Justification for Taking Hostages?

To all decent muslims out there. Most of us know that most of the followers of Islam just want to get on with life like most of us, and that these killers and fanatics are aberrations.

I personnally have nothing against any muslim....I take them like I take all people.... as they come and on thier merits. Ive met more I like than a lot of so called "christians" and "humanitarians"

Others here come across as politically insane raving loonies with what they spout be it pro or anti coalition. I will still try talking to you but your comments leave me in no doubt I can have no respect for you. You know who you are.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
vincere7,

I'll make this short. OSAMA BIN LADEN DID NOT ATTACK OUR COUNTRY FOR ALLAH, HE USES ALLAH AS JUSTIFICATION, BUT IT WAS NOT THE PRIMARY REASON FOR ATTACK.

America, being the "fighters of truth and liberty" should not been in Iraq in the first place, these "hostage takings" would not have occured in that case...

Deep

So now it's 'our' country. Your trying to distance yourself from your earlier statements but it's too late for that now. So now you are going to preach about Osama's mind. You are going to tell us his thoughts. Please feel free to give us your fantasy of Osama's thoughts...

We were not in Iraq in the FIRST place. We are there because our nation was attacked and we are on the offensive.

quote: I personnally have nothing against any muslim....I take them like I take all people.... as they come and on thier merits. Ive met more I like than a lot of so called "christians" and "humanitarians"

I do have something personal. I don't want my McDonalds exploding or airplanes smashing into my work place and I have muslim friends and have studied the Quran.. hows that for education deep.

The spin goes on. This discussion between two people went from the teachings of Islam to "all muslims are labeled as killers," for the sake of an individual (deep) who claims NOT to be muslim but supports his/her own ideology of what Islam is and what Islam teaches and that persons (deep)justification of the attacks on our soil.

The U.S. was attacked and now we are attacking. Whether you are a peace loving muslim or a fanatic you still must believe what the Quran teaches IF you are a muslim. If you don't agree with the teachings then you are not really a muslim.












[edit on 24-10-2004 by vincere7]

So now it's 'our' country. Your trying to distance yourself from your earlier statements but it's too late for that now. So now you are going to preach about Osama's mind. You are going to tell us his thoughts. Please feel free to give us your fantasy of Osama's thoughts...

We were not in Iraq in the FIRST place. We are there because our nation was attacked and we are on the offensive.

I live in NORTH AMERICA ! Your nation was not attacked by Iraq. This is old news, come one, get with the times !

Deep

The spin goes on. This discussion between two people went from the teachings of Islam to "all muslims are labeled as killers," for the sake of an individual (deep) who claims NOT to be muslim but supports his/her own ideology of what Islam is and what Islam teaches and that persons (deep)justification of the attacks on our soil.

The U.S. was attacked and now we are attacking. Whether you are a peace loving muslim or a fanatic you still must believe what the Quran teaches IF you are a muslim. If you don't agree with the teachings then you are not really a muslim.

I'm not a muslims, get that through your head. Any of the senior members who know me can vouch for that.

I do have something personal. I don't want my McDonalds exploding or airplanes smashing into my work place and I have muslim friends and have studied the Quran.. hows that for education deep.

Let's get something clear, you having Muslim freinds and having "studied" the Quran is quite the conundrum; You vemently have this faux denotion that Islam is simply out to prosecute and kill Kafirs, yet, do not bring forth valid proof of this other than the work of Osama Bin Laden. Tell me, good sir, Jewish Zionists had thier own Prime Minister killed in cold blood, and if one reads the Torah, we seem many instances of genocidal conotations, in fact, they are quite overt, as it were, should we label all Jews as evil and vile creatures on the verge of utter destruction of mankind ?

