Should Scotland be an independent country?

Scotland should and will be an independant country if the Scottish people ever wish it so. But at the moment, despite the recession and the ingredients for the greatest ever support for independance, it still doesn't appear as though the Scottish people will vote in favour of it. Scotland as being part of the UK is a great mutal relationship and we are both stronger together. I can understand the disillusionment the Scottish have with Westminster though but do not think that thought is unique to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, us English are disillusioned too.

But despite our bad points as a United Nation, the overall effect of us standing together allows us all to be stronger. Be careful what you wish for, is what goes through my head, whenever I hear calls for independance, but I wouldn't begrudge it if they wanted to go that way too.

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by HelenConway

 

I am no fan of Europe and one of the issues that I have with Scottish independence is the SNP's declared intention to take us into Europe at all costs. Thing is, if we gain independence WE will decide. It may be that people want to be in Europe (up to their necks in the Eurozone) or, and this seems the more likely scenario, the peoples' preference is to be a member of EFTA (like Norway and Switzerland).

A;ex Salmond is a really nasty piece of work - he is very grandiose and is a power seeker - he cares less for Scotland then he does for his own aggrandisement - he is desperate to be a PM. Rather then a minor politician.

He is a dangerous man and he WILL take Scotland lock stock and barrel into the EU - no referendum will be given for this as it is already clear policy.

reply to post by HelenConway


Alex Salmond is an extremist really. If Scotland becomes independant, then they should look for a much more balanced leader if they know what is good for them.

reply to post by TheWetCoast


You seem like an ok and well intentioned sort of guy - there was no insult intended.

With all due respect though I don't think you realise exactly how ridiculous these claims of national heritage due to an ancestor being born in a nation x hundred years ago are to anyone outside of North America.

And talk of Clan allegiance is nonsensical.

But as you say, you stimulated discussion - and a relatively respectful one at that, and that can only be commended.

reply to post by christina-66


The thing is, Scottish nationalism and independance has always been on the agenda and has always been talked about, certainly for as long as I can remember.
Whilst not being given as much air time and exposure by MSM as the mainstream parties, Scottish nationalists have always had access to MSM and have been given a certain amount of deference and respect.

The same opportunities, deference and respect is not shown to English Nationalists - in fact the very opposite is true.

This hasn't stopped their movement - but it has severely restricted the opportunity to voice their opinion to the masses.
In light of this it's actually quite amazing that there is so much support for English independance.
I wonder what the level of support would be if we were ever able to hold a reasoned, open and honest public debate on the subject?

The perception I get viewing the debate on Scottish indpendance from England is that there is a distinct danger that Salmond and his cronies are in danger of turning it into a debate on their vision of what an independant Scotland would be.
In the interests of an open and honest debate it really has to be stressed that a vote for independance is not a vote for the SNP.

In 2004 we had a vote on a North Eastern Assembly.
Displaying remarkable wisdom we inexplicably voted against it.
If Scotland does vote for independance then the rest of the UK will be doomed to a permanent Conservative government.
That is not a prospect that I look forward to.
I wonder how many who failed to vote in the 2004 referendum or who voted against the Assembly will then regret their decision?

Personally I'd like to see increased devolved power to all the nations and regions within the UK along with a radical overhaul of our electoral and parliamentary procedures giving increased power to the electorate and increased accountability of all elected officials, at all levels.
I'd prefer this to be done within some sort of Federal framework thus preserving The Union whilst recognising national and regional differences and requirements.

In light of all that is it any wonder that my personal opinions are not clouded somewhat by 'referendum envy'?

reply to post by HelenConway

A;ex Salmond is a really nasty piece of work .........

......He is a dangerous man and he WILL take Scotland lock stock and barrel into the EU - no referendum will be given for this as it is already clear policy.

But here's the kicker; Alex Salmond and his SNP are persisting in spreading the lie that Scotland will be granted immediate membership of the EU if they vote for indpendance.

Senior EU bureaucrats and politicians have repeatedly stated that an independant Scotland will have to apply for membership.
This application will take quite some time thus eaving Scotland outside of the UK and outside the EU during it's fledgling years.

In addition Salmond has stated that an independant Scotland will keep Sterling as a currency.

First of all, why would an independant nation want the currency of the Union it had just declared itself independant of? - that's not my idea of independance.
And why would the rest of the UK let Scotland have it?
And I don't think keeping Sterling will do an independant Scotland's application to join the EU much good.

