If you have Christ ? You will survive !

reply to post by randyvs


Repent. Satan loves you more than Jesus!

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Lazarus, Lazarus, the name alone should remind you that hell for mankind is the second death.

The second death is temporal, and lasts only until death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Revelation says as much. "Hell" means (mostly) the grave - the usual idea of Hell according to Dante and Milton is a 404.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

You will survive, even if you have to go into the Lake of Fire.

Oh, well that's reassuring!

I don't have faith in my own works, or even in my own faith, but I have faith in the finished work of Jesus the Christ.

It's like you have no self-esteem at all. Attachment issues like that can get pretty dicey, bro.

edit on 24-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Buck up - the Lake of Fire doesn't last forever. It is to burn away your dross, and leave the good intact. I'm sure you have gobs.

Jesus the Christ esteemed me enough to die in my place, so I don't really need self-esteem. It's over rated anyway. I'll take my attachment issues to your detachment issues, bro.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The second death is temporal, and lasts only until death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Revelation says as much. "Hell" means (mostly) the grave - the usual idea of Hell according to Dante and Milton is a 404.

I refuse to close the door on your view. I won't even disagree.

reply to post by Openeye

Dear Openeye,

It's entirely possible that I didn't express myself clearly, that happens a lot. Further, I have no desire to get into any argument, huge or tiny. I want to learn where I am wrong, so I have to open myself to examination.

To take it to it's most basic, we are either in slavery to humans (or ourselves), or we are in slavery to God.

Why can't we simply be free? Why does God (if said God does exist) need to be worshiped? Why not save us from the slavery of the flesh and let us explore creation unshackled from the bonds of subservience?

When people say they are free, don't they usually mean they can do whatever they want? Indeed, they do whatever they want. What are those people following? Their own wants, desires, and passions. Those passions are what control them, even though it's a soft control. If you want coffee, you drink coffee. You are satisfying or "serving" that want. If you are serving God, you are doing what He wants, which is sometimes quite different from what you want. (I'm ignoring for the moment, prisons, slave camps, etc.)

Do not think that you can ever be free. The question is to what will you render service.

God doesn't need to be worshipped. Worship or not, your free choice. If the Theists are correct, then worship just seems like a natural and appropriate reaction. If the Atheists are, then worship is silly.

I do not have to be told to be a good person, I have empathy. Why must one be commanded to do what is right and be rewarded? Why can't we choose what is right independently of command and without reward?

First, where did you get the idea of a "good person?" Why is empathy a good thing? Is your answer, I know it's right and I like to do it, I'm the judge of these things? If so you have no standing to object to someone who feels it's a good thing to kill Christians, steal from the government, or commit rape. The person who does those things is also the judge for himself what's right.

If you say, there is some standard outside of me, outside of other humans, which determines right and wrong, what can that standard be? It can't be blind evolution. Theists say it's God's law that determines right and wrong.

I do not "worship" anything. Unless you believe the love of humanity/intelligence/compassion to be worship. No one in my opinion deserves true worship on the scale which gods command as it is the ultimate expression of ego. Why would one want to be worshiped? Respected perhaps, but worshiped?

Fine, leave the word "worship." If we instead say, "What do you hold to be the highest principle which must be given total respect," do I make it clearer?

I am not kind to a stranger because he might help me,

Then why? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that it would hurt our chances for survival as a species if you kidnapped the stranger, killed him, and took everything he owned. Especially if the person was past breeding age. Harsh and inhuman behavior, but not anti-survival. The weak, sick, and elderly are burdens on a society whose first priority is survival.

Everything we hold dear involves empathy, and the want for less suffering.

Again, why? Where does the principle come from that we must be empathetic or loving or anything else? If it's what you feel like doing, then every person should be allowed to do what they feel like doing.

I do hope for something else, I just hope there is no being who will condemn me for a lack of understanding, knowledge, or belief, or that I slept with someone out of wedlock

There I can honestly say I feel with you and for you. That makes a lot of sense. I think I can help with that, but that's another discussion.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Thank you for the the reply Charles and the respectful manner in which you conveyed it.

When people say they are free, don't they usually mean they can do whatever they want? Indeed, they do whatever they want. What are those people following? Their own wants, desires, and passions. Those passions are what control them, even though it's a soft control. If you want coffee, you drink coffee. You are satisfying or "serving" that want.

