Pope Francis: Even Atheists are Redeemed

reply to post by Akragon


You lack an understanding of the Trinity. Christ is equal with God essentially. For the accomplishment of His plan, Christ took on humanity, foresaking His equality with God temporarily, to exhibit submission and enter death for the redemption of the elect. He is now at the right hand of God.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Doesn't the Trinity go something like:

The Son is not the Father is not the Holy Spirit is not the Son but all are god?

So how can the Son be one with the Father (John 10:30) if the Trinity says that the Father is not the Son and vice versa? You're making this too easy.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You desperately want there to be a contradiction where there isn't one. You take Scripture out of context, point to it, and go, "AH HA. FAITH AND WORKS, FAITH AND WORKS." The Scripture makes it clear: If works have not manifested themselves in your life, then your faith may very well be a false faith. Works arise out of faith, not the other way around, and nor are they equal to one another in bringing about salvation.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon

 

You lack an understanding of the Trinity. Christ is equal with God essentially. For the accomplishment of His plan, Christ took on humanity, foresaking His equality with God temporarily, to exhibit submission and enter death for the redemption of the elect. He is now at the right hand of God.

No... I don't lack understanding on anything within the pages of the bible... Its actually a hobby of mine... the trinity isn't biblical... period

the trinity is a fabrication put in place 300 some odd years after the fact...

Jesus did not say God is three.... or three in one... In fact no where in the bible is the word trinity used... and there is a reason for that...

You prefer the words of man rather then the words of Jesus.... that is your issue...

Paul is a liar, as referenced within that quote...

Deny it if you will.... but it doesn't change it

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Because what you're discussing there is a paradox, not a contradiction or an error. The Triune God is three in essence, one in person.

reply to post by Akragon


By stating "Paul is a liar" and "the concept of the Trinity isn't in the Bible", you are nullifying arguments made, and any future arguments. I can't argue with somebody who isn't logical.

EDIT: Also, you have yet to show me error in the Bible. Feel free to try again.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


So why did Paul say people are justified from faith apart from works? Faith apart from works is "empty faith" as you put it. So do you think empty faith is worthless or justified? Which is it?

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon

 

By stating "Paul is a liar" and "the concept of the Trinity isn't in the Bible", you are nullifying arguments made, and any future arguments. I can't argue with somebody who isn't logical.

EDIT: Also, you have yet to show me error in the Bible. Feel free to try again.

edit on 24-5-2013 by FollowTheWhiteRabbit because: (no reason given)

I don't blame you... Many if not most Christians run from me... even in real life

IF you're happy being blind to obvious contradictions... feel free

You see my friend... You can't argue with people that are logical because you lack logic... and you contradict your own words.... anyone can clearly see that by looking over the past 2 pages...

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


So you believe in paradoxes? Didn't you just imply paradoxes were bad by saying there are none in the bible?

Round and round we go.

This begs the question: did the pope exorcise a demon from that dude or did he pass one along......
But seriously, it's so tough to weigh in on issues like these. What about someone born and who dies in the forest or jungle who never hears about this story? Were they just incarnated to live that existence as bad punishment/karma from a past life? What if they enjoyed that life? This logical mind gets very restless with talks like these, being raised Catholic. What would Jesus do? I think he might agree with the pope. There's no way he reached every single person in existence during His life, and yet he would advocate for them, I'm sure.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon

 

You lack an understanding of the Trinity. Christ is equal with God essentially. For the accomplishment of His plan, Christ took on humanity, foresaking His equality with God temporarily, to exhibit submission and enter death for the redemption of the elect. He is now at the right hand of God.

Locus-wise, Christ was never anywhere else but the right hand/left hand, ottoman at the fore...

(this is all very off-topic, but, when in Rome)...

The distinction is at once moot and confusing to ponder...Christ, as God in aspect...or, God, as Christ in aspect...

Not only are they equal, but distinct only in facial recognition as agent of the corporation, acting as the corporation, with the full trust of the CEO...very high position...

'The plan', consisted in uplift...had nought to do with wiping of 'sins' (interesting word given the mythology built around the christian behemoth - hard to unravel, if stuck inside its spaghetti junctions)...biggest U-turn possible achieved on that one - sent the reason for appearance into a completely different direction...

