The Unforgiveable Sin

reply to post by AfterInfinity

No, there is a subjective reaction that humans share as a result of common animal instinct.

there are universal truths and they are not subjective.

I would replace 'merit' with
'advantage'. When something has
merit, it has a value. When something
has an advantage, it has a value
beyond that of something else. You
worship a deity, not because it has merit, but because it has something
you think no other object or person
has. That's what I call advantage.

merit and advantage can be used interchangeably sometimes.
But how do you admire anything that is not better(advantage) than the admirer in some way?

And to prove my point - answer this
one question for me, to the best of
your Christian knowledge. Let's say
"God" has two choices:
1. Destroy himself to preserve the
universe. His death would instill an
eternity of peace and prosperity for all
living creatures.
2. Destroy the universe to preserve his
own existence. The continual
existence of the universe would
weaken him until he could no longer
do anything but enjoy the agonized
slumber of an old man suffering perpetual degeneration, for as long as
he also exists. To the best of your Christian
knowledge, what would he choose?

i am not christian.

Your question is ridiculous.
1) say if universe can exists without God,why would it bring peace, it would be same as now, and don't you complain that God is not doing anything to bring peace.
2)how is universe saping God's energy?

reply to post by logical7

there are universal truths and they are not subjective.

You are speaking from an emotional perspective.

merit and advantage can be used interchangeably sometimes.
But how do you admire anything that is not better(advantage) than the admirer in some way?

Simple. You admire it for what it is and not what it does. A merit can be one thing and behave like another. Arrogance and confidence, for example. Lust and love, for another. Or even grief and anger. It's difficult to differentiate two expressions of the same device, especially when you probe the matter from an emotional perspective.

But when an expression becomes powerful enough, it affects the nature of the device itself. It will redefine the parameters of the nature, especially if the device is sentient.

i am not christian.

Your question is ridiculous.
1) say if universe can exists without God,why would it bring peace, it would be same as now, and don't you complain that God is not doing anything to bring peace.
2)how is universe saping God's energy?

And yet you clearly worship something, so the question still applies as I would assume your worship has an object of focus...a god of some sort.

The how and why of the question doesn't matter. The fact that you are avoiding a direct answer suggests a complexity that belies the purity of your deity's intentions. This, in itself, casts a shadow of doubt on everything you have told me so far.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You are speaking from an emotional perspective.

thanks for opening my eyes, i never knew that wanting objective truths is emotional.

It's difficult to differentiate two expressions of the
same device, especially when you
probe the matter from an emotional
perspective. But when an expression becomes
powerful enough, it affects the nature
of the device itself. It will redefine the
parameters of the nature, especially if
the device is sentient.

a device having a merit has full right to use it.
You are saying that an expert(doctor, attorney etc) should not give advice based on his/her merit?

When God has merit and so is confident that He knows whats best, you call it arrogance. Yet when you without merit claim that you know whats best you claim to have 'confidence.'!!
i call it hypocrisy and a simple thing, anyone who does not acknowledge God starts to behave like god but without the right or merit for it.

The fact that you are
avoiding a direct answer suggests a
complexity that belies the purity of
your deity's intentions. This, in itself,
casts a shadow of doubt on everything you have told me so far.

your question is again coloured by christian thought. "can god die to save the world?"

i don't kill myself when my pc breaks down to save it!!

How you suggest that God destroying Himself will somehow lead to world fixing itself?

You can ask illogical questions, it does not mean i have to give illogical answers!

reply to post by logical7


I pray to my deceased dog.
He comes through for me 98% of the time.

reply to post by logical7

thanks for opening my eyes, i never knew that wanting objective truths is emotional.

'Want' wasn't the word you used, in case you forgot.

a device having a merit has full right to use it.
You are saying that an expert(doctor, attorney etc) should not give advice based on his/her merit?

Oh, certainly they should utilize their skills. But no one has the right to ask for worship on account of their abilities. To do so is the same as declaring their talents more valuable than another's.

