Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Thank you for the support

Maybe I'm not being clear enough... I'm not saying that I haven't learned anything from this experience, or that good hasn't come from it -- I wrote a blog for about six months after she died and I've had a number of people contact me over the years through that, to say that it helped them, and I continue to talk with them and pray for them, particularly at the holidays, because that's the hardest time for many who lose their wives and husbands.

No, what I question is why I would HAVE to learn that lesson. Why my wife would HAVE to learn the lesson of dying at such a young age, seeing the dreams that she had of the future evaporate... no grandchildren, no retirement, no traveling to the places she dreamed of seeing... heck, just leaving Oscar the dog behind would cause her no end of pain.

I suppose that what I'm really railing against is the supposition that she and I would have chosen these events, as some people believe. Only an insane person would subject themselves to the pain that I've gone through, and seen many others go though. There is no lesson in traumatic grief.

Trying to catch up here...

I feel for your loss my friend... but take comfort in knowing that the loved ones we lose are not gone...

Blessed are those that mourn?

Have you ever seen this movie?



I apologise if its not appropriate

Originally posted by Akragon
I feel for your loss my friend... but take comfort in knowing that the loved ones we lose are not gone...

Thanks. I know that they are not, having the experience that I have these past three years.

Blessed are those that mourn?

Meh, not so much, lol. At least as of now.

Have you ever seen this movie?

I did, watched it on Netflix after someone here posted that "Vision of Heaven" scene.

Didn't like the message or the ending, of course, but it was a decent film.

reply to post by adjensen


Tell me... what is your take on John 3?

More specifically the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Tell me... what is your take on John 3?

More specifically the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus...

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. His lecture to Nicodemus is pretty much a restating of what he's doing there -- a summary of the rest of the New Testament, in a way.

If you mean that he's talking about reincarnation there, I don't see it, sorry.

Originally posted by Advantage
reply to post by Klassified

 

Please dont lump all belief systems of "aboriginals" together as if all are the same. Its incorrect. Im Blackfeet.. as in my parents were born on rez. My folks do NOT believe in reincarnation and that the life of the dead was as real as the life of the living. They live it much the way we do in this world. It gets really tedious on ATS when "indians" are all lumped together. Our society, culture, dress, diets, physiology, and belief system are widely varying from tribe to tribe and even sometimes within the tribe the systems vary. Its like saying " all Europeans believe blah blah blah".

A welcome post and correction, Advantage. Thank you.

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I think the best way to start this road would by reading the Gospel. I think you will find a great read in page 50 (66 in the pdf) regarding reincarnation. I'll try to post answers in the limit of my knowledge according to the posts in the topic.

I really hope you enjoy it, in my experience what brought me to this was the idea of different worlds and how everything can be explained rationally. I'm a scientist and this is appealing to me, I have a lot of friends in this journey with me and we all enjoy how the ideas are presented and explained.

Gospel According to Spiritsm - Allan Kardec

Thank you for this PDF. I printed out the first 75 pages to take to work tonight. Looks like it is over 300 pages total. This should give me something to do for awhile.

I would really like to join in on this, but my time is limited during the work week. I don't feel I can articulate what I want to say without having time to think through my thoughts, and gather my resources. Maybe this weekend...

Awesome post!

To be honest, I believe that it is normal to wonder what awaits us after, as the opposite belief that this is all there is and ever will be is really quite depressing. In my opinion, the simple fact of the matter is that nobody knows, or can know until we take that trip for ourselves. Still it is interesting to wonder. Reminded me of a short story that was posted here before by someone else. I am going to repost it as I kinda liked it and thought it was good food for thought.

The Egg

By: Andy Weir



You were on your way home when you died.

It was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off, trust me.

And that’s when you met me.

“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”

“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point in mincing words.

“There was a… a truck and it was skidding…”

“Yup,” I said.

“I… I died?”

“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies,” I said.

You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked. “Is this the afterlife?”

“More or less,” I said.

“Are you god?” You asked.

“Yup,” I replied. “I’m God.”

“My kids… my wife,” you said.

“What about them?”

“Will they be all right?”

“That’s what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”

You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Or possibly a woman. Some vague authority figure, maybe. More of a grammar school teacher than the almighty.