Yes to an extent we are a slave to our desires I will freely admit that, but our desires are not absolutely necessary. For example I used to love smoking cigarettes I was a pretty heavy smoker, but after weighing my desire to smoke against the reality of my health I decided to quit. It was a decision made using logic and reason.

Look at the United States, here we have freedom, but that freedom exists within reason. We do not have the freedom to cause harm without risk of punishment. Why? Because it causes suffering, and suffering is the reason for empathy.

First, where did you get the idea of a "good person?" Why is empathy a good thing? Is your answer, I know it's right and I like to do it, I'm the judge of these things? If so you have no standing to object to someone who feels it's a good thing to kill Christians, steal from the government, or commit rape. The person who does those things is also the judge for himself what's right.

Throughout human history we have mutilated our fellow human beings, we have enslaved our brothers, and raped our sisters. Those who suffered through these times did not welcome the pain and anguish which was thrust upon them, so those of them who survived taught others not to do these things for two simple reasons "Do you want to be a slave? No. So why would you enslave someone? Do you want to be raped? No. Then why rape someone?"

If you say, there is some standard outside of me, outside of other humans, which determines right and wrong, what can that standard be? It can't be blind evolution.

I believe it can, as is evident in our society. As time has passed we have manipulated our own moral systems, and by doing so have increasingly reduced the amount of suffering. Slavery has been abolished, rape has been criminalized, racism has been curbed through education, religion can be practiced freely without risk of being burned at the stake as a heretic. These rights and these principles were not etched in the hearts of man at his inception but were in fact strived for by those who suffered by the hands of those who perpetuated the heinous crimes of oppression and bigotry.

What do you hold to be the highest principle which must be given total respect,

Compassion

Then why? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that it would hurt our chances for survival as a species if you kidnapped the stranger, killed him, and took everything he owned. Especially if the person was past breeding age. Harsh and inhuman behavior, but not anti-survival. The weak, sick, and elderly are burdens on a society whose first priority is survival.

Because if everyone did those things we would not have prosperous cities, we would not have intellectuals who study for their entire lives to cure disease. We are not the most successful race because we are the greatest predators (which one could argue we are), we are the most successful race because we cooperate i the most intelligent manner.

[Again, why? Where does the principle come from that we must be empathetic or loving or anything else? If it's what you feel like doing, then every person should be allowed to do what they feel like doing.

No again reason and compassion come in to play as well. Someone who loves to murder is causing suffering, someone who loves to rape is causing suffering. Their desire to do these things is outweighed by the fact that their victims suffer, and we should be free from suffering. Now that is a dream that can fully be realized because suffering will always occur, it happens even when their is not an intelligent agent to cause it, but we can reduce it.

There I can honestly say I feel with you and for you. That makes a lot of sense. I think I can help with that, but that's another discussion.

And I would love to have such a discussion whenever you want to.

Respectfully,
Openeye

reply to post by Openeye

Dear Openeye,

A very impressive post, indeed. Well done.

I'm not going to respond to your post right now. First, it's after Midnight, and I'm not at my best. Second, there is a lot of substance and reason in your post, and it deserves more thought than I have given it so far.

What I would like to do in this post is expose my secret agenda to you. (Which also shows I'm not ignoring the topic.) I believe there is a God, and I believe in the things Jesus was reported to have done in the New Testament. I also believe that he gave us a guaranteed method to get to be with Him eternally. There are other paths for people who have not learned about Him, or died before they could form a belief, or were unable to understand, and so on. But they don't apply to me. I suspect they don't apply to you either.

I'm going to try to persuade you (I'm still revealing my secret agenda) that believing in God is reasonable for the modern adult. I'm certainly not going to try to convert you to anything, but I would like you to treat Christianity as an alternative which you will want to explore further.

Do you wonder why I'm trying to do this?

"It is a serious thing, to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.

All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no 'ordinary' people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations -- these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit -- immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.

This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously -- no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption.

C. S. Lewis

I'll get back to you soon.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


It is late here as well so I will be going to bed, but I eagerly await your reply.

Originally posted by winofiend
What a shame all those babies who never get to accept christ into their hearts die.

Guess it's hell for them.

Actually, if you read the Bible, you would know that isn't the case. When King David's baby was taken, because of the sin he'd committed, we are told plainly that the baby is with God.

