Should Scotland be an independent country?

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posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


As an ex-military person I can tell you for a fact there are nuclear weapons stored in England, but I will not tell you where for obvious reasons.




posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 10:32 AM
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Also at this stage, can I applaud LeBombDiggity for the way he has researched out this subject and for the fact he is actively taking part in the debate with some vigure too. I know he lives in Scotland, but he is French and lets be honest, he is putting a lot of Scots to shame with his knowledge and commitment to the cause.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 10:32 AM
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Independence is a pipe dream.

The trend is to amalgamate.

Anyone ever heard of globalisation?



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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What I don't understand is why American states aren't allowed to secede if their citizens wish. Aren't states supposedly sovereign? I guess we should be re-named the United Provinces.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 10:44 AM
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Sometimes independence means just that,don't expect as much assistance if independent.Puerto Rico just voted to join the union and become a state.Kinda funny as a lot of states now want to be independent!



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


British nuclear warheads are manufactured/assembled in Burghfield, Berkshire. They have to travel to the Clyde Submarine Base, where they are put on top of the missiles and then those missiles are put on the submarines.

Once assembled, they travel in a convoy system of trucks, bypassing London via the M25 (yes, that's right, the M25), then either up the M1/M6/M74 through Glasgow via the Kingston Bridge or up the A1 via Edinburgh then again the M8 through Glasgow City Centre. There's similar convoys coming southbound, carrying weapons which need refurbishment, checked etc. The yield on these weapons is beleived to be variable, from only a few kilotons (5 times less than the Hiroshima bomb) to 100 kilotons (naybe 6 times the Hiroshima bomb).

I don't think there's a risk of a mushroom cloud type explosion because there's physical things which need to be in place before the bomb is made active, but the danger is that radiation might be released if a vehicle caught fire in an ordinary road accident etc. There's plenty of incidents reported where convoy trucks have broken down, been involved in minor bumps, even one where a truck had to be jacked in the west end of Glasgow while a flat tyre was replaced. it was believed to contain two nuclear bombs.

My gf is a member of Scottish CND, she clues me up



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by LeBombDiggity
 


What you say there is a very important point though so I thought I would expand on it. The Nuclear Warhead is only dangerous when it is armed and even then it requires a trigger in the form of an explosive hammer type action in the core of the warhead. Basically the biggest threat to these weapons is by theft when it is en route (although they are highly guarded of course) and obviously by fire, but even then it is a relativly low risk and the biggest threat would be nuclear materials being vapourised by the fire and put into the atmosphere. All in all, if managed properly, the transportation of the warheads is a relativly low risk operation.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I do believe that the British, in the main, are a tolerant bunch – and I also believe that rather than sink to the bigots’ level – that we should be doing our utmost to promote that characteristic in all of our inhabitants. It is a scandal that people don’t feel comfortable enough to celebrate their Englishness without being tarred with some slanderous label...tolerance should be mutual.

Nothing has done more to reduce anti-English sentiment in Scotland than the creation of the Scottish Parliament. Most people were actually anti-Westminster....not anti-English. Thatcher’s government’s policy of using Scotland as the means of introducing the poll tax (a year earlier that the rest of the UK) didn’t help at all....the Scot’s are still smarting from their experiences in the 80’s and 90’s at the hands of Westminster.

I did write in an earlier post that the Scots were denied a radio arts show for fear of promoting nationalist sentiment so, although celebration of our culture may be evident, it tends to be the tartan biscuit tin variety....not the meat and potatoes. We’re not so different from you in that respect.


I too believe that the party political system has failed us. There is no choice available to us – no matter what party is elected the same back-room boys are still there running the show. I don’t know how many people are actually aware that a system such as Direct Democracy exists? I think it may be comparatively few but, given the evident success of countries such as Switzerland which use this system (and the increasingly glaring failings of our current system) it will only be a matter of time until voices like your own become a chorus for change. Perhaps, with modern communication, it need not take anywhere near as long as it has taken Scotland to achieve a fair vote on independence.


I know from experience how easy it is to be heard in Scotland (when compared to the much greater population in England) and I simply believe that if Scotland does vote Yes in the referendum that it will be easier to effect more radical changes to our democratic system.

edit on 26-1-2013 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-1-2013 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


Slightly off topic here, but I think that Poll tax is a fairer system of taxation. Your council taxes pay for services, as it stands you could have a 3 bed house with 2 people in it and a 3 ped house with 10 residents, they would both pay the same ammount in council tax. Why should council tax not be charged per adult? The more adults in a residence means the more requirement for social services in your constituency. Poll tax was right.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by LeBombDiggity
 


The estate where I was brought up is probably less than half a mile away from a stretch of the A1(M).
It seems more than likely that these convoy's have passed very close by me.