Elect...(exclusionist) fits with the newly-formed bowl of aforementioned spaghetti (gotta have those ducks in a row!)...

The 'Word of God', usurped by the language of men...and stay true to the party line...there would be no need for a redemtion from original sin or otherwise (to become 'elected') if there were not a mythology built around a saviour (a very mysterious character) who would sacrafice himself to save the many, in a vain attempt to what?...wipe sins with his blood - going 'round in circles really! Illustration of the ourobus eating its own tail.

At best, that scenario is a clumsy attempt to complicate a very simple message, and turn it into something else completely...be responsible for your own thoughts and actions - they have a consequence for you!...and others (and you are all me)...full stop...

Å99

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Holding off, for a minute, on the discussion of the Trinity, do you see Biblical support for the idea of Jesus and the Father both being God? If so, it may be a good starting point.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. No, I'm not going to run from you, I think I'l give you a BIG hug. So there. - C -

reply to post by windword


So far...I am really liking this new Pope...right now he is putting out a wonderful message...(choose to do good).

Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by windword

 

Aaah! Man, I just can't catch a break. I was really looking forward to going to hell....all my friends are going to be there.

Oh, so you knew my 'ex' then?
(Joking here people). Rest his soul.

I have always wondered why catholics were not allowed to attend protestant church on occasion because as my wise friend once objected, "Isn't God everywhere? So does He not go to all churches Himself?" So I came to think that churches were nothing but walls meant to keep people in or walls to keep people out. Neither made sense to me, as she and I were kept from worshipping together by our religions.

So in this speech, the pope is telling me that Jesus came and died for everyone. By His blood we are saved. Whosoever tries to pre-screen me by asking if I am saved does not understand this and is deliberately placing a wall between us. I thank him for the reminder.

How can anyone know someone's destiny and whether they are in hell? Yes, it would appear Hitler was headed in that direction but we do not know Really arrogant thinking, imho, because to say that is to have no inkling about the magnaminous mercy of God. To suppose that anyone knows the state of an individual person's soul when death arrives is the height of arrogance to me.

I really applaud the present pope. For centuries the Christian denomination churches have taught and practiced exclusion. He is tearing down those horrid walls by practicing unconditional acceptance. What a gift to the world that is!

reply to post by windword


john 3:16 ?

reply to post by windword


Jesus did say, from the very cross of all places and even in reference to the very people gathered around who most certainly did not believe in him and who wanted to see him dead - "forgive them father, for they know not what they do."

By comparison to the people who were KILLING him, I doubt Jesus held a grudge towards anyone whether they had heard of him or not, it wasn't about that, but the love capable of transcending and even binding and holding to judgement, all evil on everyone's behalf, once and for all time.

Therefore the reference to the "blood of Christ" is valid, because that's what he offered, as his resolution and atonement to the problem of human sin and evil, so it certainly covers the sins of all. Relative to the love of God in and through the person of Jesus, all hatred, bigotry and ignorance is rendered null. This is indeed good news for one and all, big time, because it re-edifies our stature as children of a loving God, and done in such a way that his love and genius surpassed our ability to undermine it in any way, shape or form, so there it is as the standard of Justice in the form of forgiveness, and mercy as the heart of the law and of God.

This is the true Gospel, that it's for one and all, whether they believe in it or not the way back to God was still made yes by the blood of Christ.

He's right.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Akragon

 

Dear Akragon,

Holding off, for a minute, on the discussion of the Trinity, do you see Biblical support for the idea of Jesus and the Father both being God? If so, it may be a good starting point.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. No, I'm not going to run from you, I think I'l give you a BIG hug. So there.

- C -

Ahh my dear friend... I wouldn't expect you to run from me...

There is evidence within the bible that Jesus is God in the flesh... but that depends on whos words you take...

IF you prefer John... Yes

IF you prefer Paul... Yes

IF you prefer Jesus... No

Let me put it this way... Why would Jesus say so many wonderful enlightening things only to omit the fact that he is in fact God in the flesh?

By claiming he is God, it makes him a liar by omission

We could assume he was God by the statement "I and my Father are one"... but that refers to his essence, as all children are the essence of their parents...

