60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told but minister still says controversial end-of

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
reply to post by 727Sky

 

You must watch faux news and listen to Sarah Palin. I have friends in Canada, England, and the Netherlands, that received excellent health care under there systems.

Thanks that makes me feel better even though the OPs article seemed to imply otherwise.

Originally posted by stumason
Yawn....

Once more, the Daily Mail and it's totally misinformed drivel about the LCP is being used by right-wing yanks as some sort of evidence against national healthcare...

It's getting boring guys. None of you have any idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: Just to clear one thing up, the Government has zero input into clinical decisions made by consultants in each of the NHS trusts. But then, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know this.

With all respect, I did not mean to bring the "Obamacare" matter into this at all.

I acknowledge at least two points in favor of your reaction to this reporting.

One, that it is a salient and well-played meme... this idea of a "death-panel." It is a harbinger of dread, emotionally speaking. It can used as a ploy; providing public inquiry does not persists; which in theory should lead everyone to the same conclusions, by virtue of ostensible "logic."

Two, that the authors of this article seemed to intentionally inflate numbers. Although the actual "sample" as described below:

... audit by Marie Curie and the RCP examined a representative sample of 7,058 deaths between April and June last year

Indicates that it is completely "un-journalistic" hyperbole to render a public press piece "scaling up the results to the potential maximum number of deaths it may indicate. It's a stereotypical tabloid tool. Need I say more?

I still find the accounts troubling and the potential for public harm greater, if measured in saved lives, if we subject our selves to "systematized" care... sure, it's way cheaper... but then, since when is one's well-being less important than money?

Originally posted by 727Sky

Originally posted by olaru12
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Contrast "pathway" with the US system of keeping you alive and on life support, even though terminal, so the drug companies, hospitals, insurance companies, doctors can continue to reap the profits in a "for profit" medical system.

Getting someone into hospice care so they can die with dignity is an arduous task.

edit on 31-12-2012 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

Yes but that will all change under the new and improved health care that is coming to a hospital near you. You reach a certain age no hip replacement for you. Have a treatable bacterial infection your appointment hummm will be in 6 months is 3pm ok?

Sounds like what the insurance companies have in place now; except they can drop you after paying into their health plan for years, no reason given.

This happens in here in the U.S. daily.

Sadly my friend's grandmother got breast cancer and it spread to her major organs, there was nothing that could be done for her so she was put in a hospice to receive palliative care. She was still alert, eating and talking with her family members until one evening they took her to give her a bath and when she came out, she was unconscious and would sleep 23 hours a day.

She died the next evening.

I knew that they had done something to her, and I honestly believe the process was sped up.

Originally posted by Maxmars

... audit by Marie Curie and the RCP examined a representative sample of 7,058 deaths between April and June last year

Indicates that it is completely "un-journalistic" hyperbole to render a public press piece "scaling up the results to the potential maximum number of deaths it may indicate. It's a stereotypical tabloid tool. Need I say more?

I still find the accounts troubling and the potential for public harm greater, if measured in saved lives, if we subject our selves to "systematized" care... sure, it's way cheaper... but then, since when is one's well-being less important than money?

Hey Max, I wouldn't be doing any back-peddling as you seem to be implying by your response ^^^^^^

This is your thread......sure, maybe some tabloid-ism, but someone with some integrity had to approve it for printing?

The key fact that you brought to our attention is that patients are being terminated, without consent. Patient families, loved ones and/or guardians, are not informed of the options, and these poor people are essentially 'murdered' deprived of life all for a monetary benefit. Bottom line, we are talking about thousands of innocent people here.........or am I missing something????

My Father who is 86 years old has Alzheimers disease and on a day to day basis I see him getting worse and worse.
My Mother who is 83 is his main carer and I can also see the strain it puts on her.
I am 1 of 4 kids and with out Mother we have decided to let him live his days out at home as we know he may not have much time left.
I have moved next door to offer what assistance I can but as I have a full time job it is not as much as I would like to give.
After watching him change from a really switched on 82 year old who would still walk up to 5 km a day, seemed very healthy and still had a great sense of humour to where he is now is soul destroying on many levels.
We do get some help from local Government (Part time Carers) but I must admit many is the time when I thought my Mother would be better off without this stress in her life.
Most of the time he is unaware of who we are, often goes back 50 years. Doesn't realise he is in his own home and regularly is nasty to my Mother. Something he never was when he was well.
My personal opinion is that euthanasia in certain instances if there is no hope for the patient takes the stress away from their loved ones and in most cases I am sure the patient would want that.
Right now we play a waiting game, The long goodbye it has been called.
To quote Tom Petty"" The waiting is the hardest part""But when its family, You do what you have to do and we've chosen to keep him with us as long as we are able.