When God has merit and so is confident that He knows whats best, you call it arrogance.

See above.

Yet when you without merit claim that you know whats best you claim to have 'confidence.'!!
i call it hypocrisy and a simple thing, anyone who does not acknowledge God starts to behave like god but without the right or merit for it.

I'll acknowledge "God" when he walks up and punches me in the face for calling him a self-gratifying tyrant. But no, he has to send sycophants like you to defend him. What sort of leader sends his underlings to take care of a personal matter?

your question is again coloured by christian thought. "can god die to save the world?"

I noticed that not once in that whole post did you say the word "Allah". God is a Christian word. You can stop with that particular tack any time now.

i don't kill myself when my pc breaks down to save it!!

How you suggest that God destroying Himself will somehow lead to world fixing itself?

Avoiding the question once again. If the universe and "God" become poisonous to one another, would he destroy the universe to save himself, or destroy himself to save the universe? It's a very simple question, but you are fighting to avoid answering it. Maybe that's because you can't remember him ever demonstrating his willingness to sacrifice his very existence for the prosperity of his creations. If there is to be a future, he must be in it. Even if we must suffer for it. That's the impression I am getting from your reluctance.

You can ask illogical questions, it does not mean i have to give illogical answers!

I ask imaginative questions, it's not my fault you don't have an imagination.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

I'm a supporter of personal responsibility. But don't let that be an endorsement for coersion or violence to achieve one's desires, I also believe in morality and liberty and think one person's rights end where another person's begin.

So you are saying that when anothers rights begin and (OF COURSE) infringe upon yours you cave to their rights seemingly supreme? Do you realize this is insanity speaking; theirs or yours in compliance. Morality has nothing to do with Liberty. One is a self known through your god/concious the other is implied/enforced LAW by others, (as in your liberty can be taken at will by some structured element that deemed you have "broken it" whatever their abstraction quantifies the defintion); you are sunk.

edit on 10-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I'm of the opinion that rights are unalienable. Do you think they are only gifts of the State?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

What was the point of posting that?

I tried to tell you the context was Islam.

Lol

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by vethumanbeing

vethumanbeing
Nothing in your life is left to chance. You planned all of it before incarnating. You had a plan to progress your soul (the fact you forgot the plan is no ones problem but your own) and the rememberance of that plan was the KEY.

logical7
so the idea of full control of fate is to remember what the soul had planned and then follow it whether you like it or not. That sure looks like absolute control on destiny!!!

Laugh at will. It was your plan to begin with that you boomerang and undermine consistantly; as in you are responsible for not following your OWN PLAN. Yes. Hilarious, you are the best captive audience for your own foibles. You can change it, but it never works out as you have contramanded your soul groups decision "oh look thought it (you) as the individual acting for your PAST LIVES" (they live in concert with you through you) and you think YOU can outsmart your own destiny again. Well, here comes another trip to the Earth School Of Excellerated Learning Process to correct or progress your soul AGAIN, do you not find this as tiresome as your past lives do; believe me they are not laughing, more the opposite would be the truth.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

'Want' wasn't the word you used, in case you forgot.

i also remember not saying anything that you labelled as emotional.
Good now we are clear, and lets keep your emotions out.
Don't argue with 'what you expect me to be'
talk with 'me'

But no one has the right to ask
for worship on account of their
abilities. To do so is the same as
declaring their talents more valuable
than another's.

yes, no human has the right. God has a right because, we are made with an inbuilt program to worship and if its not the worship of true God, people will drift to false deities, idols, celebrities, self etc.
Its not God who gets affected by worship either way. He is Al Ghani, The Self Sufficient.
Its humans who may get messed up if they get attached too much to say, a parent, a kid, a gf/bf etc rather than God.
Nobody who is fallible is worthy of that extreme devotion/worship.

"When God has merit and so is
confident that He knows whats best,
you call it arrogance."