“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way. They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. Your wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation, she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”

“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”

“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”

“Ah,” you said. “So the Hindus were right,”

“All religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.”

You followed along as we strode through the void. “Where are we going?”

“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”

“So what’s the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate, right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”

“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.”

I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic than you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part of yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.

“You’ve been in a human for the last 48 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of your immense consciousness. If we hung out here for long enough, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point to doing that between each life.”

“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”

“Oh lots. Lots and lots. An in to lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around, you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 AD.”

“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”

“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”

“Where you come from?” You said.

“Oh sure,” I explained “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there are others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there, but honestly you wouldn’t understand.”

“Oh,” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, I could have interacted with myself at some point.”

“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own lifespan you don’t even know it’s happening.”

“So what’s the point of it all?”

“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”

“Well it’s a reasonable question,” you persisted.

I looked you in the eye. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”

“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”

“No, just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature and become a larger and greater intellect.”

“Just me? What about everyone else?”

“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you and me.”

You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”

“All you. Different incarnations of you.”

“Wait. I’m everyone!?”

“Now you’re getting it,” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.

“I’m every human being who ever lived?”

“Or who will ever live, yes.”

“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”

“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too,” I added.

“I’m Hitler?” You said, appalled.

“And you’re the millions he killed.”

“I’m Jesus?”

“And you’re everyone who followed him.”

You fell silent.

“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “you were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”

You thought for a long time.

“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”

“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”

“Whoa,” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”

“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”

“So the whole universe,” you said, “it’s just…”

“An egg.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.”

And I sent you on your way.

reply to post by Darkphoenix77




For those who can just watch the video.

reply to post by Advantage

Please dont lump all belief systems of "aboriginals" together as if all are the same. Its incorrect. Im Blackfeet.. as in my parents were born on rez. My folks do NOT believe in reincarnation and that the life of the dead was as real as the life of the living. They live it much the way we do in this world. It gets really tedious on ATS when "indians" are all lumped together.

Thank you so much for bringing this to the discussion!!

Would you, please, share with us the historical and spiritual traditions that you learned as a kid?

reply to post by wildtimes

you see, log7, in my view, the TRUTH is true for EVERYONE.

thats exactly what i think, but that is also the problem. Two opposite ideas cant be true, so its either reincarnation or one life+heaven/hell and we logically have just one lifetime to figure it out!
Also i like your idea of common denominator. I do see that in almost all beliefs i know.
And in earlier post you said that few decades are insufficient to learn and experience enough. I thought about it and also what klassified posted about collective conciousness and what if its all integrated? Say after joining the source you have access to the ultimate source of knowledge also to collective experiences of whole humanity.
My question, from where new souls come? Also who decides that a soul isnt ready to meet the source? the Source.right?
These points to conclusion that the Source is actively involved.
And then the smiting, angry cruel God of Abrahamic faiths becomes Merciful. If reincarnation is true and purpose of life is to learn and if some soul is either hurting itself or others or its death will teach a lesson to others then killing it is actually good for everyone.

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7

 

I think you should see younger souls as ignorant (not a pejorative idea), not bad or anything. I'm far from understanding Gods definitions and these are my beliefs. Passing through life cycles the soul will gather experiences according to its life, maybe good or bad experiences can happen and these are defined by its choices.

the problem is that i have never seen an ignorant baby but have known ignorant adults(spiritually speaking)
adding both these i get that people accuire spiritual ignorance as they grow up.
Thats not learning for the better. Its forgetting for the worse.
Its the world that corrupts and mess up a soul.
How is it wise to wash oneself in a dirty river and believe that maybe washing up many times will ultimately get someone clean?
The only lesson that is to be learned is that the river is dirty so be careful where you take the dips.

reply to post by wildtimes

A person who believes in hell CAN commit a crime; if he believes in reincarnation, rather, he will know that what he does to others will be revisited UPON HIMSELF. In the same degree (or 7-fold; or 3-fold; or whatever - it's all "Karma"; you reap what you sow.

