I hate to even ask, but are you part of that group that is trying to claim California back? I think it's called MECHA or something similar.

If you are, could you tell me a bit about your plan? Are you guys planning a full scale revolution?

If you aren't, since you have obviously studied this subject for a long period of time have you stumbled across that group in your research path and can you tell me the correct name of it so that I can google them?

Thanks!

Jemison

This thenme has been beaten to death but after reading a much better discusion and very good data I think Ill add some things to it:

I fully support theta the US should enforce their inmigration laws, whatever they are, for they are a sovereign nation.
Mexico for example put you in Jail for 4 years minimum in the event of you giving work or shelter to illegals.
More people have died in crossing the border in the last 4 years than the American Soldiers in Iraq.
There are no exact data but its believed that more than half the illegals are exploited in some way in the US.
The torrent of illegals crossing the border most of them are poor or coming from rural areas, have skyrocketed from the early 70, because in the 60´s the rural areas and the peasants had a way of life and money product of crops they grew. The US with its multzillion dollar incentives and subsides to the american Farmer, controled the market the price of most grains so they drove this guys aout of the nmarket and lost their job -hence they had no other choice than to emmigrate to the MExican Cities (Mexico city grew form 3.3 million in 1970 to over 23 today) and the other went to the USA lured by the american dream. Today Mexico imposts most of its grains from the USA !!!....
The original plan Fox devised was to use the data Mexico has of its citizens (the national electoral card) to allow NON criminal and NO previous criminal record to work temporarily in the US witha fixed wage and paying taxes, also with permision to visit back relatives in national holidays and with the certainty that they will be there to work and under some RULES, unfortunatelly 9/11 put that to an end, but the problem contunies.
In my case I always have had a US visa, I even had the LIFELONG VISA, but the US gov. took them out an dreplaced them with 10 year visas, the proccess is too long, you need to prove your income and belive me I dont look like a poor people, I speak English with a british accent and I have a good job BUT:

when I enter the US by LAX or ORD, the ask to see my airline ticket back with its date!
They make a lot of questions
I have even been searched twice !
By god Sakes If I am spending 2500 USD$ in first class tickets with my wife surelly I am not trying to enter Illegally, Id better use my car park it in tijuana and cross like 4000 are doing each day...!!!

As I have said before the problem is too complex to solve it with one stroke, but I think both government shold sit and reach some compromise for the sake of BOTH countries, because in the long run we will be still here and you will too..WE ARE NEIGHBORS.

Chakotay

your argument is as flawed as saying that italy used to be rome and hence Italy should own everything. The naturral progression of time more or less states that one nation or empire will conquor or ally with others, but upon conquor, their lives and lands are taken from them and usualy forced into slavery, if anything the indians and Mexicans should be happy they even lived. In the modern social scheme of compassion, yep we were in the wrong, and the Indians and Mexican were wronged, BUT In historical context, the natural progression of tribes, you were over run, and to turn now and say 'this is my land' LOL

you honestly think that most anyone will just give there land to you. In your 'revolution' you have the mexicans and indians, but how many of those have given in and said 'it's hopeless, I guess I am an american now' or are enjoying their Casinos and what not, I hear those bring in quite a few $$$, OH and what is the revolutionists ratio to non revolutionists? BTW you are also planning a revolution it a state with more or less the most military power out there, as well as one of the largest, so, how do you plan to cause a big enough insurgence to overpower all this? impossible.

I am sorry to be so harsh and what most would call 'BARBARIC' but his tribes of Aztecs, Incas and Myans All did the same, they conquored and enslaved, and Mexico is not theres, and America is not the Indians, If we go far enough back it could be anyones. IF ANYTHING America was compassionate in not enslaving most of you (though they did some), I mean YOU were conquored by a forein nation, accept it, accept the terms, the same ones tyou handed out to the nations you conquored, and move on.

EDIT:
I like this last comment, and he is right, this forum is not about reclaiming land or rights or wrongs, but of immigration between the US and Mexico. The Mexican workers want in, To protect ourselves we need to make them pay taxes and limit the aid they can recieve, and to protect them, we need to limit the numbers so they don't compete and hurt their status.
[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

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[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Originally posted by dusty1031
I mean YOU were conquored by a forein nation, accept it, accept the terms, the same ones tyou handed out to the nations you conquored, and move on.