Every single time a thread is made about Christ people just bash the bible in a very immature like bizarre way of all violence in the old testament and it is from God.The Romans who massacred Jesus where also violent for goodness sakes.Why do people think God in the old testament is some kind of long bearded guy that walked around town with people telling them what to do.
Also every single war on the entire planet is violent and kills babies and the objective is to kill human beings and some claim God sent them to do it.The old testament violence is no different then todays violence.But guess what there is also peace and kind human beings in the old testament as well.

To me this proves the bible is true all the more and the warnings of prophecy.

reply to post by randyvs


for everyone, else...replace Christ with Buddha, moses, mohammed, Krishna, etc.

just think of all the historical bloodshed because of religion

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Thou dost protest too much. You and I both know we are the ones who make who we are in life. So would you be offended if I said that your success came about when the Almighty Mort sneezed and His Divine Mucus landed upon you? By giving as much credence as you do to what others think, you show you are not truly comfortable with yourself or your beliefs. If you made it as far as you have in life on your own does it really matter what Bob next door thinks, or is his opinion the basis of your self worth?

As an atheist it doesn't matter if my friends and family believe in a higher power. They can pray for me day and night. In my world view it makes them feel better and does nothing to affect my life one way or the other. If I get angry at what other people believe then either I am not truly convinced in my own beliefs or I am just an angry individual.

Also, do not be so self important that your beliefs override those of others.

Originally posted by reject
reply to post by randyvs

 

for everyone, else...replace Christ with Buddha, moses, mohammed, Krishna, etc.

just think of all the historical bloodshed because of religion

Ya I know, the evil men do ! But what does that have to do with my OP ?
Can't you stop dwelling on violence long enough to get thru this post ?

reply to post by winofiend


i thought the catholics sent em to purgatory

Nice counter arguments. What would convince you to believe in god?

If not the bible prophesy seemingly coming in fruition before our very eyes after it was written thousands of years ago, isnt that atleast proof of something beyond the scope of our understanding and perception albeit akin to "god".

Without it the bible wouldbt be complete. How would you explain it? Maybe some psychic along time ago was recognized and the vatican threw it in as the missing ingredien?.

Feeling the world with light and understanding is always good via introspection, works, and knowledge , why not add a little repentance and fear of things we should for refuge and greater spiritual strength,

I don't know about you guys.... clearly believing in the wrong religion...

I put my faith in my Lord and Saviour...the two and only true gods.......

Behold..

have not read all the post but after seeing a few and people saying a shame for the children, dumb people who don't know Christ etc - wont go to Heaven. I in my heart believe that to be crap. Jesus will know if you have had a good enough chance to accept him as the way. Tribes where no missionaries have been and people who were never given the word etc will be judged by different things I guess. Children I think to a certain age get automatic entrance. We don't know the Lords full T&C's for admittance but I know he loves us all. yes even you!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Yes, but as long as you try to distinguish and differentiate yourself from him (who is limitless love) you won't be able to love like him nor wield great power and influence as he did

I hope you're being sarcastic. Why do I want to be like anything other than myself?

“To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson

If 'me' isn't good enough for someone, then that someone isn't good enough for me. I have plenty of people who appreciate me for who I am, flaws and all, and to change myself for the gratification of a person who can't see past their own grandeur is nothing short of degrading and humiliating. I will be no one other than exactly who I am - if that's not good enough, then I will gladly go to hell for it.

or even get to drive a Lamborghini because he blesses those he loves with whatever pleases them so long as they place their heart first on him and on the invisible kingdom of God.

That sounds suspiciously like a bribe, which speaks to the character of the one doing the bribing.

Originally posted by winofiend
What a shame all those babies who never get to accept christ into their hearts die.

Guess it's hell for them.

You'll know soon enough

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The major point of Christianity is that we are accepted and are made acceptable to the absolute perfection and holiness of the eternal Absolute Godhead in SPITE of our flaws and shortcomings ie: forgiven.

So it's all about acceptance and reintegration, but not of our own doing because given the value and the cost involved and the degree of our own trespasses against the holiness and perfection of God, it's not the kind of thing you can brag about as an achievement of some kind.

Anyone who cannot recognize the joy and the HUMOR of this, is rather clueless.

And who in their right mind would reject a gift of incalculable value, that is unearned yet freely given?

It is the opposition to what is presented by God through Jesus that is absurd.