Mexico seeks U.S. immigration changes

Shall use thy Google. But use a boolean search, there are reports everynow and then of the MEXICAN MILITARY coming and killing US Border Patrol. Also, the Mexicans come and commit a crime then flee to Mexico, where they are safe. hell, don't even need to be a Mexican, if Charles Manson or Jeffery Lionel Dahmer fled to Mexico they would still be there safe and happy protected by Mexico.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Are you insane?

I would expect better from a MODERATOR in a Forum where DECORUM WILL BE ENFORCED.

We Mexicans are here, we've always been here, and we always will be here. You will have to deal with us in an evenhanded way if we are to remain friends. Equal treatment before the law, freedom to visit and to leave freely, no inhumane detention or torture during interrogations. That is the law. If you are going to use the epithet 'insane' I suggest you apply it to the member who advocated 'hunting' humans.

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
Mexican Department of State
United States
... there is often no effective law enforcement or police protection.

... Some segments of the local population resent the presence of foreigners and openly express their hostility.

... Standards of security ... has contributed to deaths of Mexican citizens ...

... Crime in the United States continues at high levels, and it is often violent ...

... Armed street crime is a serious problem in all of the major cities ...

... Kidnapping, including the kidnapping of non-Mexicans, continues at alarming rates....

... Criminal assaults occur on highways throughout Arizona ...

Just thought I'd correct a few spelling errors, Chuck.

Originally posted by dusty1031
America Percapita GDP-$37,800
Mexico Percapita GDP-$9000
w/ an unemployment as high as 28.3%

their TOTAL GDP isn't even 1/10 of ours!!!!

Put in context. The American percapita includes Donald Trump. The average redneck worker earns a little less than per capita. Many earn far less. Then, the American has to pay full retail for food, rent, and so on that costs at least FOUR TIMES as much as equivalent goods in Mexico. Multiplying your Mexican Percapita figure by four gives us an effective income of $36,000 American, a comparable amount. Throw in the Mexican's lack of expenses for health care and lower heating bills in the winter, and...

American unemployment figures are misleading, for they only count those receiving unemployment benefits at the time. When benefits run out the unemployed are classified as 'discouraged workers' and are dropped from the statistics. Unemployment in one Silicon Valley community hovers at around 24%, a figure that would drop if new markets could be opened up for American goods.

My Mexican relatives are wealthier than I am. It all depends on how you look at it.

Back to topic, I say let's all try to get along together and see what happens. We are friends, we are neighbors, and we are co-workers and relatives. Let's settle our differences and get on with the real work of building great nations.

Before we continue the debate I would like to classify what you just said as out of context, EVERY NATION (mexico included) HAS THEIR Donald Trumps and others that scew statistics, and IF you are correct in your 1/4 allogation, there probibly are a few people that are making 1/4 of what Donald Trump makes too, so the statistics hold true, by the fact that the same factors scew the statistics the same way. DUH! Learn Statistics and the application of what averages actualy are! (know that every country on a large enough sample scale will have the same highs and the same lows)

OH, and that also means some mexicans make FAR below 9,000 a year. IF we annex mexico, their 1/4 cost advantage would go away because an open border goes both ways, and the MExico economy with it's inferior, but adequate and cheaper products would be over run by US intrests, and it would dissapear, and the mexican people would still be making 9000 a year, w/o their low prices.

BTW I have seen what these 'equal' but 1/4 price things are, ever been to porto neuavo (sp?), yeah, that is about 1.5 hrs south of the border, I go there for lobster, and the houses there are despicable, and the people sell their goods from carts. there may seem nothing wrong with that except their homes and carts ARE MADE OUT OF AMERICAN USED GARAUGE DOORS. Not to be an ugly american or anything, but these people would not be able to survive in the modern US economy. Do you think they could compete with a nice new clean super wal-mart?!?!?!

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Ok now, I guess, back to topic, lol again, we keep doing this...lol

cool, yeah we are neighbors, and that is the way it should be, I wouldn't invite my neighbor to take the advantages that my wife gives, we do have them over, they can come visit, and I know lots of mexicans (growing up in southern Cali.) and none of them were ever detained. I feel the US does not detain or arrest people that aren't suspicious in one form or another and though the US does not believe in torture, whether it does it or not I donno, BUT what rights would my neighbor have if he forcively entered my house and tried to take advantage of my wife.

(all the house wife thing is just a simily, I don't live in a house or have a wife, just a girlfriend :-D )

[edit on 12/11/2004 by dusty1031]

you are obviously bent on having a preferential status for Mexicans in the US, as compared to other immigrants. So effectively you insist on "tearing down the Wall" between the US and Mexico, while at the same time erecting the wall surrounding the North America. Now that's grand.

Your argument about some special rights based on who lived here first is quite hollow. The human history is one of massive migration and wars. What if ancient Egyptians settled South America a few thousand years ago? Should Egypt claim special rights on that continent.

It is darn ridiculous.

In closing statement, there might be an amnesty or two, but I hope that by and large the US will be able to throttle in onslaught of illegal immigrants.

Over and out.

