Man Shown A Once Atheist Author Now In Hades

reply to post by EfficientP


There are no demons torturing anyone in hell. The devil doesn't and won't torture anyone. The devil and the rest of the fallen will have their part in the lake of fire too. They have no power except that which God gives them. This story is just that and nothing in the Holy Bible supports it.

reply to post by soaringhawk

The devil and the rest of the fallen will have their part in the lake of fire too.

Cool! Lake of fire!

When I was a little kid, I had a fascination with fire and volcanoes. I would just stare at the fire burning in our fireplace and wish that I could be one with the fire. I was around 8, when I told my parents I wanted to be cremated. They were shocked that I had planned for and made this request, and asked me "Why?" I told them that I wanted to be cremated because then I could finally feel the power of fire without getting burned.

As a adult I moved to Hawaii and visited the Kīlauea while the lava was flowing. I watched the eruption of Mauna Loa from atop Mount Halaeakala and it was breathtaking. I had a dream that I was on the crater rim, watching the "lake of fire" when Pele, who felt my love for her, reached up and grabbed me in a big hot hug!

When I die, and my spirit is freed, one the first places I want to go to is the sun. I want my soul to be so pure that I can walk on the sun. Kinda like Jesus was said to have walked on water, I will walk on the lake of fire, one day!



"That lucky 'ole sun, with nothing to do, but roll around heaven all day!"

reply to post by windword


Next time you do a random Google search I'd suggest reading the entire article before a hasty copy/paste.

From khouse, which is short for Koinonia House. Which is Dr. Chuck Missler's webpage:

However, it seems that Irenaeus in 150 A.D., and also Hypolytus in the 2 nd century, each quote from these disputed verses, so the documentary evidence is that they were deleted later in the Alexandrian texts, not added subsequently.)

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, I am aware of that. It doesn't contradict what I said, that the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman was an addition that wasn't in the older texts.

Even your idol Chuck Missler agrees. Everything else is conjecture and apology.

There are numerous cases of words being placed into the mouth of Jesus. The story of Nicodemus is another one.

reply to post by windword


The "older texts" is a misnomer. The Alexandrian texts (Gnostic) are the oldest surviving COMPLETE manuscripts, however there are individual letters and epistles much older than them which align with the Byzantine text, not the Alexandrian. The 3 Alexandrian texts were created between the 3rd and 4th century AD.

Originally posted by galactix
"What God wants is for you to submit to his will and stop rebelling to try to live apart from Him"

how does your God tell you His will?
what does rebelling look like?
why do we 'rebel', anyway?

do you really believe that humans are actually *ever* 'apart' from God? how can this be?


-truly curious.

He's not just my God, He's the God of all, whether you know Him or not.

God is truth.
God is love.
God's ways are always what is right, perfect, and loving.

God's ways are love.
To be in a state of rebellion (unlawfulness) is to reject God's ways, God's truth, and try to live in opposition to that.
Either you are trying to live according to what is right in your own mind, or you are living according to what demons and the world tell you is right. Usually it's a combination of all those influencing someone.

The good news is that you can change your nature, by undergoing a spiritual rebirth, so that your very nature changes to become more like God's - Selfless love for others, peace in any circumstance, and joy abounding. It's not by your own effort, but merely by choosing to surrender to God's spirit, letting him remove the damaged parts of you and restore you to the way He intended and created you to be.

The root of this opposition to God's way is either going to come down to unmerited fear of God's ways (a lack of confidence in God's word as truth, so they cling to their own idea of what is truth), or a lack of love for God's ways (usually due to loving oneself more than loving others, or a love for something evil in this world that is greater than a love for what is righteous and good).

A lot of this fear and opposition erases when one actually feels the love of God manifest, because a love for what is countrary to God's ways is rooted in an ignorance of what the right way is like, or a wrong belief that God's ways cannot provide all the fulfillment and pleasure they desire (not realizing they are settling for cheap hollow imitations of pleasure and peace compared to what God has in mind for them)
It's not something that you arrive at intellectually usually - It's something you experience and decide you want more of. If you truly seek it, He promises you that you will find it.


God makes His will known to us by communicating it to us through His Holy Spirit.
This He did with the prophets of the bible, and His disciples, who recorded what they were told to say and teach in their writings.
God still speaks to people through His Holy Spirit, but this must be tested to be assured that it is of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That text only addresses the last 12 verses of Mark. The text is still questionable and was written at least 150 after the death of Jesus. It doesn't convince the majority of scholars. Most do not agree that Jesus told his followers to handle snakes. It's very irresponsible to push that bullocks as the words of Jesus!

You have yet to address the story of the adulterous woman, that was added much later, and wasn't commented on until 1200 years later. Even then, the comments were questioning the authenticity and placement of the text.