you mean another chance after a karmic punishment is more scary than burning in hell forever?
If "stop or i'l shoot you in your head" doesnt stop a man then will "stop or i'l taser you" do the trick?
Well ya for non-sociopaths it would be just more diluted and collectively more damaging.
Ok killing is for sociopaths but what about lying, cheating etc, what will be the karmic justice and can i take that for this recent pleasure or avoiding the pain at hand?ya sure i have many lives to become better!!
Reincarnation appeals to people for different reasons, do you realise that you maybe the minority who believes in reincarnation yet not chose it to just enjoy the world and bank upon second chances.
I am skeptical of any belief which gives people what they desire too easily.
You do agree that christian belief of Jesus pbuh paying for the sins and a straight ticket to heaven is questionable. Thats what i call no pain all gain and that really clicks with many. Dont want to offend anyone but not all christians are as knowledgeable as here on ATS and they just want a quick fix. It would be off topic beyond this, so back to topic.
Reincarnation is a better theory, say pain and gain. Its balanced karmically. But it does put importance on living as much as required in other words avoiding death but as death is unavoidable, so making up idea of rebirths.
This idea resonates with people who want to live forever or afraid that either death is the end or worst "hell" or just afraid of the unknown.
Ofcourse you think philosophically and like the idea because its balanced and many other on ATS would have this reason too.
My point is dont you think reincarnation indulges the desire of a person to keep living?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Tell me... what is your take on John 3?

More specifically the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus...

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. His lecture to Nicodemus is pretty much a restating of what he's doing there -- a summary of the rest of the New Testament, in a way.

If you mean that he's talking about reincarnation there, I don't see it, sorry.

Lets just say im playing on what you know of Gnostic scripture...



Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A person who believes in hell CAN commit a crime; if he believes in reincarnation, rather, he will know that what he does to others will be revisited UPON HIMSELF. In the same degree (or 7-fold; or 3-fold; or whatever - it's all "Karma"; you reap what you sow.

you mean another chance after a karmic punishment is more scary than burning in hell forever?
If "stop or i'l shoot you in your head" doesnt stop a man then will "stop or i'l taser you" do the trick?
Well ya for non-sociopaths it would be just more diluted and collectively more damaging.
Ok killing is for sociopaths but what about lying, cheating etc, what will be the karmic justice and can i take that for this recent pleasure or avoiding the pain at hand?ya sure i have many lives to become better!!
Reincarnation appeals to people for different reasons, do you realise that you maybe the minority who believes in reincarnation yet not chose it to just enjoy the world and bank upon second chances.
I am skeptical of any belief which gives people what they desire too easily.
You do agree that christian belief of Jesus pbuh paying for the sins and a straight ticket to heaven is questionable. Thats what i call no pain all gain and that really clicks with many. Dont want to offend anyone but not all christians are as knowledgeable as here on ATS and they just want a quick fix. It would be off topic beyond this, so back to topic.
Reincarnation is a better theory, say pain and gain. Its balanced karmically. But it does put importance on living as much as required in other words avoiding death but as death is unavoidable, so making up idea of rebirths.
This idea resonates with people who want to live forever or afraid that either death is the end or worst "hell" or just afraid of the unknown.
Ofcourse you think philosophically and like the idea because its balanced and many other on ATS would have this reason too.
My point is dont you think reincarnation indulges the desire of a person to keep living?

In direct response to the last question, you pose (and apologies for butting in *bows*)...

The mechanism of reincarnation is a set 'piece'...whether a person 'indulges' in it, or disbelieves it, is irrelevant...

From a christian perspective, the utterly flawed notion of one lifetime and one lifetime alone...a single decrepit life offered by a loving, omnipotent, omniscient, mega-supa-intelligence called the father, makes no sense...

Reincarnation installs the ability to progress, regarless of circumstance...because, You see, if you're a one-legged, 4 year old, orphaned, uneducated, starving child in the middle of some waaay out country somewhere, and you've never heard of jesus...you are going to HELL...sound fair to you? Sound like the actions of a loving god?

I believe the more moderate believers of most religions retain a watered-down version of the mechanism, and interpret it in thier own way...suffice to say that...the teachings of the prophets, relate the steps necessary to move in the directions needed to cast aside the coil...even if the general followers don't understand what the steps mean...the mechanism rolls on and the question of life and death and what it all means keeps coming up, in all centuries...