Oh, Aelita. The argument is far from over. In fact, now the game is afoot for real: President Putin Wants to Put Together a New Superpower Coalition. You might want to be brushing up on your Russian and Portuguese- unless we Mexicans can manage to save you from missing the boat, the American Union boat that is. An American Union run by the peoples of the Americas would enhance American power, not challenge it. Anytime you want Spanish lessons, just let me know. I have found that English only makes sense when you study its Latin roots.

Originally posted by Chakotay
President Putin Wants to Put Together a New Superpower Coalition.

Oh boy. Putin presides over a country that's so corrupt they can't do jack if they wanted to. Superpower my arse.

You might want to be brushing up on your Russian

I am a native speaker of that language, thank you.

unless we Mexicans can manage to save you

Thanks but No, thanks.

Anytime you want Spanish lessons, just let me know

I might take you up on this offer, thanks.

Back to topic: equal treatment for Mexicans under the Law. Tear down that wall, Mr. Bush.

LOL I love that, nothing to say? hmm well OK, I guess we can chauk that one up to another that you canno fight.

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ok Back to topic, I agree

'Should Pres. Bush Tear down the Mexican American Border wall?/

I say no b/c it would creat an over suply of low end workers, hence driving up compotition and driving wages down, OR causing the employers to reduce the number of employees, either way it is bad for the bottom end

The bottom end will then claim social services, and will not be contributing to them b/c they are now unemployed or under waged.

Opening the border will make it easier to bring in illeagal drugs and weapons

Opening the border will increase racial descrimination (live somewhere where there are alot of any particular 'minority' and it will lead to steriotypes (such as 'dirty ******* mexican's, live'n in their lil' trash houses')[I do not hold this view, but have heard it several times] and hate, the more there are, the worse it will be)

Tearing down the wall would increase government (on a gov already strained enough) spending on the, what would be, growing US military, and Social services.

Opening the border would cause less money tobe spent in America b/c it would be sent accross the border, hence less GNP for us.
------------IF the whole family moved here, so there was nothing being sent back then the Mexican Gov (who's #2 input to GNP is US money being sent in) would crash, losing lots of income, esp in Taxes.

Opening the borders would be tragic for mexico and the US, The best plan of action would be a system that allowed them in for certain times of the year, to work in certain areas, and certain low end jobs. They could only collect limited types of services, and would have to go home when their time was over. This system would control labor suply and demand, and would help the US ensure good pay to the workers.

MR. Bush, RAISE THE WALL, CHANGE THE SYSTEM

Originally posted by Aelita
Oh boy. Putin presides over a country that's so corrupt they can't do jack if they wanted to. Superpower my arse.

If you're trying to counterpoint this to the US I think you could have found a better analogy. Let us not mention the millitary/industrial complex.
I have a hammer I will sell for $10,000.

Several posters have voiced the opinion that we cannot pursue a Union of the Americas because the people south of the border enjoy less prosperity than their neighbors in the North. While one might argue that people generally acheive the level of prosperity they want on both sides, let's examine this idea from an economic standpoint. Put on your selfish hats for a minute, Northerners. If a rich man moves in next door to me, and I am a multilevel marketing guy, I'm not too enthused when I see the movers unload his stuff. He has everything. He doesn't need to buy any of my Fuller Brushes or Amway cleansers. He's got it made, and I have nothing he wants. No sale.

A person who does not enjoy the American standard of living yet is a person I can sell my stuff to. He needs what I have. He wants to buy, and if I don't have to crawl over a barbed wire fence and fill out a book full of paperwork I will be happy to sell it to him. My standard of living goes up, his goes up, taxes get paid and the economy booms.

A new Walmart was recently built at Teotihuacan, near the Pyramids. Locals pushed through the permits to encourage 'progress', to get 'jobs', and the street vendors have more traffic flow to sell to also. And yes, profits and taxes benefit you guessed it, Arkansas.

Mexicans are consumers of American goods. They are friends and relatives to American people. They are smart, well educated, loyal workers. They share many American values. By opening the Golden Door to them, we enrich ourselves. Mexico is a win-win situation for America economically, if we just start to think like, erm, salesmen.

Make friends with the neighbors. Tear down the wall.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Mexican Department of State
United States
... there is often very effective law enforcement and police protection and if you are a suspect, come on home and we will protect you from the Gringo.

... Some segments of the local population resent the presence of foreigners and openly express their hostility, which is well deserved as we continually steal from them whenever we get a chance anyway.

... Standards of security ... has contributed to deaths of Mexican citizens ... Muchas Gracias Dios!

... Crime in the United States continues at high levels, and it is often violent ... because we want all our Mexican citizens to know that they can do whatever they want to the Gringos.

... Armed street crime is a serious problem in all of the major cities ... and we, the Mexican Government are proud of supporting that long and happy tradition of our society.

... Kidnapping, including the kidnapping of non-Mexicans, continues at alarming rates.... Presidente' Fox wants to know who has been cutting into the profit margin by kidnapping Mexicans!!!!

