60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told but minister still says controversial end-of

reply to post by olaru12

But currently if you are poor or indigent without any insurance; the chances of surviving even an ordinary event like a heart attack...see ya on the otherside, you worthless piece of human filth. This is the American future with a greater and greater divide between the wealthy and the rest of us.

more bullcrap..........hospitals have to treat you regardless.............this argument has been beaten to death by liberals and its an outright lie.............spewed over and over and over again.........

Its what the liberal left does........its a tactic......

Repeat the same crap over and over and over again even if its not true, until its accepted as truth.......

Anyone who has worked in the healthcare field, or directly with insurance companies, or meidcare/medicaid, knows exactly how all this crap works, exactly how broke the system is.......

and exactly what drivel spewed by the left are lies.............

So would the rest of the American people if they would do just the smallest amount of research

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


The hospitals "treat you" but they slowly let you die....

reply to post by woodwardjnr


So everyone on this "Pathway" plan, is old and has multi-organ failure BEFORE they are placed on the plan? Do you have a source for this, or is it just your assumption?

Originally posted by essanance
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

For those who are dieing and have no paths left yes but not those who are being drugged out because the FED doesnt want to pay for the treatment to save them ...

That's not the case, so don't worry about that.

reply to post by BMorris


Here's a link to the Liverpool care pathway site. It clearly explains what it is intended for. Unfortunately death is a grim business, but the pathway was established by the Marie Curie charity. A highly respected charity. This has nothing to do with government.

The LCP is an integrated care pathway that is used at the bedside to drive up sustained quality of the dying in the last hours and days of life. It is a means to transfer the best quality for care of the dying from the hospice movement into other clinical areas, so that wherever the person is dying there can be an equitable model of care. The LCP has been implemented into hospitals, care homes, in the individuals own home / community and into the hospice. The LCP is not the answer to all our needs for care of the dying but is a step in the right direction.

www.liv.ac.uk...

The implementation of anything like this is obviously not something taken lightly, but as more hospitals take on the roles of hospices, then we are talking about those who are dying.

Let me just ask you. One day you will die. Eventually something will get you. If you end up in hospital, would you rather be kept alive, knowing full well you are dying, knowing the food and water will prolong or even worsen your situation? Or would you rather be left with as much pain reduction as legally permitted to help you on the inevitable journey?

Originally posted by stumason
Yawn....

Once more, the Daily Mail and it's totally misinformed drivel about the LCP is being used by right-wing yanks as some sort of evidence against national healthcare...

It's getting boring guys. None of you have any idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: Just to clear one thing up, the Government has zero input into clinical decisions made by consultants in each of the NHS trusts. But then, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know this.

edit on 31/12/12 by stumason because: (no reason given)

They may have "Zero" input into clinical decisions, why then are they voting on changes to laws that involve clinical outcomes?, outcomes that involve literally the very lives of those that will be affected.
I have no doubt that this form of treatment is good for some patients who have had enough.

This form of treatment should only be given to people who have consented to it, it should not be "Foisted" on people who are not/cannot be, a part of the decision making process.
I do not see the difference between a mass murderer such as doctor harold shipman who used opiates to dispatch/euthanise patients and a government that has legalised the same process, what is the difference?, they both have the same type of blood on their hands.

Have you any idea how simple it is to make a person look as though they are completely unconscious by using opiates such as I.V morphine?, could you tell the difference by looking at an unconscious person whether or not they were in that state due to administration of drugs, or, because their illness has progressed to a point where it is causing them to be unconscious?.
I have the impression that my uncle may have complained that he was in pain, and that the staff moved his regime from oralmorph to IV morphine, we are then informed that he is unconscious, and the decision is made to withdraw food and fluids.

I think patients are not being given enough of an adjustment period to new drug regimes, it can take 5 or 6 days for someone to get used to having I.V morphine in their system and to be able to function with any kind of normality and not look as though they are unconscious, when in reality they are literally "Smacked Out" on the quantity of drugs that have been introduced to the body.

