If you have Christ ? You will survive !

reply to post by Mystic Vibes

Nice counter arguments. What would convince you to believe in god?

I'm not sure, I guess I would go with revelation. I have heard stories from people who say the "know" God, and they say the "know" him because they had some sort of divine experience.

I was raised in religious house (I was Mormon) and I was pretty religious throughout my life up until I was a young adult, I never experienced anything though that could be truly labeled divine. For example when I was 8 I was baptized and right before that I went into a room that was near the baptismal fountain. This room was the ward clerks office and when I was in there I saw a door in the back of the room.

Now for some reason at that time I had the most extremely strange feeling that emanated from my "bosom" a feeling of great significance. I thought to myself "That room is important!" Now at that moment I felt that if I had opened that door I would have seen Jesus himself or some other significant artifact of my faith, but alas I was quickly rushed out of the office towards the baptismal fountain. Years later I found out what that room was, a storage room full of brooms, boxes, damaged Book of Mormons and a slew of other trivial things.

The reason I tell this story is to point out how our natural instincts, our curiosity, and our imagination can play tricks on us. The feeling I got from that room was manifestation of my desires, and my imagination at that time.

If not the bible prophesy seemingly coming in fruition before our very eyes after it was written thousands of years ago, isnt that atleast proof of something beyond the scope of our understanding and perception albeit akin to "god".

Where one sees prophecy being fulfilled, I see conjecture being interpreted to fit a narrative.

reply to post by Openeye

Dear Openeye,

I learn much more from people with whom I am not fighting, so, if you don't mind, I think I'll stick with your post. Other posters enjoy fighting, oh well, different people have different styles. But even though I'm not fighting, I do intend to be a little bit of an extremist here, for the purpose of illustration. First, though, your comment about your own decision.

Yes to an extent we are a slave to our desires I will freely admit that, but our desires are not absolutely necessary. For example I used to love smoking cigarettes I was a pretty heavy smoker, but after weighing my desire to smoke against the reality of my health I decided to quit. It was a decision made using logic and reason.

If logic and reason were the only things involved, then no one would smoke. Logic doesn't change from one person to another, yet millions of Americans smoke even knowing that it is bad for them. Their "want" to smoke is apparently stronger than your "want" for good health. Or their want for freedom to do as they wish as opposed to your want for survival. Reason is of little use here. Ask the Americans in the Revolution who put freedom ahead of survival.

Now, I can begin being extreme

Look at the United States, here we have freedom, but that freedom exists within reason. We do not have the freedom to cause harm without risk of punishment. Why? Because it causes suffering, . . .

Someone who loves to murder is causing suffering, someone who loves to rape is causing suffering. Their desire to do these things is outweighed by the fact that their victims suffer, and we should be free from suffering.

Because if everyone did those things we would not have prosperous cities, we would not have intellectuals who study for their entire lives to cure disease.

But, as a firm believer in reason and logic, you have not yet provided the ultimate "Why." Why should I not cause suffering to others if it enhances my wellbeing? If I could obtain a bazillion dollars by blowing up a dam in some other part of the world, why not? If I could have all of my physical needs met by enslaving a thousand people, why not? What logic says I should give up my "wants" for theirs?

We may argue that causing suffering for others is not nice or good, but the slave owner may very well say, "It's good for me. I only have a few years on earth and I intend that my "wants" are satisfied." He might very well laugh at the idea:

Those who suffered through these times did not welcome the pain and anguish which was thrust upon them, so those of them who survived taught others not to do these things for two simple reasons "Do you want to be a slave? No. So why would you enslave someone? Do you want to be raped? No. Then why rape someone?"

He might ask "What's the connection? I intend to be so rich and powerful that those things will never happen to me. Raping people is fun. I do it because its high on my list of "wants." Why should he give up his "wants" for others'? What logic requires it?

As time has passed we have manipulated our own moral systems, and by doing so have increasingly reduced the amount of suffering. Slavery has been abolished, rape has been criminalized, racism has been curbed through education, religion can be practiced freely without risk of being burned at the stake as a heretic.

Just because a majority of individuals can be persuaded to pass laws to protect their sorry rear ends, that only shows they want to protect the weak so that their "wants' can be protected at the expense of the "wants" of others. If there's logic, it's only of the "Please protect me, I can't protect myself" kind.