... Criminal assaults occur on highways throughout Arizona ... Please remember to be nice when you 'borrow' the gringos car and money and wife and daughters and little boys for your pleasure!

Just thought I'd make it reflect official Mexican Doctrine Chakotay!

Just a friendly note Chak ... you obviously couldn't respond with any kind of real argument so you had to ridicule the official information of the U.S. State Department. I am now wondering if You are paying royalty fees to Paramount for the use of their copyrighted material in your Handle and your Icon. Are you? Are you? huh? huh?

Chakotay, You talk like the peopel that would be moving to the US could afford it.

let's take your example, the US is the rich Neighbor, and Mexico is the lesser neighbor. The wall falls they see us, what can they sell us? as you yourself said, nothing.

A person who does not enjoy the American standard of living yet is a person I can sell my stuff to. He needs what I have. He wants to buy,

But first he needs to be able to afford it, and that is where the problem comes in, commingto the US making $9000 US DOLLARS, ing the US ECONOMY they couldn't afford to buy the US way of life.

IT would take a looonnnng time before we had enough immigrants to buy enough American stuff to even break even with what the US will spend on Social Services for these people. LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG Time, like probibly, never.

Dusty, these workers produce far more in taxes, albeit not direct taxes, than they consume in social services. Local economies in the SW would collapse without the economic boost provided by immigrant labor. Guards cost taxes; workers pay taxes. Workers are productive; guards are not.

As for you Chuck Stevenson, you have cojones. But no cerebros.

My Avatar is copyright by me. It is a pyramid of all races where even you are welcome. My screen name is Cherokee. Both Jeep and Paramount owe us royalties.

It's Friday, here's the Tequila amigos, bless you all and TEAR DOWN THE WALL.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Canada, the word, as I learned it, is Huron in origin, not "Mexican", nor has it to do with anything remotely connected with the indians of meso-america or anything "hispanic." read your history.

Originally posted by WalSyhprum
Canada, the word, as I learned it, is Huron in origin, not "Mexican", nor has it to do with anything remotely connected with the indians of meso-america or anything "hispanic." read your history.

Many people trace the word to 'Kanata' from the Huron 'village'. Ca�ada is also Spanish for 'gorge', a valley filled with running water. It is related to things meso-american; ask any Huron, we are the people of the corn. We have ancient undeniable mesoamerican roots. Our Cherokee language has 'kanati' as 'friend'.

Study your history in detail. In 1497 an Italian named John Cabot sailed west from Bristol, England, intent on finding a new trade route to the Orient for his patron, King Henry VII of England. Find out who his ship pilot was: hint, he was not Italian or English. Then, read his logs. The devil is in the details.

Which gives the Huron aboriginal title, correct?

What I am saying is the Americas have common enemies, and common interests. We are all native people here now, everyone who was born here. All this talk of division is counterproductive. We need to unite in the common defense, work together to build a brighter future for all.

TEAR DOWN THE WALL

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Chakotay]

I SAY HELL YES TO AN AMERICAN UNION! I mean the idea of this is just INCREDIBLE! HELL, I bet we could even get a country like Japan to join, but lets not go there, lol. Now, im not saying lets dive head first in, no no no... just like the EU does it, you impose a set of laws, and if you reach those laws you will be admitted in under vote. The only countries allowed in are the US and Canada at the moment. Thus forcing Mexico's hand at cleaning up their country. This would take about 5 years, then we would allow Mexico in. And slowly we see the forming of an Unstoppable Power that makes the entire world take note. And since i really dont think Japan is happy with the rest of Asia, and especially China, and is one of our biggest competitors and partners, they may wanna say YES to the AU! Of course in the end the EU the AU and Probably the other AU's would eventually form a PU, Planetary Union.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Dusty, these workers produce far more in taxes, albeit not direct taxes, than they consume in social services. Local economies in the SW would collapse without the economic boost provided by immigrant labor. Guards cost taxes; workers pay taxes. Workers are productive; guards are not.

Chakotay, I think the price to pay a few hundred gaurds a day, which then in return pay anywhere from 15-50% of that back in taxes is much cheaper than paying the millions of new Social leaches that would occure from open borders, put your numbers in perspective, you have had a problem with that alot, perspective, numbers and Statistics.

Don't just blow this off, if you have a real reason that the US would gain money by adding millions to social Programs, and unemploying hundreds of thousands more, NONE OF WHICH would make a large enough contribution to tax funds to over-come the deficite their 'type' would create, please tell me.

I just don't see how draining hundreds of millions, if not billions, a year in new Social leachers, which would contribute little to tax funds, would outweigh the cost of employing gaurds.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Back to topic: equal treatment for Mexicans under the Law. Tear down that wall, Mr. Bush.

Equal treatment for all U.S. citizens under the law in the U.S. Mexicans are residents of another country -- Mexico. They shouldn't even be part of the equation in the U.S.

Citizens of another country in the U.S. without permission should be sent back to their country of origin immediately. And, if you're in the U.S. (especially as a U.S. citizen) endorsing the dissolution of the Union, that should be considered sedition under the law.

Build a wall, secure our borders, please, President Bush...