Additionally, the story of Nicodemus couldn't have happened as told. Scholars are in agreement of this too. It has to do with the double entendre of the words "born again" in Greek. They don't translate back to Aramaic, which is what Jesus spoke So the confused Nicodemus is a fallacy. It couldn't have happen as written.

reply to post by windword


Your information is quite antiquated, about a decade old minimum. I suggest looking at the latest work of one Dr. Carston Thiedie. And think about this for a quick second.. if you went to an antique store which items would be in the best condition after a century or two, an item that was rarely used during it's time or one that was used daily?

Answer that Q and you'll understand why "oldest = best" is a fallacy.

reply to post by Murgatroid

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Another interesting NDE is that of George Rodonaia.

Three days in a morgue freezer = FORMER atheist...

One hour of reading the many contradictions of the bible = EX christian....

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The fact is, many words have been placed in the mouth of Jesus well after his death, that are either questionable or could not have been said at all. Scholars agree on this. You can't take the Bible as fact. At best it's value lies in the inspiration of the stories, not in the historical truth of them.

You statement that "His (Jesus') statements pass the basic standards historians use for authentication." is not true.

reply to post by windword


You're referring to textual critics who have financial gain at stake, not historians. Why don't you go back to that khouse article and really scrutinize the part about the heptadic structure of the text of the Byzantine manuscript, specifically the discoveries of one Dr. Ivan Panin.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You're referring to textual critics who have financial gain at stake, not historians.

And your historians usually have emotional security at stake, not to mention the political clout of the people who control their published work.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I don't have historians for one thing, and for two you can't sell books without creating controversy now can you?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Ho-Hum, another fictional account of "Hell." It is not verifiable by the Bible or any other means. Yes, the wicked will make an account for their sins and wickedness, but God's own Law forbids an eternal punishment for temporal crimes, or have you not read the Law of Jubilee?

Heaven, yes!

Hell, no!!

edit on 27-12-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

Christ spoke numerous times of eternal torment. Somehow you're more knowledgeable on these matters than Him?

Strange that He should do so, as the disciple that He loved never mentioned "Hell" in his Gospel, and Jesus' chief apostle, Paul, never mentioned "Hell." Are you sure you are not relying on a bad translation? Eternal torment violates the very principles God laid down in the Law of the Jubilee, which specifies that debt and slavery only last for fifty years, max - then the people go free.

Here's Matthew 25:46 from Ferrar Fenton's The Holy Bible in Modern English: "...And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life." There is a HUGE difference between "long correction" and "eternal torment."

I propose four pillars of "Hell":

1. Baggage carried over from pagan sources, such as the Scandinavian "Hel," the Greek "Hades," and the Latin "Inferno."

2. The doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul.

3. Bad Bible translations, biased by already-held beliefs.

4. Fictional accounts by people such as Dante and Milton - and a host of other non-verifiable sources, such as the account which is the subject of this thread.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Well hell would be a latinized term, the Greek term used was Hades.

Strange that He should do so, as the disciple that He loved never mentioned "Hell" in his Gospel, and Jesus' chief apostle, Paul, never mentioned "Hell."

John 15
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.


The Book of revelation was written by John

Revelation 20:
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



Paul mentions quite often that eternal life comes through Christ, and that to not be in Christ is the way of death.

Galatians 6:
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


Romans 8
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Here's Matthew 25:46 from Ferrar Fenton's The Holy Bible in Modern English: "...And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life." There is a HUGE difference between "long correction" and "eternal torment."

There is very obvious reason for this HUGE difference...

Rupert Murdock owns all the Bible copyrights today.

END of story...

The NKJV removes the word "heaven" 50 times!
The NIV removes the word "hell" ALL 31 times it appears in the OT!
The NKJV removes the word "Lord" 66 times!
The NKJV removes the word God 51 times!

Jesus spoke more on Hell than on ANY other subject.

Rupert Murdock's LIES will NOT matter when you meet God.

Originally posted by Rise27

Originally posted by galactix
"What God wants is for you to submit to his will and stop rebelling to try to live apart from Him"

how does your God tell you His will?
what does rebelling look like?
why do we 'rebel', anyway?

do you really believe that humans are actually *ever* 'apart' from God? how can this be?


-truly curious.

He's not just my God, He's the God of all, whether you know Him or not.

God is truth.
God is love.
God's ways are always what is right, perfect, and loving.

God's ways are love.
To be in a state of rebellion (unlawfulness) is to reject God's ways, God's truth, and try to live in opposition to that.
Either you are trying to live according to what is right in your own mind, or you are living according to what demons and the world tell you is right. Usually it's a combination of all those influencing someone.