As to the OP'S thread that is disgusting that for money these homes would terminate a persons life and I can see how it could happen when the patient didn't have family to protect him.
I saw my Grandmother in an aged care facility back in the 90's, If I have my way my parents are not going in to one of them , I dont trust them.
They are businesses and as such are run as businesses and obviously the bottom line is more important than the patients health, As such they take their pension and often require more money in order to provide.
Sadly the western world doesn't have a high regard for the elderly.

I found another news source on it that seems interesting:

www.yorkshireeveningpost.c... o.uk/news/health-news/nhs-choices/what-is-the-liverpool-care-pathway-1-5087103

It's so hard to believe that they are having doctors randomly deciding to remove feeding tubes when we have people in the states that have been in comas for 40 years. My brain is balking that they are trying to pass this off as normal. Shouldn't all patients die when they die, feeding tubes and oxygen tubes intact? It is a very weird idea.

Although I wouldn't personally want to spent an extended period of time wasting away on machines.

Maybe it is more humane. The more I think about it, the more sympathy I feel for the patients and doctors. The family members that are griping, it's not really about them, is it?

The extremely terminal and the extremely elderly are the ones on the program, I gather.

In the USA we call this hospice care, it is normal here.

You get sent to one to die without any life saving care. The only thing they'll do for you is give you pain meds.

reply to post by Maxmars


Explanation: S&F!

Completely Outrageous and Disgusting! OBSCENE!

Ok now ... the only solution I can currently think of to subvert and overide the Insurance companies attempt to minimize health care costs IS ...

A Living Will aka Technically : Advance health care directive [wiki]

NOTE The above is similar BUT very different to a traditional will and testiment. Will (law) [wiki]

When the living will is overridden by the insurance companies ... that possibly allows the executor of the living will to sue them civily.

Personal Disclosure: I advocate that everybody who can have a living will regardless of whether it applies in this thread or not. I hope this is not off topic.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
60...ahem...Thousand?? I cannot grasp the logic to justify this. There are people sitting in prison right now in our nation and will be there for life. They've killed maybe 1 or 2 people. The worst serial killers? Maybe a couple dozen that I know of for U.S. "records". 60,000? I guess when the numbers become that large, they aren't lives anymore. They're statistics.

You know what always leaves me with a burning curiosity? These people who talk up the barbaric "protocol" I've heard described here? How content and accepting will they be when that day comes that they are told it's their turn to die from a lack of food and water? I wonder...will they be as stoic in their own fate as they seem to be in sending so many others? Somehow I rather doubt that'll be the case but who knows. They may be that cold, even to themselves?

Hi Wrabbit2000,

My first thought to what you said about when it's their turn to face death by dehydration and starvation was MONEY! I bet if you are wealthy, you get the proper care and treatment and make a good recovery. I wonder if the Pathways program only deals with "Ordinary Folks." The replaceable "worker bees" the poor, etc.

It's really scary to say the least.

Repectfully,
yesterday

What do you all think of this "death care" system?

I would tell you what I think, but the post would be removed immediately for T&C violations.

This is what they did to my mother right in front of me 6 years ago. It didn't take "29 hours", it took 5 days! They didn't tell me what they were doing, they just implemented their plan, which took me 12 hours to finally figure out, and I went total Darkside on them.

She had advanced breast cancer, she was physically weak, but she was sharp and tried telling me what they were doing her last day alert & conscious. I regret not believing her at the time.

It took her 5 days to finally pass on from lack of water & nutrition, while I watched totally helpless to stop them. I did not sleep for the entire 5 days, in a nursing home, not a hospital. I had help from my Adderall script to keep me awake that long.

