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Pope Francis: Even Atheists are Redeemed

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posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Faith without works isn't dead as in not alive, faith without works is dead as in empty and not worth anything. Works do not produce salvation in any way shape or form, works are the fruits of a living faith.

Peter may have denied Christ two more times than Judas betrayed him, but one was predestined for salvation and the other one wasn't. It's the way of the world.

And they're too messy to eat.




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
 


So all those people who did good works in the OT were doing them because of faith? How so when Jesus hadn't arrived on the scene yet?

It is a contradiction. Paul says faith alone while James says faith and works. The world is pretty faithful don't you think? There are over 2 billion faithfuls, so why is the world SOOOO messed up?

Faith and works are not the same thing, otherwise James and Paul wouldn't have implied that they were. Conditioning makes you think that, plus your need to erase the contradiction, even if your excuse doesn't make any sense.
edit on 24-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by markosity1973
 


No, I'm not God.


That's all the reply you needed. Any further comment is irrelevant. And for the record, Yes I HAVE read the bible and I do own one.

*discussion terminated*



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon
 



Which explains why Jesus chose paul... the worst tree of them all...


edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


And yet Paul was saved and went on to work in Christ's ministry, spreading the gospel and being martyred.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
 


So I was predestined to go to hell? How is that fair?

No matter what I do, I will always be on the path to hell. It's total BS that you justify that.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Because Christ had not yet come in body and die for our sins, sins were forgiven by temple sacrifices. Remember? Temple? Sacrifices? And when Christ came, a new covenant was made, that Christ's blood would atone for our sins by faith in Christ, salvation imputed upon the elect.

It's not a contradiction because I don't think you're really understanding how "works" play into this. Read the Parable of the Sower. Seeds are seeds, some get eaten by birds, some burn up in the sun, but the ones that fall on fertile ground give fruits.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that our lives will be easy in this world. This world is corrupt, fallen, and destined for God's judgement. We have all sinned and fallen short in the eyes of God. Our treasures are not here on Earth, there is nothing on Earth here worth anything, and even worse, the world hates Christ, God, and the truth of God's Word.

If you don't know why the world is "sooooo messed up", then that sends up red flags for me that you don't actually know your Scripture.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


It's not BS. If God is Sovereign, which He is, then all are predestined.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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He didn't spread the gospel... He spread his own doctrine...

Which was nothing like the words of Jesus...

Paul was a fraud...


Faith without works isn't dead as in not alive, faith without works is dead as in empty and not worth anything. Works do not produce salvation in any way shape or form, works are the fruits of a living faith


25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Peter may have denied Christ two more times than Judas betrayed him, but one was predestined for salvation and the other one wasn't. It's the way of the world.


Yet he even called him Satan.... Judas didn't get such a label from the man though...

I suppose he did call him a devil... Yet a "devil" isn't the king of lies and deceit


And they're too messy to eat.


Blasphemer!!


Peaches are brilliant...




edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Paul was a fraud...


edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


Aaaand your arguments are now null and void.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Originally posted by Akragon

Paul was a fraud...


edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


Aaaand your arguments are now null and void.


LMAO!!!

Riiiight... You seem to nullify your own arguments...




edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


If Paul is a fraud, then the Bible is not inerrant, and therefore not God's word. Therefore, any arguments you make for your position using the Bible are dead arguments, because you would thusly be making them from a book you yourself say isn't reliable.
edit on 24-5-2013 by FollowTheWhiteRabbit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon
 


If Paul is a fraud, then the Bible is not inerrant, and therefore not God's word. Therefore, any arguments you make for your position using the Bible are dead arguments, because you would thusly be making them from a book you yourself say isn't reliable.
edit on 24-5-2013 by FollowTheWhiteRabbit because: (no reason given)


Well at least we're making some progress in this discussion...

Welcome to the world of the real.... the bible is not inerrant....

And if you believe it is.... You're brainwashed into believing it unfortunately... Or you're just not looking hard enough...




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Pictures or it didn't happen...

But really... sanity from monolithic religious institutions? Perhaps the end times really are nigh.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
 


I never claimed to be an expert on the bible, but apparently you think you are. I know enough and have enough common sense to know that it is a contradiction.

If faith IS good works, then why did Paul separate them by saying people are justified by faith apart from works? It seems to me that Paul was saying people are justified by "empty faith", something you believe is worthless.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


The Bible is inerrant. Please provide example of error in it.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Because you don't know Scripture, making arguments against what Scripture is saying seems kind of silly, doesn't it? Would you teach a physics class without having learned physics?

The question of works and faith pertaining to salvation aren't contradictory. They're not even paradoxical. Scripture makes it clear what it's talking about.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon
 


The Bible is inerrant. Please provide example of error in it.



Paul

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jesus

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Whos correct?

Jesus? Or your personal saviour Paulus Christ?




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
 


What do you think we have been doing? You don't see the inerrancy because you refuse to. Why ask the question if you know you're just going to deny it?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
 


So you believe that it is faith alone that saves, but you also believe that works are needed, but you also believe people are justified with faith apart from works, but you also believe that faith without works is dead, etc. You are running in circles here. Too bad you can't see it.

If the bible makes what it says clear, then why can't you give me a clear answer?
edit on 24-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Dear windword,

Cut and pasted? Oh no, I was going to ask for the recipe.

A lot of this discussion seems to be about Hell. Let me get something out of the way first. The Catholic Church puts a very high value on the individual informed conscience. Not surprisingly, that doesn't mean the individual can say "I know what I'm doing, so it's Ok." It's more like "If you know what the rules are, and you're not blinded by a temporary emotion or illness, and you know how serious the matter is, (and a couple of other details) then go with your conscience."

The Church also repeatedly states that the Mercy and Justice of God has the final say in doubtful cases.

All right, concerning the people who died before Jesus:

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

"The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."



After Jesus died, everyone got their souls back. Now we have autonomy over our souls, but could loose them again, . . . unless we believe the story about Jesus.
It depends. (One of my favorite answers.) Has this person heard about Jesus? Can he understand it? Is he free to believe it? Is there something which prevents them from believing which isn't his fault? Technically, no. You don't have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven. There are millions of people who never know about him. There are provisions for those cases.


I guess the question is then, does one have to believe the story to gain entry into Heaven, or does one's actions earn them a stamp of validation, in the eyes of Jesus?
Take an extreme case for clarity. The individual who has an accurate understanding, etc., then says "I hate Him, I want nothing to do with Him, I never want to see Him." If that's sincere, and persisted in until death, he will probably get his wish regardless of donations to charity.

Another extreme case. The person who says "Oh, yes. I love Jesus," then steals, abuses, lies throughout his life. The smart money is on his vacation on the very warm beaches of you know where.

Adam and Eve weren't required to believe, they were required to abstain. If an atheist abstains from evil and does good work, which displays the model of godliness, is their soul validated? What does an atheist HAVE to believe before their souls' gain validation from Jesus?
For those two, believing wasn't necessary, they knew God was real, they talked to Him. All they had to do was follow the rules which they clearly understood. God thought their disobedience was evil. As for the Atheist? As I said, it depends. I'll give you some details if you'd like.


I don't believe we ever lost possession of our souls and I don't believe anyone can steal souls.
I think I might sort of agree with you, but some confusion in the meanings may be getting in my way. We will always have our souls, true. They can belong to either God or Satan, but we still have them. They no longer belong solely to us if we give them away. Christianity looks at the question "Who do we give control over our souls to?"

I don't believe in hell as a punishing place for non-believers.
Do I understand correctly that you do believe in a Hell for other reasons?

With respect,
Charles1952



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