We are not the most successful race because we are the greatest predators (which one could argue we are), we are the most successful race because we cooperate i the most intelligent manner.

How do we deduce, by logic, that we should be the most successful race, when none of us alive will see the results?

Please remember that these are not my beliefs, I was playing the reducto ad absurdum game. But my ultimate point is that logic cannot get us to where we can say "We should do "X"," Unless we have a good first principle, a "should" that is accepted, logic alone is unable to tell us what we should do.

I believe that first principle is God and the law he has put in our being. It is experienced by people across time and cultures. All men know it to be true. Only by distorting one part of it do we get to the crazy behavior we have today. (And that is a teaser for yet another conversation on what that first principle might be.)

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

You will be my only response. I couldn't help but notice less hate in your post.

No hate here on my side, brother. However, I still think your beliefs are bat # crazy I say that half jokingly, half serious.

Spend less time trying to indoctrinate others, and more time getting to know others You might find that good people exist everywhere, and that your religion is just YOUR way of seeing things, not the RIGHT way.


There is no "RIGHT" way. There is no "WRONG" way. Life is a journey, and we all progress through it, some faster than others, some slower. Some with religions, some without. Some peacefully, some clawing and scratching their way through it.



One of the greatest mistakes many christians make is thinking their way is the ONLY way. This is a HUGE flaw, and no matter how much peace and nonviolence they pretend to preach, this flawed belief will ALWAYS keep the violence and conflicts in full force.

You can't go through life thinking your way is the only way. If Jesus DID exist, I can guarantee you, if you look deep inside your heart, you will KNOW BEYOND ANY DOUBT that he would NEVER have thought that, for ONE second.

You would also find he wasn't a religious man, at ALL. In fact, he openly spoke out AGAINST the religions of his time (Judaism) (Idolism), and it is written in your Bible him doing so.



There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that man needs to "find" in this world to be saved.....and believe me brother, religion is of THIS world, not any other.

We come into this world equipped with everything we need. Our brains and hearts are the doorways by which we experience, grow, and evolve. Religion is a tool mankind uses, nothing more valuable or less valuable I guess you could say, than a hammer, or a car ( vehicle), etc. A tool.


Good luck on your path.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by randyvs

 

The extreme irony here is that in the lead up to the defining moment, it was all "Yesssssssssss!"

reply to post by supermarket2012

Spend less time trying to indoctrinate others,

That might be hard because I haven't spent any time try'in to indoctrinate anyone. Did you
read the OP ? It's just a positive message, that I tried to make available to everyone. So as
to not single anyone out or alienate others. And don't try to tell me how to spend my time.
It comes off a little arrogant.Besides all that, I don't like it either.

There is no "RIGHT" way. There is no "WRONG" way. Life is a journey, and we all progress through it, some faster than others, some slower. Some with religions, some without. Some peacefully, some clawing and scratching their way through it.

Sounds like doctrine to me.

One of the greatest mistakes many christians make is thinking their way is the ONLY way.

Not a mistake at all. Christians follow Christ and trust him. Not you. Christ said he is the only way and I believe him. Because Christ is the way God provided. So it's his way or the highway for us. And we believe for you also.
But that's up to you. A horse can be led to water but it's up to the horse if he drinks. But your welcome to describe your own self governing many ways that you seem to have decided on for yourself. And just fused your own thoughts together and call that a way. Personally, I wouldn't give a bucket of pss for it my self.But
that's me.

There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that man needs to "find" in this world to be saved.....and believe me brother, religion is of THIS world, not any other.

You say that like you're trying to convince yourself. But why convince yourself of something that is wrong ? Oh wait ! I know religion is of this world, But Christ is of the Father. Said it often

RIGHT HERE! ON ATS !

reply to post by charles1952


Thank you for your response.

If logic and reason were the only things involved, then no one would smoke. Logic doesn't change from one person to another, yet millions of Americans smoke even knowing that it is bad for them. Their "want" to smoke is apparently stronger than your "want" for good health. Or their want for freedom to do as they wish as opposed to your want for survival. Reason is of little use here. Ask the Americans in the Revolution who put freedom ahead of survival.