See above.

when someone is right, he/she has a right to say it, like 2+2=4 is right and i have a right to be arrogantly persistent about it.
My personal definition of arrogance is "to think oneself as god/godlike"
God by this definition is not arrogant just right.
Arent you committing a fallacy by judging a unique being/power with standards that you use for humans?is God just another human? Who may have talents but makes mistakes, changes mind etc and please don't refer to OT to claim it. Use Qur'an only when claiming anything about what God is or is not.

I'll acknowledge "God" when he
walks up and punches me in the face
for calling him a self-gratifying tyrant.
But no, he has to send sycophants like
you to defend him. What sort of leader
sends his underlings to take care of a personal matter?

i am not sent for a personal matter
maybe i can just present a correct view of God.
You assume a high opinion about yourself and a low opinion of God that God gets offended by what you think and/or say!!
How do you gèt such an anthropomorphic idea of God? Why do you use it? To gain a debate point?
I hope that we maintain a standard of discussion and not go to childish arguements.

I noticed that not once in that whole
post did you say the word "Allah".
God is a Christian word. You can stop
with that particular tack any time now.

do i have to use Allah? Does the word 'God' mean christian deity/idea? Childish arguement, hopefully the last.

If
the universe and "God" become
poisonous to one another, would he
destroy the universe to save himself,
or destroy himself to save the
universe?

your question starts with 'if' i would want you to not forget it when you try to build your assumptions on the reply i am about to give.
Yes "He will choose the later."
although i have no clue what you wanted to prove by the obviously stupid question.

I ask imaginative questions, it's not my
fault you don't have an imagination.

your imaginative questions are designed(i guess) to disprove the anthropomorphic idea of God that only you have and not me.

Its like asking "can God make a stone so heavy that He can't lift it?"

The need for God to sacrifice Himself for the sake of Universe will come when things go out of control for Him.
If that happens He ceases to be God.
A God who got caught by surprise?!!!
Really imaginative! Really human like!!
Really limited!
So really not God!!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

What I'd like to know is why you think that. Why did you get these ideas from?

They are not ideas; they are fact. Where do they come from, they are part and parcel to my core beingness, DNA memory contributes in this as defining a more than likely reasonable arguement (everyone has personal truths they just dont seek them understand them for what they are and acknowledge them).

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Yes. You can change it, but it never works out as you have contramanded your soul groups decision (oh look thought it (you) as the individual acting for your PAST LIVES (they live in concert with you through you) and you think YOU can outsmart your own destiny again. Well, here comes another trip to the Earth School Of Excellerated Learning Process to correct or progress your soul AGAIN, do you not find this as tiresome as your past lives do?

do you even remember what point you were arguing?
I don't believe in reincarnation nor in soul groups fighting inside me to dominate the steering of my body
make a thread if you want to preach reincarnation and i'l be glad to join.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by vethumanbeing

vethumanbeing
Yes. You can change it, but it never works out as you have contramanded your soul groups decision (oh look thought it (you) as the individual acting for your PAST LIVES (they live in concert with you through you) and you think YOU can outsmart your own destiny again. Well, here comes another trip to the Earth School Of Excellerated Learning Process to correct or progress your soul AGAIN, do you not find this as tiresome as your past lives do?

logical7
do you even remember what point you were arguing?

I thought it was a fight over claiming your soul. I am the last to preacherfy anything certainly not reincarnation (where is the conflict unless you wish to argue against thousands of years of Eastern Thoughtforms and countless believers). Make a thread about trivial business? I made one and if I can think of anything more interesting or profound than asking the simple question "AGE OLD QUESTION: WHO IS TALKING TO SOURCE ENTITY OR ORIGIN DIRECTLY not through prayer as it is one way weakness" let me know because I have questions. Go ahead, ask me how that all turned out (NO ONE admitted to having a back and forth dialoge with a God Source)

reply to post by vethumanbeing


i need all the patience from God to even read your replies!
You did answer me though. You have no clue as to what we were discussing. Thats fine, who cares anyway
we have more important things like talking about 24*7 hotline to the SOURCE.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AfterInfinity