Sorry Dusty, but we Natives are your 'Jews'. We will never accept your requisition of our lands, ever, any more than the Jews accepted the requisition of their lands for 2000 years, nor will we move on. There is a difference, though. We do not seek revolution; force of arms is not Cherokee. We will reason with you, we will live in peace and marry your people until that day that we are again the majority. Hispanics form 52% of the population in California now, but many are disenfranchised and cannot vote. Jem, the Aztlan movement you refer to is not affiliated with the Cherokee Nation, I have heard of it but as I say we Cherokees tend to be more conservative and to most of you, most of us look at first glance like Rednecks. We're Okies that like Tamales, altho' we call tamales 'broadswords' because we used to cook 'em on DeSoto's broken sword blades when we kicked the first Spanish expedition out. Complicated people? Heck yeah, neighbor. There's more of us than the gov't counts, due to tribal resistance to blood counts. Most 'breeds parents won't even tell them they are Indian, because they are afraid of ongoing prejudice and discrimination.

By the way, how'd we kick DeSoto out without force of arms? Our Chieftainess led him into the desert in search of gold. Poor sod didn't know how to find water or his way back & etc. and died with most of his men. She escaped. Very unfortunate incident. And very Indian. Bet you are too, if you check your geneology. We like to marry Scots and Irish in particular.

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Chakotay]

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Chakotay]

si, well that is thepoint, if someone won't stand up to be counted, why would the take part in a revolution?

Oh, and I wasn't referring you to any redneck, I have also lived in GA for several years, not that all the people that live there are rednecks, but many are.

hmmm, as for being geneticly indian, no, I am not, I have traced my genetic backround into the 1400's in EUROPE, I am 1/8th GERMAN, I may have some hidden Indian in me, I wouldn't be surprised, BUT I have watched enough afterschool specials (LOL) in my day to know that what I am is not based in my Genes, any adopted child will tell you that.

AS for being our Jews...hmmmmm...wouldn't that make any nation that was over run what you call the 'Jews'? in that case the Aztecs were the Capital of Nazis, People like you and the people you are refurring to are people living in the past, looking for some compassion in the modern era because for once someone did uto you as you did unto them, No matter how you kill someone, they are dead, whether through trickery or weapons, you killed those people.

Your Indians weren't savages or redneck, just a family of people who were affraid to get their hands dirty so they tricked there invaders into dieing. THE CHEROKEE KILLED THEM, THEY KNEW THE SPANS. WOULDN'T SURVIVE, AND THEY KILLED THEM.

lol, yes, neighbor, there are more of you than counted, but if they won't even be counted, why would they fight for you? hmmm another thing, as was said in the last post, but wasn't addressed, If you take it far enough back, anyone could claim this land, indian, mexican, animals, (going really far back) we could say in the cradle of time the first person that stepped on alaska, then went home b/c it was too cold, could claim the americas, my point is that you do not own this land, and neither does anyone else, any more than any other person, so to kick someone off in a manner that involves you claiming you were there first is flaud and dishonorly

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Dusty, UCSC? Used to work there. Back then it was a hippy-dippy leftist hangout. Why the Lenin avatar, my friend? He was one of the original Ethnic Cleansers. When I was at UC, the students were compassionate, antiwar, greenpeace, and liked visiting Guatemala. A Leninist might like to see a divided American continent, as opposed to a Pan-American Union.

lol, you fool, Lennin united the Soviet States (the creation of the USSR), he was a UNITER!!

Oh, and UCSC is still alot like that, but you cannot generalize a person based off of where they live. Oh, and try not to make generalizations trying to undermind my arguments based off of what you see.

Anyways, Lennin was...not a ethnic clenser, but rather a revolutionary

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
of patriots & tyrants"--Thomas Jefferson

that was more or less Stalin that ethnicly clensed(which is a common misconception), Lennin united the powers against a monarch kingdomeship to spawn a confederation of Communist states that worked perfectly under him. So, leave Lennin and his UNITING, EQUAL RIGHTS, EQUAL LIBERTIES ideals out of this.

oh, and we still don't like war, and love Guatamala (and the Yummy food there), there is no hate my friend, no plans of ethnic hatred my neighbor, but to unite you need similar playing fields, otherwise the rich pay for the poor, and that causes discrimination and hatred, which is why nearly all the people that left russia or poland or any soviet state (that I have talked to) love it here rather than there.