Actually Logic does change from one person to another, there is such a thing as bad logic, i.e. "Jane is a human, Jane is also female, therefore all humans named Jane are female". We have identified flaws in logic throughout history.

Not everyone uses logic when it comes to certain things. A man might not decide to quit smoking, however he is definitely going to look both ways before crossing the street.

Please remember that these are not my beliefs, I was playing the reducto ad absurdum game.

I can see you are writing the majority of your post as the devils advocate and I believe I can respond to the majority of it very simply without addressing all the points as the main question is...

"Why should I give up my want to cause suffering?"

I would tell this devils advocate that he/she is a sociopath and that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. No civilized society can exist without rules, or without cooperation. The more and more "liberal" human society has become in its interactions with its fellow man the more and more progress we have made. In the last 150 years there has been more progress made by humans then the last 10,000.

But my ultimate point is that logic cannot get us to where we can say "We should do "X"," Unless we have a good first principle, a "should" that is accepted, logic alone is unable to tell us what we should do.

Well I just do not accept that as a fact. We have indeed set a standard "principle" of interaction throughout history and it has been expressed by a variety of different philosophers, poets, and holy men...

Luke 27-31

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

The cessation of suffering has always been the greatest human struggle.

I believe that first principle is God and the law he has put in our being. It is experienced by people across time and cultures.

That may be true.

All men know it to be true.

I'm not so sure myself.

Only by distorting one part of it do we get to the crazy behavior we have today.

I actually think modern man is petty tame and tolerant. Now if you were talking about the 1st century then you may have a point.

I again eagerly await your reply,

Openeye

reply to post by Openeye

reply to post by charles1952


Hey you two hands up !
I just want say how honored my thread is to be hosting your brilliant discussion. You're both perfect ATS members.
Please carry on.
And thank you.

Originally posted by randyvs
Well now, I decided to see if this will last in survival mode. And survival is the message here.
But as always my Modly friends, do as you will, by the authority vested in you.

Just a short positive message of hope to all my fellow members and guests,
believers and to the non believers as well. To whom, I would just like to remind
with out force feeding anything to the unbeliever. I would just ask of you to not forget,
these few simple words, thru these times that are filling everyday, more and more,
with darkness, confusion, and deep despair. I know this reads like a sermon but
just read it. It won't hurt and you might just need to hear it.

If you have Christ in your heart ? You will survive it all. All that is coming is ####.
And if you aren't already dead, you most likely still have time. So I ask,
do not ever give up on yourself. If you aren't ready yet ? It's very dangerous but, I believe
that even at the very end. If you call upon the most powerful name in the universe ?
You will be saved. You will survive all that is coming upon the world in the coming days.
Because you will survive even death. It's like a game of Russian roulette but I'm sure
there will be those who pull it off. And I'm way cool with that.

To the rest of you beloved, I say this. Remember !
That when there is no way ? God will make away.
And THE LORD OF HOSTS will do battle for us.

Remember the hope that our Heavenly Father has bestowed upon us.

I agree knowing Jesus is the path that ensure eternal life with coinfidence. If you think like an animal and dont know the Father within, you be judged like an animal that does not survive.

If one goes about killing in so called Gods name breaking the Universal law you will NOT survive

What if Christ was an invitation to viable mutation, retoring genetics, and timelines, in a sort of war game?

What if that is really what all that stuff is about? What if it really happened to you, and physical mutations, and talents, resulted, but no one cared, because humans are very stuck, mostly?

What if the pretty ones are predators, and the ugly monsters are just howling, and crying, for the loss of the promise that Man keeps throwing away?

It is why there are no "good guys", just what some can touch, when invited, the rest is being hunted.

What if it is really not about your species, maybe just a blood soaked software patch to keep a certain narrative in play?

I am just asking, not my department these days, gave at the office, not my rules.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by randyvs

 

The extreme irony here is that in the lead up to the defining moment, it was all "Yesssssssssss!"

I realize not everyone fully understands, although I think you Randy appreciate it, but that right there ^^^ is about THE funniest spiritual joke I've yet told here at ATS, although it's not my story per se even though it's one that has been directly communicate by God in and through the love of Jesus, to yes, even me whereby we're all included as part of the same human family, a family which no power or principality can exclude from the love of God and the power of the cross - what a marvel!