NOTurTypical
I'm a supporter of personal responsibility. But don't let that be an endorsement for coersion or violence to achieve one's desires, I also believe in morality and liberty and think one person's rights end where another person's begin.

vethumanbeing
So you are saying that when anothers rights begin and (OF COURSE) infringe upon yours you cave to their rights seemingly supreme? Do you realize this is insanity speaking; theirs or yours in compliance. Morality has nothing to do with Liberty. One is a self known through your god/concious the other is implied/enforced LAW by others, (as in your liberty can be taken at will by some structured element that deemed you have "broken it" whatever their abstraction quantifies the defintion); you are sunk.

NOTurTypical
I'm of the opinion that rights are unalienable. Do you think they are only gifts of the State?

Yes unalienable; however The State thinks these are rights they can manipulate, infringe upon; because, with entropy and inertia the human ceases to be taught, or forgets its constitutional rights. The corrosion of this moral/value system is inevitable and the State will take advantage; its the nature of systems to decompose, or degrade to enable or jump start another. It is unfortunate that the one to replace it is usually flawed or subpar to the original perfect idea.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

i need all the patience from God to even read your replies!
You did answer me though. You have no clue as to what we were discussing. Thats fine, who cares anyway

we have more important things like talking about 24*7 hotline to the SOURCE.

Dont feel like you are alone on that lily pad floating on the still pond. What we were discussing before my mind jumped to another dimension; got to be quick because free associative thought is a disease I contracted at birth and I wander from noun to verb and maybe conceptualize what I think is sentence structure--then away I go again. Ask AfterInfinity; if anyone is more preturbed by my disassociative answers IT is. Still waiting for the 1-888-or 800 hotline number to God be published. There have been a few attempts 11118. I do not understand worship OP, I think it is a terrible idea. It is not what was planned for but of course any potencial powerbase position will be abused eventually. The human cannot help itself in furthering its own selfish causes. I was telling someone recently that I had pictured (visualized) above the Vatican a Giant YELLOW Happy Face Smile Icon "Have a Nice Day" underneath (it is no secret I dislike ALL organized religion) The next day Pope Benedict 16 resigned. RESIGNED!.

reply to post by logical7

i also remember not saying anything that you labelled as emotional.
Good now we are clear, and lets keep your emotions out.
Don't argue with 'what you expect me to be'
talk with 'me'

I am an emotional creature. This comes with weaknesses. I accept this, without the aid or security of a higher power. You can too.

yes, no human has the right. God has a right because, we are made with an inbuilt program to worship and if its not the worship of true God, people will drift to false deities, idols, celebrities, self etc.

We do not need to worship. And should we choose to worship, then let us worship whom we please as long as it harms no one else. Your god is a jealous child, to control our desires in such a manner. Is he afraid we'll find a more suitable replacement for his paltry magic show? Surely such domineering traits are not the result of confidence. Any psychologist can tell you that. It comes from lack of control. But why fear fate? Why does your god fear fate?

Its not God who gets affected by worship either way. He is Al Ghani, The Self Sufficient.
Its humans who may get messed up if they get attached too much to say, a parent, a kid, a gf/bf etc rather than God.

Just as your god gets far too attached to being fearless and invincible. Like every other storybook villain.

Nobody who is fallible is worthy of that extreme devotion/worship.

Why not? If there is no challenge, then there is no test. Who has tested "God"? Who has proven him worthy? What has he lost to earn the throne he sits on? What price has he paid to be called a god? And what price is he willing to pay to continue holding that title?

The need for God to sacrifice Himself for the sake of Universe will come when things go out of control for Him.
If that happens He ceases to be God.
A God who got caught by surprise?!!!
Really imaginative! Really human like!!
Really limited!
So really not God!!