To Fully Unite the US and Mexico, would be a wonderful thing, IF people didn't have feelings of greed and selfishness, but we do as a people, my brother, and because of that it cannot happen right now.

hmmm, back to the whole 'this is our land' This land is Everyone's my brother, and everyone is born with equal opportunity, you start out in this world with just about as much as I do. so to claim you deservve anything any more than I do, based off of heritage, is simply sad.

Mexican's should have the ability to come to america to work, but in that they must abide by the same rules as everyone else, pay taxes, things like that, but as of now they don't really, so it needs to be reformed but an open boarder just would flood the labor market and cause the immigrant workers to be exploited even more. as well as flood our already floundering federal economy.

BTW killing is killing, dust to dust, an eye for an eye, you killed your invaders, the next invaders broke you *shakes head* Yep by the modern compassionate scale, you were wronged, but so also was nearly every other civilization ever, at one point or another, so why whine about it?

Also, I don't like war, I like peace and unity, and all the things you speak of would make peace for some and travisty for others, and all created equal, the people that have made their lives rich deserve to be protected as well.

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Well just to go against the racist, bigoted tide in this thread I might remind you Americans that you are all visitors in Mexico and should be counting your blessings that the Mexicans do not demand return of all the land stolen from them by your ancestors. Mexicans are the Original Americans, and Americans are lucky that Mexicans love them and are willing to do the work no one else wants. Go see the movie A Day Without Mexicans sometime. The Mexicans are the most trustworthy, dependable workers in every basic industry, contrary to the stereotypes perpetrated by racist bigots. Americans are welcome in Mexico; we should extend the same courtesy to come and go to them. Next time you eat, thank the workers who brought that food to your table. Open your hearts and minds and stop living in a world of hate. You will live longer and be happier for it.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Chakotay]

rofl the mexican government invited the american farmers to those sw lands but then broke the backbone of their economy with high taxes and barring slavery when it was obvious @ that time that the garmers there wanted slavery.. the mexicans brought the conquering of the sw upon themselves

I had forgotten about that post, thanks for bringing it back to topic.

If the Mexican Gov. demanded the SW back, I think the world would laugh, they can demand all they want, they won't get it, I am sure

As well, the Mexican Gov loves us b/c their 2nd highest input to their GDP is US currency flowing into it from outside (tourists, and money sent back) so...yeah, we make up alot of there GDP

The first opponents of Lenin's regime to take up arms were the Cossacks in the south of Russia...to fight the Central Powers...'Trotsky strangely decided to halt the rail progress of the Czech army and instead ordered the Czechs to "join the Red Army to be pressed into 'labor battalions''...resisted with force... A Russo-Polish treaty...As in most wars, the behavior and intentions of the various factions in the Russian Civil War ranged from bad to worse

Wow, you mean a leader would defend his new regieme...that is amazing...

In contrast, the Communists' inhumanity was publicly ordered by the highest levels of Lenin's government

Do they mean like scalping or what?...

Well, After reading this artical I see this...

so this army challenges the new gov, and is destroyed, the POWs are then used to work (not unnusual, leagal under the geniva convention) but they don wanna, so they revolt, later, lennin's army kill 70% of them...probibly in battle....70% of an army that has tried to violently overthrow him TWICE, I believe most countries would do this, it's not like these were unarmed people, they were WELL ARMED ARMIES trying to VIOLENTLY OVERTHROW the Gov.

hmmmmm, that seems like....he defended his country....now what is this ethnic genocide you are talking about?

ethnic: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background

genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

well, he destroyed a threatening army...is this like the cherokee and the spaniards in the desert which they purposly killed them? hmm the spanish are a race, and a culture, and a nation and hold religion and language. So Cherokee, your race is one of Anti Spanish Nazis, by the official deffinition of Ethnic Genocide. DON'T LECTURE Me on how a man defending his government is ANYTHING like a man killing explorers.

and I am not a son of yours, you may address me as neighbor, brother, or Dusty, I am not your inferior

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

What I mean to convey is that Lennin Did just as any person leading a gov would. I see lennin as a hero that United the Soviet States, and though it was bloody, the only clensing was that of those actively violent against the gov. also known as those KIA

This is not what this thread is about, so back to topic (as I try AGAIN) THE TOPIC IS MEXICAN IMIGRATION not similarities of the Red Revolution and the Cherokee Nation.

[edit on 7/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Hispanics form 52% of the population in California now, but many are disenfranchised and cannot vote.