A99

reply to post by Klassified

What I see is active personal responsibility for growth in their lives, and a desire for peace in the world that they actively participate in bringing about. I don't see any of that among the the big three. What I see is strife, division, hatred, inequality, and death.

i see the former in the big three too and later in people who believe in reincarnation. If 800 million hindus followed what the philosophies taught, wouldnt india be an example to prove how good belief in reincarnation is?
India is known for recent genocide of muslims, one of the most corrupted countries, female foeticide, dowry deaths, no sense of personal responsibility and a declining moral sense. Fruits of reincarnation theory or no blame on it?

reply to post by Taunos

Exactly, souls do not immediately reborn (in some extreme cases they do, but that is some other conversation and more into religion beliefs). As I pointed is a complex issue and require extreme preparation, to guarantee evolution and not regression. At the spiritual world, after death the soul need time to adapt and recover. The mortal life can be very consuming and depending how you lived this process can be fast or slow. Believe it or not there are hospitals there too, but not the way we have here (again a conversation for another time).

how you know all this?

I mentioned in an earlier post that souls go to a place called purgatory between lives. I really didn't know about purgatory until this member posted his "dream" on my thread, and I interpreted it for him. I believe his spirit guide took him on a soul journey in this "dream". He didn't know about purgatory either!
This totally fascinated both of us. Validation? I don't know.
Here is his dream. My interpretation will follow on the next post.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I was standing on a dirt path and there were walls all around. The place felt very much like a labyrinth. There was no roof, just an evening sky when transitioning between daylight and nightfall. The temperature was mild, not cold and not hot. Just very neutral. The walls and structures were a brownish off white, as though they were covered with dirt that floats in the air that then settles on the structures. Everything was a mix between being brand new and in ruins, it all just seemed some what "worn in" and most of the walls were linked together by archways that led to different areas. I again had my escort with me, it was similar to the one in the heaven dream as it had no sexual orientation. It gave me a small green orb which I then carried with me as I walked around. We went down the path a little bit, passing by various paths some of which had broken archways over them. Down the path, not too far from where we started, there was an opening in the wall to my left under an archway that a longer path than any other I had seen previously extended from. There was fountain at the end of the path which was what convinced to me to that way down that path. Now, laying everywhere on the ground, excluding the original path, there were people propped up against each other and leaning on the walls. It was clear as to how old everyone was and their sex. However, everyone was pure white, including their clothes. They possessed no color what so ever. We walked up to the fountain, which was not operational and contained no water, and then looked around the area at all of the people. There was a man sitting on the ground leaning on the fountain. My escort told me to give him the orb to know who he is. So upon this instruction I bent down and held the orb in front of the man not really having idea of what to do. The orb then floated into the man's chest and I had vision that consisted of that man's life and why he was there. When the vision ended the orb left his chest and came back into my hand. I thought, "Wow that was awesome, let's do some more!" My escorted laughed and held up its hand as though to convey for me to continue. I looked around and surveyed the area. All around the fountain were rooms missing the walls facing the pathway and fountain, all of them had a roof. In all these rooms, were multiples of people just laying around. Off to the right of the fountain in a large, dark room I felt a very strong presence so I went to investigate. There was a.... grim reaper type of entity standing in the corner holding a sword and shield(just a side note, there were several of these "grim reapers" randomly spaced out all over the place that seemed to just be keeping watch). My escort told me to not be concerned with them as they were "on duty", given my military training I understand this fully and know not to disturb them. In this room, as with all the others, the ground is covered in hay(not sure if this is meaningful). There was a certain man leaning against the wall that I was interested in so I walked over and placed the orb in his chest. He was a bad man. A murderer and thief of all sorts. I was not pleased with him and was glad he was stuck there. I left the room in disgust and walked to the area behind the fountain. There was a woman on the ground that I felt pity for, but was not sure why. After placing the orb in her chest I saw that she was married to an "unlovable" man. He was simply, just not a good husband. She left him and ran off with her lover in the middle of the night to escape her life and start a new. They both died on a boat before they reached where ever they were trying to escape to. I felt very sad for her and wanted to help so I took her by the hand and she became animated. She was instantly crying and thanking me at the same time for helping her. We took about three steps in looking for the way out of there before we were rushed by two guards who then took her back to her resting place. My guide try to tell me that we were not there to help these people as they have already made their choices. I was very sad that I could not help this woman as I feel it was well with in her rights to do what she did. My escort then put its arm around me as we walked and said that this was all for now and that now we should leave. I then awoke..... still sad for the woman.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
My Dream Analysis for Timical on the post above:

The dirt path is representative of situations where people have been less than honorable and may have acted in a devious manner. The walls having no roofs symbolizes there is no barrier between the consciousness, mentality, and beliefs of the people here.
The sky transitioning between daylight and night fall indicates this place is like a “twilight zone” where souls go to contemplate on choices they made during their lifetime. The labyrinth indicates their desire to get to the center of their problem during contemplation. It also means they many feel lost with no way out.