If Islamic followers were bent on killing Kafirs, as i have stated many times before, you and I, good sir, would not be here typing this very message.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I live in NORTH AMERICA ! Your nation was not attacked by Iraq. This is old news, come one, get with the times !
Deep

I never said my nation was attacked by Iraq. I said my nation was attacked by muslims and now we are at war. Your argument is that I am not allowed to say 'muslims' as that labels all of Islam as killers but that is exactly why my country was attacked because of the teachings of Islam.

Iraq is being liberated of their resources and many people are dying. I certainly will not justify my countries actions of murder in Iraq as you justified Osama. This will be an ongoing war. Those who believe the violent teachings of mohammed threw the first punch and we will win the fight.

I never said my nation was attacked by Iraq. I said my nation was attacked by muslims and now we are at war. Your argument is that I am not allowed to say 'muslims' as that labels all of Islam as killers but that is exactly why my country was attacked because of the teachings of Islam.

Your nation was attacked by OSAMA BIN LADEN, NOT EVERY GOD DAMN MUSLIM ON THIS PLANET.

I'm not going to reply to a bigot such as yourself. You're entire basis that Islam breeds violent savages is pathetic.

Deep

Originally posted by vincere7
that labels all of Islam as killers but that is exactly why my country was attacked because of the teachings of Islam

On that ideology, all Christians during the Crusades were bigoted un-principaled murderers bar none.

Misfit

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I'm not a muslims, get that through your head. Any of the senior members who know me can vouch for that.

bring forth valid proof of this other than the work of Osama Bin Laden.
If Islamic followers were bent on killing Kafirs, as i have stated many times before, you and I, good sir, would not be here typing this very message.
Deep

We have already established that you are not muslim by you saying you're not several posts ago. So ther is no need for anyone to vouch you just need to read more thoroughly.

Here is valid proof for you my non-muslim know all about muslims from North America who knows the mind of Osama.

ALL muslims who wage jihad, or martyr themselves with explosives if you want to get technical, receive a special reward - they are guaranteed to enter paradise. Thats a great incentive to kill yourself when you're having a bad day or just for fun.

Now this is not a warped understanding of Islam as some will say, or something that only some muslims believe, but is a creed that all true faith clerics believe.

I think that is enough proof for any parent who has children or individual who desires to live in peace.

Yes,

We must not forget the crusades. We do forget the Muslim conquest of Spain, the Balkans, North Africa, but that is because they gave the conquered the option of..
1. paying a special tax
2. converting to Islam
3. dying.

Yes, boy, those are some great options! The Ottoman Turks were really great with not only those they conquered, but those that were there Muslim brothers as well!

OF course the ethnic cleansing in the Sudan (incidentally, the slaughter is religious in nature. Dare I say Muslims killing Christians...Or is that unfair)

Should we recall Rwanda? More of the same, but let's not call it what it is.

Perhaps it is not the rank and file believers that are the sick, tortured individuals who target the innocent. Perhaps it is those in power who abuse that power, and do horrible things to people, and reach for whatever they can to justify their actions. But if we ARE going to call this a crusade, and refer to them in the same context, let's bring it all up. Let's bring up all of it, and not what is simply politicaly correct. It makes me sick.

So since we can sit here and point fingers all day, what is the point. Those who choose to attack Occupation forces in Iraq are certainly entitled to do so. I would do the same thing.

To take hostages is cowardly. End of story. No justification. Want to be a freedom fighter, target those who are armed.

The Spider

spidergooch,

You wholly missed my point

The Crusades I mentioned was in rebuttal to the statement [vincere7] that all of Islam are killers, because some attacked America

ergo

All of Christians were killers, becasue the Christian Crusaders were killers.

Analogy

Misfit

Originally posted by vincere7
dh it will never be unsustainable. Funny how you forget WE WERE THE ONES ATTACKED!

We did not invade Iraq PRIOR to the attacks. Nor did we go into afghanistan PRIOR to the attacks. You forget we helped the cause of Islam against the russians and by supplying billions of dollars for your economies through purchased oil. This is our reward for aiding Islam that our own citizens be brutally killed.