The alternatives look pretty clear cut - use your own currency - possibly the Scottish Pound - or use the Euro.

None of those prospects would appeal to me.

Most Scots want more powers for their Parliament, the devo-max option. That would give the Scottish Parliament legislative authority over everything apart from defence & foreign affairs. And on that option I'd say there's a clear majority in favor.

On independence, I think the SNP have quite a way to go yet. But there is a genuine change afoot, something which isn't really spoken about much. And that's the almost complete collapse of the traditional Labor Party vote in central Scotland Glasgow-Edinburgh belt & it's hinterland, up the east coast too. People have abandoned the Labor Party in their hundreds of thousands. And that's because they saw through Blair and they were heartily disappointed in Brown.

That's now combined with a Labor leader in Scotland Johann Lamont who is as thick as a plank of wood, every time she opens her mouth a whole bucketload of pro-tory pro-business pro-capitalism pro-Britain-at-any-cost sh*te flows out. This so-called Labor leader wouldn't know what socialism was if it landed on her desk on a silver salver then promptly proceeded to punch her on the face, scxreaming "remember me" ? The Scottish tories, meanwhile, they're led by a clueless teenage lesbian. And who cares about the liberals, they're simply dead meat.

And that's why the SNP, Mr. Salmond and his pro independence is flourishing. Because you have to view Scotland and it's politics the same way as it's people are doing ... they're examining the policies, the personalities and increasingly coming to the view that independence is a positive option.

BTW that Limmy video on Page 1 of this thread is simply fantastic.

Limmy is THE man. The tragedy is so few have heard of him.

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


Ironically B.liar and Brown are both Scottish.

and to add, the latest poll indicates only 23% would vote for an independant Scotland at this time.

reply to post by TheWetCoast


OP go home and make it happen.
Im up for a Braveheart 2.

Originally posted by mikeone718
reply to post by TheWetCoast

 

OP go home and make it happen.
Im up for a Braveheart 2.

I know you said that in jest, but I reckon about 30-40% of our Armed forces are made up of Scottish folk.

reply to post by michael1983l


The opinion poll to which you refer is the latest Scottish Social Attitude Survey, from December.

www.scotcen.org.uk...

The question asked wasn't a simple yes/no, it's a lot more complex. Go take a look.

The bottom line of it is that Scots will make their decision on this based on how well they expect Scotland to perform economically as an independent country, that the economics of it will take priority over ever other issue. That's where the SNP are failing to convince people right now and that's the sole issue on which they need to concentrate their fire over the months ahead.

Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
Most Scots want more powers for their Parliament, the devo-max option. That would give the Scottish Parliament legislative authority over everything apart from defence & foreign affairs. And on that option I'd say there's a clear majority in favor.

.

No Way will Scotland get away with devo max - go independent or stay in the union .
Devo Max means the English taxpayers continue to subsidise you.

I want Scotland to break from the union. I want England to have a vote on this - most would vote like me.

reply to post by HelenConway


Aww, do the Welsh get it in the neck too, Miss Conway ? And the Irish ?

Are you going to expel the Northern English ? Cornwall and the south west too ? If you keep expelling people you'll only have London and the south east of England left.

I rather suspect that most Britons would adore such a strategy !

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


I agree with you, I was merely pointing out that the Scottish people are a long way off deciding that they definately want to leave the Union. I hope that they do not leave but it is ultimately down to the Scottish population to decide. Whatever happens, once the vote is made, I hope it puts the whole debate to bed either way.

Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
reply to post by HelenConway

 

Aww, do the Welsh get it in the neck too, Miss Conway ? And the Irish ?

Are you going to expel the Northern English ? Cornwall and the south west too ? If you keep expelling people you'll only have London and the south east of England left.

I rather suspect that most Britons would adore such a strategy !

Ok ok it did sound a bit harsh I agree - but it is the Scottish people that want their vote because the rest of us are so damn awful apparently .. so I say good luck to you guys, but devo max is a cop out !

reply to post by michael1983l


Unlike you, I don't know how Scotland will vote.

I don't know how the question will be phrased. I don't know how the 16+17 years olds will vote (although I suspect most people that age tend to see things very much in black/white terms, support for independence will be higher in the young persons demographic). I don't know how the older people will vote, I've heard some over the last few weeks say that they will vote not for them but for the country they want their Grandchildren to be brought up in ... and some surprise themselves by concluding they'll either not bother voting or will cast a reluctant vote for independence.