I understand that there must be a need to transport these warheads and that there are obviously security and secrecy requirements that go along with such transportation.

But I've got to say I've seen many a serious crash on this stretch of motorway over the years and whilst I'm sure every safety precaution possible is taken, (
), there must surely still be some sort of safety risk.

I suspect I may have to look into this further if for nothing else than to settle my own curiosity etc.
edit on 26/1/13 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I lived in Bramhall from the age of 10 (from Moss side to Bramhall
) and near there is woodford airbase I seem to remember rumours of nukes there.
edit on 26-1-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 


Nukes have never been stored at Woodford.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 


Given that it was the poll tax that ultimately brought down Thatcher I think the consensus of the majority is against your viewpoint. What I remember was e.g. extremely wealthy widows living in near mansions paying a fraction of the price of four adults in (not even) minimum wage jobs living in a council scheme that was (at the time) marked as being one of the most deprived areas in Europe.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by michael1983l
 


Given that it was the poll tax that ultimately brought down Thatcher I think the consensus of the majority is against your viewpoint. What I remember was e.g. extremely wealthy widows living in near mansions paying a fraction of the price of four adults in (not even) minimum wage jobs living in a council scheme that was (at the time) marked as being one of the most deprived areas in Europe.


It wasn't a popular policy, in the slightest. But it was a fair and just policy. Council tax should not be banded by how much you earn, it is a person by person service and should be paid for that way. Some cultures that have migrated to this country have the culture of all living under the same roof, 3 or 4 generations of family. Yet they will currently pay the same in council tax as of that of a family of 2 or 3 living under one roof next door. Yet the demand on social services in the former could be 4, 5 or 6 times the demand for socail services in the latter. Why is that fair?
edit on 26-1-2013 by michael1983l because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


I believe we should all be proud of the things that define our uniqueness and various differences whilst also recognising and accepting the many things that unite us.
At present, for various reasons, we don't seem capable of doing either.

I firmly believe we should put more emphasis on that which unites rather than that which divides - divide and conquer seems more relevant today than ever.

The Poll Tax was a disgrace, as was the whole of Thatcher's government.
She purposely destroyed whole communities and we are still paying the price for many of her policies.

I know we have covered this before but the North East suffered at least as bad as anywhere else.

Westminster has never been a friend of the North East regardless of who has been in power.
I can't recall The Labour Party ever doing anything special or specific to help the region, if anything it has just taken the area and it's people for granted - remarkable considering the level of support it has / had in the region.



.....although celebration of our culture may be evident, it tends to be the tartan biscuit tin variety....not the meat and potatoes. We’re not so different from you in that respect.


Not so different in many respects.

stumason has spent much of his own time, and I suspect money, to promote Direct Democracy and it's benefits both here on ATS and out there in the 'real' world.
All with very little success.
It is as if people are conditioned to believe that there is no viable alternative to current electoral and parliamentary systems.
The 'establishment' has much to lose and will do anything to maintain the current gravy train and all the inequalities and injustices that they seek to exploit for their own personal advantage.

I suspect that independance for Scotland will just mean replacing one unrepresentative gravy train with another and that our best chance for true change and reform lies with a strength through numbers approach.

It seems that we may have a common goal, just differ in how we feel best to achieve that goal.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 


Thankfully, thankfully the day of the poll tax is done. You present precisely the same arguments used to justify its implementation in the first instance. But remember? -If you didn't register to pay the poll tax you lost your right to vote. As the POOR adults living in a single household were less able to pay the sum (remember at the time - almost 30 years ago - 4 adults could be incurring a poll tax payment in the region of £1200 per household at a time when there was no such thing as the minimum wage. These families, understandable, did not register all adult members to pay poll tax - and as these people were more likely to be labour voters - the tories used it as a means of increasing their grip on the country.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I doubt direct democracy would work in this Country, just look at who our citizens vote for on Pop Idol and such like programmes. We have far too many people in our society who are ignorant to politics and would cast their vote by whoever the Sun or the Daily Mail told them to. It would be a disaster.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


The implimentation of the Tax was obviously wrong, but the idea of the tax was 100% correct and it should be in force now.



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 




It would be a disaster.


And the current system isn't?

And people don't vote for the party they 'always have' or who The Sun supports now?

Do away with the parties and they don't have that option.

Perhaps you should do a little more research on Direct Democracy and how it would / could be implimented - I really don't want to derail this threa further by turning it into a discussion about alternative electoral and government systems etc.
edit on 26/1/13 by Freeborn because: grammar and clarity



posted on Jan, 26 2013 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


As it is going off topic I have sent you a private message instead.

Getting back on Scotland, well I honestly think we would both be losers, if the Scottish people choose to become independant, so lets hope it does not happen.





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