Did we go forth and sack your cities and nations for your oil while OPEC manipulated our dollar and economy? We dealt with it UNTIL MUSLIMS ATTACKED US ON OUR SOIL.

Surely you are kidding right? 9/11 was hardly the beginning of anything. Do you think that Bin Laden set that up for fun? And are you kidding about Afghantistan? You do realize it is OUR fault that the place was in devistation and that the Taliban took over right? We used Afghan for our own greedy purposes and then left them for dead when the cold war ended. We used some innocent country as our battle ground against Russia. We didn't give a damn about those poor people and left many of them to die.

The whole cause of 9/11 was becuase we put soldiers on holy land which to them is a major major insult to their religion. We also support Israel who kils innocent people on a daily basis (BTW this is a good example of how pre-emptive attacks do not work).

Somehow it seems that Christians and Jews can kill, but if someone of another religion does it, it is immoral. People fight with what they can. If they don't have satelite GPS guided bombs that let them kill in a more civilized way from the comfort of a 1000 miles away, the will take hostages. If they didn't have bombs, they would use butter knives if they had to.

Every religion has its violent periods, this just seems like Islams turn, but it's not unlike all the other relgions which have already had their violent periods. Also, it's an easyvehicle for those seeking power to use in a land where there is little wealth.

Look many of you are decnt minded people who understand that some of Muslims are extreme and are very literal with their interpretations. Some of you, it seems, are very Islamaphobic and personally as a Muslim that is not great but that is becasue of your ignorance. Please let me address some of the issues here:

1) Jihad is only permissible hwne there is a tyrannical regime, when you are not allowed to worship Allah or in self defence
2) Many of you quote (spidergooch) the Muslim invasion of Spain etc however, some of you are so ignorant that you do not even know of the full conditiosn for I have read the generals books and I know what I am saying. They did not want to give in; if they did then nothing wouldhave happened -however, becasue they took to the sword thus there were 3 options open to them:
a) Refuse to fight
b) Giev a tax to the Muslims who will protect them and help them
c) Become Muslims

Some of you are ranting on about how violent Islam is hwen you know nothing about it. The reason Muslims were in Spain becasue Muslims there were being persectued.

bin Laden cannot justly declare a war becasue it isnt self defence, neither is there a tyrannical regime and neither is Islam being forbidden. Also, a special place in Paradise is only preserved when those conditions for Jihad are met. When Jihad is said people think holy war - absolutley wrong. It is a struggle against the Shaytaan (devil). Read this site before you say anything else: alislam.org... and read the section on Jihad

Please reead all of tha carefully before you make any judgements. Also, congrast to Zero Deeo who actually understands something; you could learn form that vincere7

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Life Is 4 Livin]

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Life Is 4 Livin]

Originally posted by snoopy

Surely you are kidding right? 9/11 was hardly the beginning of anything. Do you think that Bin Laden set that up for fun? And are you kidding about Afghantistan? You do realize it is OUR fault that the place was in devistation and that the Taliban took over right?

We were not discussing the history leading up to 911 as that is another topic. And we are certainly not discussing that all muslims are killers as misfit has labeled.

We are discussing that since the U.S. has been attacked we are on the offensive and will continue to be and although the war is not stated to be against muslims it is in fact what t4e war is about stopping jihad and all factions who shall perform jihad. Which is why we are in Iraq strategically for oil and an AO where we can fight those who wish to wage jihad.

There is an old saying, "Send the dog in to the field and see how many birds you can stir up." Well I don't like it and the people of Iraq certainly don't like it but there you have it.

Originally posted by vincere7
And we are certainly not discussing that all muslims are killers as misfit has labeled.

Whoa there bud - you need to read back thru your own posts. You led off with that context, I quoted you:

Originally posted by vincere7
that labels all of Islam as killers but that is exactly why my country was attacked because of the teachings of Islam

Misfit

RETRACTION

First - I am NOT making that statement, I do not believe all of ANY sect/culture/religion/whatever are killers because some are.

