! Thus my statement that it would be nice to see a recording of it. Was she sort of dazedly staggering around with a knife in her hand, not really going after anyone, or was she foamy-mouthed stabby and going after people? It would make a big difference on whether this was pro or con to me.

It's absolutely amazing that you people cant even conceive that the cops can bring someone down with a knife and scissors without having to use a gun.

Trying a knife disarm in the dojo with a rubber knife is one thing, doing it in real life gets you people playing Amazing Grace for you. It's sort of like using a bayonet, if you're down to that, you screwed up. True, if you were just wandering around the store holding a knife and talking to the invisible Incans, I would likely try to taze your butt. But that whole wristgrab-twist-brachial stun thing? Nuh-uh. I'm not coming into lunging distance if I'm armed.

reply to post by intrepid


I see the cops as guilty because if they can't disarm someone with a knife and scissors without shooting them, they don't deserve the badge of "protect and serve" US.

This event happened not far from where I live... I wasn't there when it occurred but, I can tell you that MANY in the area are wondering why these officers chose to take the life of this woman as opposed to just taking her down.

Grown men, trained in dealing with such situations and armed with guns.........one woman with a knife.

People are talking.

What I find interesting is that people that have been typically blind to reality of police corruption and abuse are finally starting to open their eyes.

reply to post by shaneslaughta


Tell that to the bad guys who are armed with modified AK-47's, AR-15's, TEC 9's and Uzi's. Each capible of carrying 30 round LETHAL ammo.

"Getting the job done with one or two rounds..." is a fantasy. This may work in Hollywood, but not in the real world. I don't care who you are, in a situation where live ammo is being shot at you, you will have an adrinaline dump. This greatly influences accuracy and effectiveness. If an armed suspect is put down with five to ten rounds, that is pretty darn good. Killing a person is a last resort. The ultimate goal is to arrest and get intel, find out who was involved, the motivation, any other connections. You can't do that with a corpse.

Originally posted by Kang69
reply to post by intrepid

 

I see the cops as guilty because if they can't disarm someone with a knife and scissors without shooting them, they don't deserve the badge of "protect and serve" US.

Would you be willing to deal with someone that had sharp objects? They get a carotid or femoral artery and you're dead.

reply to post by Domo1


While everyone my be different with electrical correction......being shot in the chest or diaphragm with a rubber ball is bound to stop them. Cant do much when you cant breath.

While i understand the issues with carrying different ammo, its still a better option than live rounds.
Sure in the heat of the moment, i can understand making mistakes like forgetting that live round chanbered.

But i would feel a lot better knowing that they don't have to go strait for lethal option.

reply to post by Bedlam


"but you try easily performing a take down on some really actively stabby woman with a 9" chef's knife"

It could have been a chefs knife or a butter knife, but your right, we don't know.

But in any case, was she wielding a god damn samurai sword? Seriously? Your telling me you can't disarm someone using even pepper spray or any other means without shooting them?

And a rifle with a bayonet is huge difference because of the reach.