I suspect many people are going to be torn right up about this issue up until they walk into the school and cast their vote. Online things such as this are very interesting but most of you are just reading what's being said on the British (English) MSM. The real debate is taking place in pubs, clubs, church halls, workplaces, sports centres etc etc ... that's where it's really at.

Hopefully those Scottish contributors on here plus those foreigners domiciled here (moi) can help give the others a flavor of how things are panning out in Scotland over the next few months.

reply to post by Freeborn

The SNP was founded in 1934, and has had continuous parliamentary representation since Winnie Ewing's groundbreaking victory at the 1967 Hamilton by-election.

You were born in 1965 right? Perhaps it’s because the SNP have had a parliamentary presence since 1967 that you've been hearing the Scottish call for independence whispering in the background of your entire conscious life.

On ‘deference and respect’ – I would say that the English nationalist movement is perceived as being fronted by racist thugs (BNP) but I do think that contrary to your perception many people have sympathy for the English call for its own assembly and can readily understand why they deem it necessary.

When you had your 2004 vote do you think that the people voted (or didn't vote) against their own assembly and greater autonomy? Or do you think they voted against yet another tier of unnecessary bureaucracy (and all of its hangers on) that would ultimately be paid for from the public purse? Thing is in Scotland we’re already well used to this, firstly with our now defunct, ‘Regional Councils’ (e.g. Strathclyde Regional) and now with the Scottish Executive – it’s not a hurdle they have to overcome with the electorate.

Re Salmond et al – the SNP, until devolution, was basically a one policy party and in any potential post independent Scottish election it is quite possible (if every party then represented an independent Scotland) that the SNP wouldn’t win the majority of the votes. Salmond, is for the first time in his political career being regarded as a potential liability for the SNP – he just can’t wipe that smug smile off his face. But trust me, they’ll be honing his image and technique as we type.
He is an intelligent and articulate man who, despite claims that he wants to be King Alex, has in fact been a political player in a minority party for most of his career motivated by something other than a lust for power. If power was his goal in the Scottish political arena he would have joined the labour party. (they say you can stick a red rosette on a monkey and it will get elected round here).

Of course the UK hasn't experienced real democracy in any form at all since Thatcher’s era (at least) and I’m all for your call to increase the power of the electorate (then perhaps they will become an informed electorate) and that goes double for accountability of elected officials. We have suffered a great deal of unaccountability from our elected (and don’t forget the unelected) officials. That’s what happens when you elect monkeys in red rosettes – complacency sets in and standards fall. (I’m not even going to go into the current debacle surrounding Glasgow Council’s current leader).

A Yes vote will give us the opportunity to clear out the dead wood far more efficiently than continuing with the status quo. As a smaller nation one of our strengths may be that being compact we can be dynamic, that we are small enough that peoples’ voices can be heard heard and that adapting to changing circumstances would be a much more efficient process than it is at present. We will be free to employ any democratic system we choose.

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Of course the UK hasn't experienced real democracy in any form at all since Thatcher’s era (at least) and I’m all for your call to increase the power of the electorate (then perhaps they will become an informed electorate) and that goes double for accountability of elected officials. We have suffered a great deal of unaccountability from our elected (and don’t forget the unelected) officials. That’s what happens when you elect monkeys in red rosettes – complacency sets in and standards fall. (I’m not even going to go into the current debacle surrounding Glasgow Council’s current leader).

.

edit on 26-1-2013 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)

Since Thatchers era ??? That is not based in fact at all ... you mean since EVER..

What about WW1 - a million young men slaughtered .. was that call to arms democratic, I think NOT !

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


16/17 year olds won't vote at all as they are not legally old enough to. And also, I do not know how they will vote either, which is why I have said the Scottish people are a long way off "deciding". Even the Scots don't know which way they will vote yet, in many cases.

reply to post by michael1983l


I read that 16/17 year olds will be able to vote in it.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by LeBombDiggity

 

16/17 year olds won't vote at all as they are not legally old enough to. And also, I do not know how they will vote either, which is why I have said the Scottish people are a long way off "deciding". Even the Scots don't know which way they will vote yet, in many cases.

Persons aged 16 & 17 years of age will be able to vote in the Scottish independence referendum.

C'mon Michael, keep up !