The good news is that you can change your nature, by undergoing a spiritual rebirth, so that your very nature changes to become more like God's - Selfless love for others, peace in any circumstance, and joy abounding. It's not by your own effort, but merely by choosing to surrender to God's spirit, letting him remove the damaged parts of you and restore you to the way He intended and created you to be.

The root of this opposition to God's way is either going to come down to unmerited fear of God's ways (a lack of confidence in God's word as truth, so they cling to their own idea of what is truth), or a lack of love for God's ways (usually due to loving oneself more than loving others, or a love for something evil in this world that is greater than a love for what is righteous and good).

A lot of this fear and opposition erases when one actually feels the love of God manifest, because a love for what is countrary to God's ways is rooted in an ignorance of what the right way is like, or a wrong belief that God's ways cannot provide all the fulfillment and pleasure they desire (not realizing they are settling for cheap hollow imitations of pleasure and peace compared to what God has in mind for them)
It's not something that you arrive at intellectually usually - It's something you experience and decide you want more of. If you truly seek it, He promises you that you will find it.


God makes His will known to us by communicating it to us through His Holy Spirit.
This He did with the prophets of the bible, and His disciples, who recorded what they were told to say and teach in their writings.
God still speaks to people through His Holy Spirit, but this must be tested to be assured that it is of the Holy Spirit.

edit on 28-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

thanks for sharing, 27.
and well said. i appreciate coherent dialog.

as it happens i do not disagree with much that you say here and further i do believe in a God of my own (and like yours, She is also the God (made up)of all: just sayin'), but i'd like to point out a coupla things that might be worth considering even further.

first, there is a contradiction between these two statements:

"Either you are trying to live according to what is right in your own mind..."
and
"God makes His will known to us by communicating it to us through His Holy Spirit.
This He did with the prophets of the bible, and His disciples, who recorded what they were told to say and teach in their writings."

the one says : "trust what you feel is right" and the other, "trust what was written down in the past by other humans"
how does one tell the difference between "according to what demons and the world tell you is right" and " who recorded what they were told to say" which is then transferred to you via "the world".

pretty tricky game, if you ask me.

i think i'll stick to what my feelings tell me.

....

and then if,

"God is truth.
God is love.
God's ways are always what is right, perfect, and loving."

how do you account for hell and suffering? not a lot of "love" there. you could call it tuff love but then it all would be love and then love would be nothing.

these above definitions are so ... useless. i mean, really. nobody agrees on what "right", "truth", and "love" even are. To define your divinity in terms of words that are little understood or even less agreed upon is without any practical value.

your own scripture tells you that we are "made in God's image" and the Alchemists say "as below, so above". This is a very strong clue that God is more (and prolly less) than love, truth, and right. Much more complex. much more concrete.

i submit to you that all creatures are of God whether they know it, want it, or believe it, and that the only difference is that some acknowledge (or a struck by a bolt from God, which still happens by the way) and *choose* to travel that path, while others shy from fear or discomfort and hunger. Those that shy become ill, both in body and in mind.

all of God, nonetheless

reply to post by Murgatroid

Jesus spoke more on Hell than on ANY other subject.

Yeah, if "hell" is called the "kingdom of God."

Sheesh, how you Christians love your hell ideas! What a shame that you have completely missed the simple and profound message of love, in favor of hate, wrath and punishment.

Originally posted by galactix
the one says : "trust what you feel is right" and the other, "trust what was written down in the past by other humans"
how does one tell the difference between "according to what demons and the world tell you is right" and " who recorded what they were told to say" which is then transferred to you via "the world".

pretty tricky game, if you ask me.

i think i'll stick to what my feelings tell me.

It can be a very tricky game if you still have large parts of you that are self centered or enslaved to rebellious mindsets and desires.
That is precisely why it's dangerous to only go by what you feel or think is right, both your feelings and your mind can be used to deceive you (either by rebellious spirits, or your own rebellious soul) if they aren't wholly subject to the Holy Spirit of God.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

When Jesus said "love your enemies", this is not something that seemed right to most people. But their perception of right and wrong was based in spiritual ignorance. If they saw things from God's perspective, knew what He knew, felt the way God did towards everyone, instead of being guided by other influences, then they would understand why it's necessary to love your enemies, forgive those who have hurt you, and bless those who curse you.



How do you tell if someone is led by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruits.
Someone who is led by the Holy Spirit, living by the Holy Spirit, will manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit in their life.

When you find those people, ask them about the source of their love, peace, and joy.
God will back up these people led by His Spirit with signs and wonders too, as a testimony to His truth.

If you want to know the truth, you can ask Jesus to reveal it to you. He promises that if you ask and seek that you will find, if you are sincere in knowing the truth.



Here Jesus tells us about knowing them by their fruit:

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.


Paul expands on this for us:

Galatians 5

13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.