The only god who cannot lose is the god invented by Christians. And really, that makes them the weakest zealots of all. Because they cannot permit the strain of weakness. They cannot admire the victory of imperfection. They cannot be satisfied with the potential to fail.

And yet, every other religion has shown examples of their gods falling. Their gods showed weakness, showed hesitation, showed a change of heart or a failing of spirit in the face of obstacles. They showed that no one is invincible, and everyone must pay a price to keep their medals of glory. They showed that its not who you are, or what you are, but what you do when you have so much to lose.

If you cannot lose, then what have you earned? If you have not been tested, then what have you proven? Mere magic shows are not enough. You must show that you are willing to sacrifice everything that you hold dear. That's what makes you a hero. That's what makes you an inspiration. Anything less, and you are a dancing monkey. A business man. A dime a dozen.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Any psychologist can tell you that. It comes from lack of control. But why fear fate? Why does your god fear fate?

i guess its you who fear fate. God, well maybe He doesnt even exist, but you fear lack of control, the realisation that you every action is pre-determinted and governed by some equation/deity, that you are just a cog in a grand machine that moves depending on how others around move but under a persistent illusion of free choice/will.
You are not criticizing God, you are just revealing your own fears and weakness. If you reflect on it, you may get over them and get peace.

The only god who cannot lose is the
god invented by Christians. And really,
that makes them the weakest zealots
of all. Because they cannot permit the
strain of weakness. They cannot
admire the victory of imperfection. They cannot be satisfied with the
potential to fail.

some atheists take the weakness as a reason to disqualify a diety's claim to be god. You want a weaker god so that you feel good even with your weakness.
You just have a problem, a stubborn refusal to acknowledge that anyone can be superior to you and deserve it by merit.
You push the attitude, "i am not arrogant, i am just better than you" and make it "i am not arrogant, i am just better than your god"

wishful thinking is nice till a point but if you don't realise your proper place in the scheme of the Universe, you'l get kick around by circumstances till either you learn and repent or just break.

Think about it, what if there will be a judgement day.

47. And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away
(like clouds of dust), and you will see
the earth as a levelled plain, and we
shall gather them all together so as to
leave not one of them behind.
48. And they will be set before your Lord in (lines as) rows, (and Allah will
say): "Now indeed, you have come to
Us as We created you the first time.
Nay, but you thought that We had
appointed no meeting for you (with
Us)."
49. And the Book (one's Record) will be placed (in the right hand for a
believer in the Oneness of Allah, and in
the left hand for a disbeliever in the
Oneness of Allah), and you will see the
Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists,
sinners, etc.), fearful of that which is (recorded) therein. They will say: "Woe
to us! What sort of Book is this that
leaves neither a small thing nor a big
thing, but has recorded it with
numbers!" And they will find all that
they did, placed before them, and your Lord treats no one with injustice.
50. And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So
they prostrated except Iblis (Satan).
He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed
the Command of his Lord. Will you
then take him (Iblis) and his offspring
as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you?
What an evil is the exchange for the
Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-
doers, etc).
51. I (Allah) made them (Iblis and his offspring) not to witness (nor took
their help in) the creation of the
heavens and the earth and not (even)
their own creation, nor was I (Allah) to
take the misleaders as helpers.
52. And (remember) the Day He will say:"Call those (so-called) partners of
Mine whom you pretended." Then
they will cry unto them, but they will
not answer them, and We shall put
Maubiqa (a barrier, or enmity, or
destruction, or a valley in Hell) between them.
53. And the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists, sinners), shall see the Fire
and apprehend that they have to fall
therein. And they will find no way of
escape from there.
54. And indeed We have put forth every kind of example in this Qur'an,
for mankind. But, man is ever more
quarrelsome than anything.
55. And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance
(the Qur'an) has come to them, and
from asking Forgiveness of their Lord,
except that the ways of the ancients
be repeated with them (i.e. their
destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to
face?
56. And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and
warners. But those who disbelieve,
dispute with false argument, in order
to refute the truth thereby. And they
treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences,
verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are
warned, as jest and mockery!