Second - I went back over the thread and see where it went, and where I did in fact misunderstand your [vincere7] context.

My due apologies to you.

Misfit

[Edit = retraction

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Misfit]

People on earth beleive so many thing that are on the news, the media and all....you have to make your own perception of things

Religions are just something that were put to create wars and chaos because religion is nothing...it's a beleif that no one can confirm until death
Why fight because of a religion, that's insane...

Americans think all muslims are "terrorists" and muslims think all americans hates them..so that hate feeling is intense

Just take everybody as an individual and beleive that everybody on this earth is an human being just like you

Stop watching the news for a while that is the worst propaganda!!!

BTW....imagine there is no religion, no countries...

what would happen then?

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one. I hope someday u join us and the world will live as ONE

All Murdering Terrorist F***ers are All Murdering Terrorist F***ers.....that is the ONLY generalisation that ANYONE should be making.

My mum was old Church of England, my dad Roman Catholic...both non practicing as a rule. I was baptised (or whatever you call it) CofE. I thought seeing dad was RC I must be RC......So I did two years of elective RC scripture classes in junior primary. When I told my dad he roared with laughter. God, he decided, had a sense of humor.

I by nature, became an agnostic (an aethist who hedges his bets by my own definition)

I see my self as christian by beleif, but not devout. I worked all my life in an insurance office, but it doesnt make me a capitalist. There are elements of both that go into my make up, but I'm not about going off on damn Crusades. I just want to get on with life

And I think the majority of westerners and so called christians see it pretty much the same. If we are motivated to fight we will, but please don't say it's because the bible tells me so.

So why is it when Muslims say they don't beleive in what terrorist arseholes like AQ and JI are doing, some other arsehole comes out and calls them a fraud or a liar?

Maybe its because the AH saying so is as fundamentalist and extremist as the AH in AQ swing the machet? Or just plain stupid.

Get it through your head. Most people of any supposed relgious sub group can be as devout or as secular as the next guy and not buy into this holy war crap, even if the biggest jerks on both sides of the pile want to paint it like that.

Maybe there are slightly more fanatic muslims out there than christians. Having the # bombed out of you on and off for the last twenty-thirty or more years can do that, even if a fanatic minority of your leadership deserve it.

If a Muslim came up to me and said "All I want to do is be left alone to raise my family and goats in peace" I would say "Amen Brother".

Take people as they come individually. If you don't, you would think all Americans were paranoid and all left wingers opposed to war based on one or two posts on this site.

The foolishness of some of the arguments appall me.

So now because you claim to have read a book from the Muslim General who invaded Spain, I am ignorant of the History of the invasion of Spain?

You should do some more research, perhaps read from the conquered as opposed to the conquerer. Spain was a Christian nation at the time. It was populated and led from a line of Kings tracing their heritage back through the Vandals.

The Muslims landed, burned their boats, and with their Berber allies, began their conquest. That was the time the "evangelism began".

I am not pointing this out to justify anything anyone is doing. I am pointing out that Islam has a HISTORY of violence as do all other religions.

Did you really want to go into detail? India, the Near East, the Balkans, Constantinople, the kidnapping of Bulgar youths to form the Jannisary Corps. Perhaps if you read more than one point of view on the subject, we could discuss the actual history here.

I agree with Misfit. There were and are extremes on all sides. I simply cannot stand a one sided view of history. Do not tell me that by somehow giving the conquered 3 choices somehow makes the action of the agressor benign.

Conquering is conquering. The whole "they were persecuting Muslims" concept at that time period is perhaps only notated in the Jihad Generals writings. So many other writers of the time have such a totally different view. Much like, I imagine, the Iraqi people have a totally different view of the occupation than that of the occupiers.

The Spider