They killed my mother, she wasn't ready to go, but THEY made that decision for her, based on $$$.
Human life is valued in Dollars & Euros. Ask Magic Johnson how his AIDS is.

This is world is run by sick people.... who have another angry Jedi to deal with & who won't stop until the depopulation agenda ends.

In hospice care, after a patient is admitted it can sometimes take weeks to even a couple months for the patient to finally pass. After a while a patient will sometimes fall into more declined state where they just stare, they might be able to open their mouth yet to some extent or move limbs, or even make sounds, but when you try to feed them or give them water they simply do not swallow anymore. At all. It just doesn't register. This stage of death can last many days, even up to a week or so. The only thing to do is to stop offering fluids and nutrition as there's no point anymore (giving fluids to someone who cannot swallow will make them aspirate, aka it will go right into their lungs and they can suffocate to death) and just wait how ever many days it takes for them to die.

Noone here has yet mentioned Agenda 21's part in this 'pathway' care. My Own father who was feeble but alert and under care of IHS died a completely dessicated dehydrated death. He served his Tribe and family his whole life and was very well loved in his community. What I witnessed was: 1st, the census telling it's workers tribal funding depended on the cencus, secondly that tribes needed to keep enrollment numbers in line with deaths as the best way to allocate limited resources, Then I saw this 'pathway' program implemented as elders died similarly on reservations from illnesses they could have recovered from and were doused with Morphine, which slows heart rate and breathing-In my Dad's case he had overcome congestive heart failure 9 years prior and had low blood Pressure-the absolute worst candidate for morphine imaginable .I decided to study on the depopulation aspects of Agenda 21. Obamacare is much less of a worry than the bigger issue of Agenda21 brought forth by the UN and WHO-much of it through vaccinations, some through CODEX ALIMENTARIUS to prevent people from getting healing supplements that detract from pharma rx's. We'll be battling all year for our own right to be free of toxins in our air, water, food (notice the FDA pushed through GMO Salmon on Christmas eve?) forcibly injected into our blood, exposed to EMF and satellite radiation as well as in cell towers and phones. This pathwy program needs to be outed wherever we are finding evidence of it's use!.

Government shouldn't be involved in health care.

Looking for change?...Look no further than........oh

Inbox me for a chat, maybe form a collective?

I've just been through this system with my grand mother. She went into hospital a week before Xmas with pneumonia. She was 85 and had smoked all her life. The Pneumonia had spread all throughout her lungs. The doctors and nurses tried every antibiotic available to no avail. So they discussed the pathway with my family and it was agreed that this was the most humane way available.

People have a real misunderstanding of this pathway and daily mail reports only make things worse. It was hard enough for my family, without having these type of articles confusing the reality of the situation.

The most humane thing to have done for my grandmother would have been to the morphine dose to a fatal level. But of course that would be murder. So the alternative is to keep a dying person alive and in terrible pain. The doctors and nurses were amazing and did everything they could to keep her comfortable despite the inevitable.

Keeping a dying person alive just seems more cruel to me. I mean how long do you want someone to keep you alive, knowing full well you are dying. When all your organs are failing and you no longer have consciousness. That seems more sick and twisted than this pathway. But I guess the Daily mail, the font of all knowledge knows best

Yes, its very cruel to KEEP people alive. Some keep them alive even though they are just vegetables and don't have any brain activity. Or they are suffering months without any possibility to heal. If there is no hope and they are suffering, why they should be forced to stay alive???

reply to post by OmegaLogos


If you were dying, organ failure, the end. Would you rather you were forcefully kept alive just to placitate the readership of the daily mail?

People have such a misunderstanding of this path way it's scary. Wanting to keep a dead person alive? That's just so much more disrespectful.

I know when my time is up, I'd rather someone make the process as quickly and dignified as possible, rather than drag out the painful and undignified death. Unfortunately that would mean someone delivering a lethal dose of morphine, which would be considered murder.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Explanation: I WANT MY WISHES FOLLOWED REGARDLESS OK!

Personal Disclosure: It's not about the money ... I would have paid for my insurance already ... therefor its covered .. if it isn't ... its not insurance .. it is a SCAM!