I know this isn't the case for every patient, i don't believe enough is being done to ensure the regime is being used as it is meant to be, it is a little too convenient to have unconscious patients out of the decision making process, when decisions in that persons best interest are being made for them, it is open to abuse.

put the queen her husband, charles and camila and the prime minister on the pathway and you will be amazed how quick it is stopped.

reply to post by proteus33


Actually, the Queen Mother herself died from multiple organ failure stemming from a cold/viral infection which lasted for 4 months. She "died in her sleep" after an extended illness. You can bet your bottom dollar that in her last days, it would have been nothing more than pain management and waiting for the inevitable.

When the time comes, there is bugger all anyone can do aside make it easier, be they a Queen or a beggar.

Originally posted by korathin

You have to remember that leftists are usually psychopaths/sociopaths, and deep down inside they want to butcher millions of people. That is why lefties want to take away peoples guns and why lefties want to tax people into starvation because they want to see people die.

And unfortunately you are right. Not all of them, but a mayority of them are the same kind of people who put Hitler in power, and sided with him, as well as every other leftwinger dictator you can find anywhere in the world...

Many, if not most leftwingers want to have a sense of power, and control over other people which is why they want to give more power to the government, thinking that gives them more power through a third party since they agree with the leftwing government... The thing is they haven't thought it through, like they NEVER do. At the end even they get sent to the brainwashing/indoctrination camps, or even the gulags.

Look at the indefinite detention Obama clearly stated he wanted to make legal, and STILL HE GOT ELECTED...

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Guess what?... ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE...

Didn't you read that many of them were not even asked, or told about this, and even their families were kept in the dark?... The hospital/government made the decision instead of allowing the people to make the decision, and btw since hospitals in the UK are nationalised, it does have to do with government...

Originally posted by olaru12
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Contrast "pathway" with the US system of keeping you alive and on life support, even though terminal, so the drug companies, hospitals, insurance companies, doctors can continue to reap the profits in a "for profit" medical system.

Getting someone into hospice care so they can die with dignity is an arduous task.

edit on 31-12-2012 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

Hospice is not arduous and the extreme methods of keeping one alive are done at the demands of the family who insist that "everything be done" to keep grandpa alive. I've seen fights where terminally ill elders were kept unecessarily on machines because one or more of the children had issues to work out. I know that this is ATS, but not everything is a grand conspiracy.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by olaru12
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Contrast "pathway" with the US system of keeping you alive and on life support, even though terminal, so the drug companies, hospitals, insurance companies, doctors can continue to reap the profits in a "for profit" medical system.

Getting someone into hospice care so they can die with dignity is an arduous task.

edit on 31-12-2012 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

Hospice is not arduous and the extreme methods of keeping one alive are done at the demands of the family who insist that "everything be done" to keep grandpa alive. I've seen fights where terminally ill elders were kept unecessarily on machines because one or more of the children had issues to work out. I know that this is ATS, but not everything is a grand conspiracy.

This is exactly what i stated earlier..........I use to work for a hospice company, and then later on very closely with them for about 5 years........

It takes little more then a phone call or a referral to get it rolling, many times, depending on the relationship with tthe hospital, the hospital will actually recommend hospice to the families of the patient and set up the meeting....

The problem is people like the poster you were replying to, like to pull the ol "Repeat it until they believe its true" routine............

They also spout crap like this, knowing that a large number of people wont know the difference.........thats how they got some much support behind this bill in the first place..............ignorance of the facts..........

The people who actually KNOW how the system works and can forsee whats coming down the line, want as far away from this program as possible

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Ideally one would be able to request an assisted suicide in a living will, but currently that is illegal here in the uk. So the medical profession do all they can. I mean they pretty much knew my grand mother was going to die, but it didn't stop them trying 3 different anti biopics to try to save her. At 85 and a heavy smoker there is only so much you can do. Unless you want to think of more ways to keep the dying alive longer?