Or perhaps "before Abraham was I AM"... Yes he admits he pre-existed his incarnation... that doesn't mean he was God... We all pre-existed this incarnation... for the spirit is eternal and has always existed...

Or perhaps we'll refer to Thomas, where he says My God... and of course Jesus didn't say No no, im not God...

Why would he though? IF Thomas wanted to worship anyone in the flesh... HE would be the best Candidate...

But he clarified his position on this.... Here

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So... You can take the allusions to him pre-existing this incarnation as him being God... but that is an assumption made by the early church Fathers... Nothing he himself actually said...

IF Jesus were in fact God in the flesh... His closest followers would have made sure to write that down somewhere within their books... but they didn't...

And the reason they didn't is because.... Simply put... Jesus did not ever claim to be God...

By the way, thanks for the hug... I need it sometimes... You Christians frustrate me... but in a good way!

reply to post by charles1952


Thanks Charles,

Let me address the beginning and the end of your post.

A lot of this discussion seems to be about Hell...............
Do I understand correctly that you do believe in a Hell for other reasons?

I believe in reincarnation, but not your run 'o the mill type of karma. Maybe, as I and many others would like to fantasize, particularly cruel and evil people are punished by being forced to incarnate into painful situations of dire hopelessness and defeat. Maybe, some punish themselves, like tortured teens cut themselves and do other horrible things to offset their dis-ease.

Tibetan monks teach that we meet and battle our own demons after death. We carry our victories and defeats with us in the next life. Jesus said what you bind in this world is bound in the next.

I believe in spiritual hierarchy, but not in one that fights our battles for us.

We will always have our souls, true. They can belong to either God or Satan, but we still have them. They no longer belong solely to us if we give them away. Christianity looks at the question "Who do we give control over our souls to?"

I take issue with this mindset. What good is owning our own soul, redeemed by Jesus, if we have to hand it over to either God or Satan anyway? Why doesn't God just skip the middle man, us, and just put our souls where he wants them?

I don't think God wants our souls, and I don't that Satan can steal them. What I do think we can loose is our free will. An addiction, for example, owns your free will. You may want to quit, but it takes a heck a lot more than will to kick an addiction.

I really don't know how to address the Catholic sliding scale of non-belief, except to suggest that perhaps there is reason that God made people unable to accept the story, and that there is a divine purpose for atheists. I've tried to believe, but I guess it just wasn't meant to be. God made me that way.

You mean Muslims going to heaven too? And the buddhists? And the Hindus? And the Sikhs?

Man, heaven is going to be as confusingly multiethnic as the earth.

I just hope, we don't take all of earths problems up when we go.

As it is on earth, so it shall be in heaven, amen.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

You think you're frustrated? Check my social calendar. Black book? I don't even have a black post-it. Anyway, back to work.

There are a couple of things, at least, that Jesus said that strike me as improbable for a mere mortal. One is the use of "Abba." My understanding is that calling God, "Daddy" or "Pops" is something that no observant and reverent Jew would ever consider. The familiarity and degree of access implied here seems breathtaking.

The other thing he said was " . . . but I say to you." Jesus repeats the Jewish teachings as based in Moses. That was as great as an authority as there was. Then he pops off with, "Forget that. I'm telling you the real truth." Here's a reaction from a writer.

Jacob Neusner has also seen this tendency of Jesus to stand in opposition to the Law in the Gospel of Matthew. Neusner says that when Jesus says, "You have heard it was said...but I say to you...," he is contrasting his words with 'nothing less than the Torah, God himself speaking through his prophet Moses. Any observant Jew would immediately recognize that fact." Neusner goes on to say that in these passages Jesus is "not simply being assertive, in our modern parlance; he is claiming for himself the right to adapt, or modify, Divine Law." He then asks of Jesus, "Who do you think you are -- God?"

By the way, I can understand why Jesus wouldn't go around shouting "I am God in the flesh." It would result in either an untimely death, or keep His listeners from the points He was trying to make. He didn't want any glory or personal attention. He kept trying to shift it to the Father and the Kingdom.

With respect,
Charles1952