Those that are 'disenfranchised' are so because they aren't U.S. citizens, they're Mexican citizens. Only U.S. citizens can vote in the U.S.

Also, being a Hispanic and being an Indian (Native American) are two totally different things. Hispanics are decendants of intermarriages between Europeans (usually from Spain & Portugal) with native Indians. Indians are the decendents of those various tribes directly. Very few Mexicans are Indian; most are Hispanic.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud

Originally posted by Chakotay
Hispanics form 52% of the population in California now, but many are disenfranchised and cannot vote.

Those that are 'disenfranchised' are so because they aren't U.S. citizens, they're Mexican citizens. Only U.S. citizens can vote in the U.S.

Also, being a Hispanic and being an Indian (Native American) are two totally different things. Hispanics are decendants of intermarriages between Europeans (usually from Spain & Portugal) with native Indians. Indians are the decendents of those various tribes directly. Very few Mexicans are Indian; most are Hispanic.

Thundercloud, I like your Nickname. Now, disenfranchisement of Hispanics is not so simple. The United States uses various political strategies to disenfranchise Hispanics, such as selective enforcement of cultural laws targeted at those of Hispanic culture. For example: I drink a beer on my front lawn in Mexico. No problem. I come up to the States and do that, I go to jail for drunk in public. Why? The anti-hispanics (conspiracy theory here) watch our neighborhoods and notice we drink beer on the front lawn and Anglos mostly don't. Bingo. Law. Lots of people felonied out of voting for a NON-CRIME.

Finally, I'm going to repeat an old Native story about part-Indians. On both sides of the border we've been brainwashed to think Indian is different from Hispanic is different from Redneck is different from... etc.

I was sitting with a Native Elder one day when I mentioned a Chief of the past had been 'part Indian'. The Elder asked me, 'Which part? His finger, or his ear maybe. Hand me that glass of water, son. And that salt shaker. Here, I'll put just a little salt in that water. Ok, now, you drink it.'

I didn't drink that water, and Hispanics and Rednecks aren't 'part Indian'. A little dab 'l do ya, and we share common blood, common land, and a common heritage. It is about time we start acting like brothers.

And a final word to Dusty. The Cherokees are not Spanish haters, or anything haters except we do hate ignorance in ourselves and try to deny it place. The Queen of Spain sitting today is descended from Cherokee People, she is a wonderful woman and benefactress of the Cherokee Nation. And calling you son is not disrespect, it is a fond affectation of an old man raised below the Mason-Dixon line.

Chakotay's arguments are interesting but largely irrelevant.

1) The keyword is illegal immigrants. Why on Earth should illegal trafficking be encouraged?

2) "We all are children of corn", "Cancun is beautiful", "Mexico all the way to Canada" may sound poetic but irrelevant. The US is a sovereign land and should protect its institute of citizenship. I think it's bizzare that it's so hard for a lawful person to immigrate here legally (believe me I know firsthand) while the Mexicans come in droves and are upset that they don't automaticaly become naturalized and get a passport and a free gift at the Border Crossing Visitor Center. Then they get to the important business of having multiple babies.

Who the hell is paying taxes for the services?

Originally posted by Aelita
Chakotay's arguments are interesting but largely irrelevant.

1) The keyword is illegal immigrants. Why on Earth should illegal trafficking be encouraged?

2) "We all are children of corn", "Cancun is beautiful", "Mexico all the way to Canada" may sound poetic but irrelevant. The US is a sovereign land and should protect its institute of citizenship. I think it's bizzare that it's so hard for a lawful person to immigrate here legally (believe me I know firsthand) while the Mexicans come in droves and are upset that they don't automaticaly become naturalized and get a passport and a free gift at the Border Crossing Visitor Center. Then they get to the important business of having multiple babies.

Who the hell is paying taxes for the services?

Aelita, let me clarify my positions:

A. The United States took sovereign Mexican lands by force of arms and fraudulant treaty-making. That makes US title and authority null and void under International Law (remember Kuwait?). This is a fact, not irrelevant.

B. The US has biased border policies. Mexicans should enjoy the same immigration policies directed towards largely Anglo Canadians- at least.