57. And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayat
(proofs, evidences, verses, lessons,
signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, but
turns away from them forgetting what
(deeds) his hands have sent forth.
Truly, We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand
this (the Qur'an), and in their ears,
deafness. And if you (O Muhammad ) call them to guidance, even then they will never be guided.
58. And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them
to account for what they have earned,
then surely, He would have hastened
their punishment. But they have their
appointed time, beyond which they
will find no escape.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

Have you ever heard of the Law of Attraction? It's not some spell or magic trick like everyone says...it's just a psychological trick. Focus on anything with enough energy, and everything you do will be directed toward that purpose. When you believe something has already happened, your mind will program itself to fulfill that. When you believe in an idea strongly enough, you live it. Your interactions with the world will reflect that idea, and you will steer yourself towards that goal. You feel, you think, you act, you succeed. We create our reality through that process. Or you lose focus, you slow down, and you fail. There's a very special formula for success, but a great deal of it is your commitment. But that's where it gets interesting.

You are committed to an idea, not indebted to a god. That's the magic. You believe in becoming this idea, you believe in enacting it, and you believe you can do it. And if you take inspiration from the idea of what a particular deity stood for, that's wonderful. You focus on the idea and not the form, the physicality. True ideals are never physical, only seen after they are translated into various mediums. The secret of the Holy Trinity is that you take power from within yourself, focus on the idea you want to be, and enact it. Holy Spirit, The Father, and the Son. Will power, though, and manifestation of the thought.

This is what I believe also. In essence you can make your “GOD” whatever you would like through this principal. If I know I have the power to convince myself anything what is the most appropriate thing for me to pursue.

I can pursue wealth but I think we all know that wealth is no guarantee of happiness or a better spiritual life. The saying you can’t buy love is true. They may love your money but will they never love you. If they do love you they will love you apart from your money.

Of all the ideas that one can have there is only one that is guaranteed to result in love. I will say it two ways. Why not make Love your God? Why not pursue love to find love? If you truly believe what you post than surely you have the power to create love in your life, merely by making love your focus.

Why not become indebted to the idea that only the one who pursues love finds love. By your own reasoning I can now make the claim that I found love. Since I have made love the idea that I have committed myself too. Even elevated love to my object of worship, so that to not love goes against my own self-imposed desire to love. When I go against love I find myself drawn immediately back to it.

The reality for me is this. The bible says twice “God is love”. I believe that Jesus and all the profits were trying to explain this to the people. What did Jesus say, "love one another the way I have loved you". If you truly make Jesus your lord should you not be one who obeys love at all times? What better way to learn how to find love but believe that God and Love are one in the same. The reward for finding love is now that you have found love but also that you have found God, because God is love.

Jesus said that anyone who does the will of the father, which is to pursue love always, will find God. This is a promise, that does not require any faith. Except for the faith to actually pursue love, but do you need faith to pursue love, or should we pursue love simply because my pursuit of love is what is best for the others in my life.

The bible says God is love and if you pursue love you find love. Therefore the pursuit of love is the worship of God, simply because God is love.

Even if you refuse to believe that God is love like the bible says, you should at least be able to agree that if you fully pursue love that you will find love You will even be filled with love/God so that no one can take the love/God away from you. You will be filled with so much love that your cup runith over and others who see the love in you will also be compelled to pursue love.

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

I agree with many of the things you say here. After thanking Allah for a miracle, you can ask "Why couldn't we find this before?"

I do have trouble believing that the only unforgiveable sin is to be a Christian at death. Sounds a little harsh to me. Even Catholics aren't that strict.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I got a question for ya:

If adultery is a sin, then why did "God" impregnate another man's wife? Talk about unforgiveable sins...