It's as serious and far reaching in it's implications and significance, as it is the funniest thing ever, with the triumph handed over to mankind in spite of what might have been the very worst form of jealousy in the entire cosmos, so while the joke's on us, it's also on everyone from here to kingdom come!

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by reject
reply to post by randyvs

 

for everyone, else...replace Christ with Buddha, moses, mohammed, Krishna, etc.

just think of all the historical bloodshed because of religion

Ya I know, the evil men do ! But what does that have to do with my OP ?
Can't you stop dwelling on violence long enough to get thru this post ?

are you saying people who don't worship Christ are evil?

Let me put it this way: I would never trust a lion from the wild with a lamb just because it was trained and is currently behaving itself. Its the same animal.

If it were a person, he needs to answer for his crimes and be brought to justice.

reply to post by Openeye

Dear Openeye,

First, I would like to complain about randyvs. It's bad enough that I have to appear semi-intelligent to you, now randyvs expects brilliance. It's just not fair, I tell ya. But I do have to thank you for your responses. I don't believe discussions like this happen often enough and it's a wonderful chance for me to learn. Oh, well, I guess it's time to get started with an agreement.

Actually Logic does change from one person to another, there is such a thing as bad logic, i.e. "Jane is a human, Jane is also female, therefore all humans named Jane are female". We have identified flaws in logic throughout history.

Absolutely right, but the laws of logic don't change regardless of who you are. Under what I think your system is, if perfect logic was used throughout the world people would largely come to the same conclusions about right behavior.

Not everyone uses logic when it comes to certain things. A man might not decide to quit smoking, however he is definitely going to look both ways before crossing the street.

Which is a small part of my point. For certain things, left up to the individual, people will use their own desires as their guide. Not that that's wrong, everybody is free to decide what color to paint their room, for example, but for believers there is always one further check to be made outside their own desires.

I can see you are writing the majority of your post as the devils advocate and I believe I can respond to the majority of it very simply without addressing all the points as the main question is...

"Why should I give up my want to cause suffering?"

Thank you, thank you. The whole world thanks you. I am extremely long-winded and a summary will please everyone. That wasn't precisely what I had in mind, but hey, let's go with it. So, Ok, why should I? (says the sociopath who doesn't care what name you call him).

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Sorry to sound like a recording, but why should the needs of fifty people I don't even know outweigh my needs? How did you reach that conclusion?

No civilized society can exist without rules, or without cooperation.

So I have to worry about people 100 years from now, after I and my children are buried? Why? I don't owe them anything, besides civilized society is going to end sooner (Al Gore's global warming), or later (Universal heat death) anyway. I can't save it.

The more and more "liberal" human society has become in its interactions with its fellow man the more and more progress we have made.

I'm satisfied with the progress we have now. Again, you're asking me to give up what I want for the benefit of others I don't even know. What kind of logic is that?

But my ultimate point is that logic cannot get us to where we can say "We should do "X"," Unless we have a good first principle, a "should" that is accepted, logic alone is unable to tell us what we should do.

Well I just do not accept that as a fact. We have indeed set a standard "principle" of interaction throughout history and it has been expressed by a variety of different philosophers, poets, and holy men...

God bless you, dear Openeye, you've made an old man happy. And quoting Luke, yet! Welcome, brother. (If that's not too offensive to you.)

You've found the first principle, Jesus was reminding us of it. He called us sinners because we went away from that principle. That principle is built into everyone, although some ignore it. Respect for the elderly, providing for your family, honesty, sexual modesty, aid to the stranger and needy, and more. It's familiar because it's been put into every culture's heart. Buddha, Confucious, the Norse, all adopted it as their first principle and told men to follow it. That's why the compassion is one thing which we all rate so highly. "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."

Where we go wrong is when we take one good part of it and emphasize it to an extreme. There's nothing wrong with, say, providing for your family. But we probably all know people who have inflated that to mean a six-bedroom mansion, riding lessons for all, vacations every other month, putting millions in trust funds, five cars for two drivers. If you achieve all those things you had better double check to see if greed has gotten a hold on you.

Loving your God is good, but killing people who don't? That's a fatal and damned exaggeration.