C. The Mexican Government is NOT asking for its lands back. The US should be THANKFULL for that, and for the largely Catholic Mexican people's support for the war on islamist terror and illegal drugs. The Mexican Government is asking for humane, fair, equal treatment for its citizens in matters of immigration. The Mexican Government COULD press its case for reparations or restoration of lands in the United Nations courts, but it is showing admirable restraint in relations with Washington. Washington should reciprocate with a policy of equal treatment of Mexicans. Mexicans in America should be extended the same welcome Americans in Mexico are. That is called equal protection before the law and justice for all. We should treat our blood relatives like the family members they are.

D. The taxes generated for the US, States, counties and cities by Mexican labor are enourmous. I hold among other degrees a BSc. in Business Admin., and did my research projects on this subject. Mexican laborers are the backbone of the agricultural and service industries in the Southwest and even up into Chicago, generating trillions of dollars of GDP for American business and consumers that is taxed all the way. If you want to directly tax foreign nationals, make registration for them a friendly, welcoming inclusive program like the World War Two BRACERO Program that welcomed Mexicans to replace Americans lost to the war in industry.

I will tell you about illegal. I wore a badge in my younger days. Admitting that is a great way to lose friends, eh? I stopped a racist partner from killing a Mexican worker. A federal jury let my partner go. These are serious issues, people are dying from prejudice, and we need to stand up for peace. I put my life on the line; both men are still alive.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Aelita, let me clarify my positions:

Please do!

A. The United States took sovereign Mexican lands by force of arms and fraudulant treaty-making. That makes US title and authority null and void under International Law (remember Kuwait?). This is a fact, not irrelevant.

They took it by force allright. You guys shoulda fought better. Now, if you declare that NM, AZ etc are Mexico, this belongs in a different thread altogether IMHO. We are talking immigration here, not territorial claims (which you clearly imply) --"authority null" end quote

B. The US has biased border policies. Mexicans should enjoy the same immigration policies directed towards largely Anglo Canadians- at least.

No they shouldn't. The economic pressure to immigrate into the US, as you know, is about 1,000,000 times bigger in Mexico than it is in Canada. That's a well based bias. Besides, it's not easy for a Canadian to come and work here (discussed in a separate thread).

C. The Mexican Government is NOT asking for its lands back. The US should be THANKFULL for that

I like the stuff you are smoking, amigo
Why the US should be thankful?

What if the mighty Mexico did demand thelands back? I shudder.

and for the largely Catholic Mexican people's support for the war on islamist terror and illegal drugs.

Jesus H Christ, you are trying to cozy up to you El Norte neighbor by claiming same religious roots? This is lame.

The Mexican Government is asking for humane, fair, equal treatment for its citizens in matters of immigration.

They receive plenty of that. There are whole huge areas in New York City populated by Mexicanos. There is nothing unequal about asking illegals to leave. And as legals to stay. It's all fair, dude.

The Mexican Government COULD press its case for reparations or restoration of lands in the United Nations courts, but it is showing admirable restraint in relations with Washington.

hahahahaha Mexico can't do jack in courts in that matter

Washington should reciprocate with a policy of equal treatment of Mexicans.

They are already more than equal -- they cross the border in numbers unimaginable by any other nation in the world.

I put my life on the line; both men are still alive.

I seriously admire your courage. You did well and are a very positive person.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Aelita
What if the mighty Mexico did demand thelands back? I shudder.

UN sanctions. Economic depression. The EU would gain economic advantage over an embargoed US. Spain has an interest in its old Empire.

Maltreatment of Mexicans by the US hurts the current US economy through reduction of revenues and taxation, lessening of international goodwill and markets, and possible future actions in international tribunals. Make no mistake, the whole world is watching. And the whole world is not without power.

America was great during the Cold War because it played 'good guy' to the USSR's 'bad guy' in front of the world's audience; John Foster Dulles knew this would be a winning strategy. Kennedy as President knew that Racism would not be in America's interest worldwide, and he put a stop to it. Now that the Cold War is over, and the Antiterror War has begun, America is showing its true face. That face is remarkably like the face of the South before Kennedy. If we are going to win the war on terror we must have the support of all the peoples of the world, and that means equal treatment for our Mexican relatives.

And, as I've said before Aelita, I smoke tobacco.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Maltreatment of Mexicans by the US hurts the current US economy through reduction of revenues and taxation

How is maltreatment of Mexicans in the US worse than maltreatment of Gambians, Pushtu or Russians?

If you suggest blanket green card for Mexicanos because of their geographical proximity, you should have stated so in the first post, case closed.

I would disagree with that, but that's another matter.




[edit on 9-11-2004 by Aelita]