This is not the ideological debate you are looking for. It's about palliative care for the dying. People like yourselves are not providing an alternative. Just moral outrage about something you don't understand.

But then I'm just a pscopathic sociopath leftist who enjoys killing the elderly.

It appears to me that many here do not understand or are ignoring exactly how the Liverpool care pathway works.

I am a nurse who regularly has to implement and work with the LCP. There are very strict guidelines as to when it is used and it is normally implemented as part of a multi-disciplinary team, ie: Doctors and Nurses - we all contribute and descision is joint, though it is the Doctor that has the final descision.

LCP's are only brought in when 2 or more of the 4 factors are presenting and death is within a few days. These are for patients that are terminal with no chance of recovery and are normally in pain, ie: cancer patients.

Consent is of course gained where possible, if the patient is able. If they are unable to communicate, then the Doctor uses 'implied consent' and makes the descision for them in their best interest.

The LCP is also a legal document that is used by the Coroner, so LCP's are not to be taken lightly.

The Daily Fail, likes to make big issues out of any tabloid type subjects that will attract its readers and never mind the facts behind them.

reply to post by Wotan


I have no doubt that the structure of the process is well-defined.

I just have a real problem allowing for a clinically-detached medical professional to presume he or she is acting according to the 'best outcome' of their patient. Especially considering that 'death' is difficult to accept as a desired outcome based on anything less than 'explicit' consent.

The shocker for me wasn't the idea that some people seek death to escape a torturous physical ailment. It's that so many thousands seemed ready to assert they had no idea this was a potential outcome.

From my personal perspective (as I have said before) "giving up" on a patient is not something I want codified into policy, let alone governance.... and I retain enough faith in miracles (this is also personal) to lament that some may never come to pass... because a table of conditions and the intentions of a physician preclude it.

I suppose the fact that it is also a fiscally beneficial policy appears to taint the 'good spirit' any medical professional may hold to. Sadly, when a loved one is dying, it is natural to perceive the circumstance as a victim - so those who were 'surprised' about this also naturally, feel offended and slighted by doctors who they believe traditionally seek to do no harm.

I have to say that here in the US it is not much different unless you stand up for your family member. My lady and I took care of her Aunt Lee after she had a stroke. We drove to San Antonio from Virginia so she could say he last goodbye. She was at manor Care Nursing Home in a secured area because she had escaped and tried to go home. The stroke really hurt her cognitive skills.

When we arrived Lee was in a 6x8 room with the door locked and strapped into a gerry chair. Her eye was oozing interocular fluid; she had a broken collar bone and three broken fingers. Lee was very combative.

To make the story short because it is an adventure I would wish on no one. The nursing home director said Lee had about 3-4 months left to live. Sharon cried. We set into motion a six year education in elder care and fighting for proper medical care from a system that would have neglected her to death ......

Lee lived for 6 1/2 years before passing because he body quit producing white blood cells......

We had to fight for care the whole way. I imagine many families do not have the knowledge or experience to know whether their loved one is getting proper treatment or not .........

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by olaru12

 

But currently if you are poor or indigent without any insurance; the chances of surviving even an ordinary event like a heart attack...see ya on the otherside, you worthless piece of human filth. This is the American future with a greater and greater divide between the wealthy and the rest of us.

more bullcrap..........hospitals have to treat you regardless.............this argument has been beaten to death by liberals and its an outright lie.............spewed over and over and over again.........

Its what the liberal left does........its a tactic......

Repeat the same crap over and over and over again even if its not true, until its accepted as truth.......

Anyone who has worked in the healthcare field, or directly with insurance companies, or meidcare/medicaid, knows exactly how all this crap works, exactly how broke the system is.......

and exactly what drivel spewed by the left are lies.............

So would the rest of the American people if they would do just the smallest amount of research

I have seen people stabilized then pushed out the door at Roanoke Memorial Hospital...... Yes they have to treat you but only if it is life threatening medical emergency......