The souls in this place are confronted by limitations, obstacles, and boundaries obstructing their progress (dirty walls). The dirty walls and structures in this place are symbolic of the “dirty souls” who have contaminated it.
Although the walls signify limitations, obstacles, and boundaries, they are connected together by archways which represent new areas of opportunity. If the soul realizes its errors during contemplation, they may possibly be able to move into one of the other rooms leading to the fountain (which represents Jesus). Each room seems to represent different levels of sin. Archways also represent our support system, which is God and his angels.

Your guide handed you a green orb. Orbs symbolize truth, and a sudden understanding or realization. The color of green corresponds with the heart chakra. The heart governs passion, love, and healing.
You held the orb in front of a man and it entered the man’s chest (looked into his heart), and gave you the realization of his life and why he was there.

The broken archways you saw when you started walking down the path symbolize the support system (God and angels) have broken away in these areas.

You came upon a wall that had an opening. This symbolizes an escape from the boundaries, limitations, and obstacles that leads down this long path. The path had a water fountain at the end, but had no water. Jesus is called “the fountain of the living waters”, or “the fountain of life”. This fountain represents Jesus, but had nothing to offer the people here to “quench their thirst for knowledge”. They had to help themselves through deep contemplation of their life.

You noticed people sitting on the ground, and leaning on the walls. They were pure white. This seems to indicate souls who recognized the error of their ways during contemplation in the other rooms. They purified their souls from sin, indicated by the color of white. Now they wait for rebirth into another body, or ascension to a higher dimension. This could be called the "judgement".

The rooms around the fountain had no walls (barriers) to the fountain, but they had a roof, which is a barrier sheltering their consciousness and beliefs. The people here will have to break through their current belief system before they can free themselves of sin.

One of the rooms was dark with what you called “grim reaper” type beings standing guard, although they weren’t actually grim reapers. Their sword and shield represent strength and authority and physical protection from the bad souls escaping.
The hay on the ground represents the necessity of hard work to get their souls cleansed. This room is occupied with souls who have sinned on a much darker scale. You left this room in disgust, and entered another room behind the fountain.

You took pity on a woman in this room and tried to help her, but your guide told you that you couldn’t because she had already made her choice (during her life on earth). She must realize her mistakes through soul-contemplation on her own so she can grow in spiritual wisdom, without anyone’s help.

Your guide then tells you it is time to go. He sends your spirit back to your body and you wake up.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Source: www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

I believe we each come to learn different lessons. I don't know if this information would apply to all the human race, or just Timical, due to something he needed to learn. He is of the Christian faith, so a lot of this "dream" dealt with Christian views.
I believe we are each drawn to the faith/religion/belief system that helps us obtain the knowledge we came to learn on our path in each lifetime.

reply to post by logical7


Hi logical7. Just trying to approach your other reply also, the idea of a ignorant soul is related to a clean state. In my beliefs (according to spiritism) all souls in this world already had some past lives, there are different worlds with different levels of evolution. Considering this you will eventually meet people with different levels regarding their moral progress.

Now approaching the quoted text. All my information comes from books and some years of study, as I said in some other post, the only dogma in the Spiritism doctrine is the reincarnation, so you can understand why it is such a major issue. Most of the books, like the Gopel According to Spiritism, The Spirits Book and some others try to explain how life goes on after this life, and how these life cycles help us to evolve and grow towards something good.

All I'm saying here is just a really small part of what is written, the idea is far more complex and important. You can start thinking about premature deaths, suicides and a lot of other variables and I can say that every and each one of them are explained and detailed. The books are not restricted to the reincarnation, since it is only a part of the evolution process.

reply to post by sled735


I'm glad I could bring something interesting to this discussion. I hope it gives you some new ideas and possibilities