Oh, Openeye, what a gift you've given me. If we're together on this, maybe we could explore this first principle more thoroughly, or the Person who gave it to us.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by littled16

 

Incidentally, Hitler was a Christian too. He made numerous references to "God" and his purportedly divine works.

edit on 24-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Hitler was Catholic, not Christian.

reply to post by reject

Let me put it this way: I would never trust a lion from the wild with a lamb just because it was trained and is currently behaving itself. Its the same animal.

Let me guess,. you're a psycho analytical biologist and you're doing a paper on The Lion and the Wardrobe ?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


NAM I'd just like to be the first to say. You have me at an disadvantage this time.
Furthermore I'm sensing this is goinna be one of those times when an explanation
just makes things worse.

But I can't help but respect your persistence brother.

No such thing as christ. it's just a belief and a book and no proof to support it. There are plenty of beliefs and plenty of books out there.

There is no such thing as an external savior, because nothing external can truly threaten "you".

Rapture comes through realizing Christ, the true divine self that exists in all and is all.

Like Jesus said, "the kingdom of heaven is within."

Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
No such thing as christ. it's just a belief and a book and no proof to support it. There are plenty of beliefs and plenty of books out there.

Christ is just another word for divine nature (or Buddha nature, or Atman, or Self, etc.) and there's no belief required. It is an experiential knowing.

Btw your statement is quite ironic... Speaking out against belief while beginning your statement with one ("no such thing as Christ"). Gave me a good laugh, so thank you!

reply to post by charles1952


Again thank you for the reply and your kind words.

In my experience most discussions concerning faith and God all devolve into screaming matches about how many atocities Christians/Muslims/Jews committed vs that of those committed by Atheists. I'm not a fan of such conversations because in the end the conclusion is the same "both sides contain humans".

Under what I think your system is, if perfect logic was used throughout the world people would largely come to the same conclusions about right behavior.

Sure that very well could happen, if that logic is applied with compassion. There will always be suffering and tragedy, and individuals and groups will be the instigators of such things. But we will continue to learn, grow, and refine our ideas about human interaction, that is what we do, we are pattern recognition devices.

So, Ok, why should I? (says the sociopath who doesn't care what name you call him).

Well I do not want to sound like a broken record so I will attempt to clarify my position on the sociopath.

A truly deranged sociopath like the one you present (a sadist who thinks himself superior to other humans, and cannot feel empathy be it due to psychological trauma, or physical defect) cannot be convinced of the things I'm speaking of, or if anything it is nearly impossible.

If one cannot see the suffering they cause and in fact relishes in that suffering, then they should be controlled. It is the result of the imperfect world we live in.

Welcome, brother. (If that's not too offensive to you.)

No it does not offend me, we are all siblings in "spirit", all riding the ride.

I have to agree with all you say in your closing statement. You sound like an honest, loving individual who practices the principle of compassion.

Though after this conversation I will still be an Atheist, I will let you in on a little secret.

My atheism/agnosticism is a personal position of intellectual honesty, not of certainty. I only do not believe because I do not know.

But know I do hope, I really do. Some atheists would find such hope trivial, and to that I say "bleh", I care not for snide pessimistic conjecture, I went down that road for long while and I found it far from personally rewarding.

Oh, Openeye, what a gift you've given me. If we're together on this, maybe we could explore this first principle more thoroughly, or the Person who gave it to us.

If there is one thing I do believe it is that all roads lead to the same glorious pinnacle, so yes maybe will meet such a person.

All I can do until then is wait and see what life throws me.

It was good talking to your Charles, and I hope to speak to you of similar subjects in the future.

Keep on spreading the good word!

Openeye.

reply to post by randyvs

Darth Vader represents the enemy..

Call it a reverse sting operation or a double bind hoodwink at the expense of the evil one conceived and at some level carried out from the origin of creation, with absolute foreknowledge as to what would be required, on the one hand and absolute blind ignorance on the other which just didn't see it coming until it was too late.

"Yessssssssss" while observing and driving Jesus to the cross, and "Nooooooooooo!" once Jesus was there with the final realization dawning that this was God's plan from the beginning of time.

Someone got hoodwinked, and something ended up in a double bind, and that it's the worst aspect of human nature within or wicked PTB without doesn't diminish the possibility for humor at the expense of a failed evil.