Justification for Taking Hostages?

saw this on Al-Jazeera.net today

The kidnapping of the director of Care International in Iraq has fuelled a debate over the legitimacy of taking hostages and killing captives

For Australian journalist John Martinkus, seizing foreign nationals is an intelligent way of "fighting a war" when you are outnumbered and outgunned. And unlike Blair, Martinkus has first hand hostage experience.

Released unharmed over the weekend, SBS Television Dateline's Martinkus said his captors freed him after establishing his independence on Iraq coverage.

"These guys [are] not stupid. They're fighting a war but they're not savages. They're not actually just killing people willy-nilly. They talk to you, they think about things," he said at Melbourne airport on Tuesday.

"There was a reason to kill [British captive Kenneth] Bigley, there was a reason to kill the Americans; there was not a reason to kill me - luckily I managed to convince them of that," he said.

SBS executive producer Mike Carey said the journalist was freed after his captors used a popular internet search engine to establish he was an independent reporter who did not support the US presence in Iraq.

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Various Iraqi groups have abducted more than 100 foreign nationals in a bid to destabilise Iraq's US-appointed interim government and force troops to leave.

And the kidnap of Care International's director is just the exception that proves a rule, says Egyptian politician Majdi Husain: 99% of those taken captive in Iraq are legitimate targets.

While the secretary-general of Egypt's Labour Party accepts Margaret Hassan and French journalists Georges Malbrunot and Christian Chesnot should be released at once - he says most other captives were collaborating with US forces and were fair game.

Husain also told Aljazeera on Sunday that the media should not describe the vast majority of foreigners detained by various Iraqi groups as hostages.

"They are not hostages but prisoners and according to Islamic law, they can be exchanged, set free or executed. All those who were killed were agents and partners of the occupation," he said.

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Husain asks why some prominent Muslim voices suggest killing those who actively support the US war effort is wrong, especially when two thirds of those taken captive were later released in exchange for political or financial gains.

"The war effort is not restricted to those who just carry weapons. The war effort includes transport and supplies. Aren't supply lines part of military activity?"

"An Iraqi interpreter working for an American soldier - isn't that part of the war effort? Undoubtedly, all those killed were not civilians."

But it is not just Muslim clerics who discuss the ethics of taking captives. Bruce Blythe, head of Crisis Management International in Atlanta, says the practice is just "another way for have-nots to level the playing field ... another tool in their arsenal".

the article goes on to mention examples of British and American war atrocities in the past...

so what do you guys think? is taking prisoners and beheading them on camera a legitimate tactic in this type of war?



[edit on 22-10-2004 by Creepy]

It can be a successful tactic, but it is NEVER a legitimate tactic of civilized people.

They are trying to justify their actions by claiming those kidnapped were prisoners of war.

Fine.

I wonder how they'd feel if we started simply beheading all of the POWs we've captured? Would it then be so justified in their eyes? I doubt it.

Perhaps for every beheading, we should behead 10 of their POWs. Then perhaps they'd get the point that such actions are NEVER justifiable. We won't though, because that would be stooping to their level, and we won't soil our souls in that way. Still, it would be interesting to see how they'd possibly be able to condemn it, after their statements.

"These guys [are] not stupid. They're fighting a war but they're not savages. They're not actually just killing people willy-nilly. They talk to you, they think about things," he said at Melbourne airport on Tuesday.

"There was a reason to kill [British captive Kenneth] Bigley, there was a reason to kill the Americans; there was not a reason to kill me - luckily I managed to convince them of that," he said.

SBS executive producer Mike Carey said the journalist was freed after his captors used a popular internet search engine to establish he was an independent reporter who did not support the US presence in Iraq.

THIS IS THE SICKEST thing I have ever heard this man should be ashamed and fired as a journalist so he cant spread these and other disgusting thoughts and tactics.

Anyone that would negotiate for his life by justifying to the killers that it was okay to take a human life cause the person came from a specific background and you didnt is nothing more than saving your own arse thru the misfortunes of another...

There is no justification for this method if I were a killer and someone did this with me I would kill him out of pure discust with his cowardess and monopolization of the facts to talk his way out of dying...

If anything these stupid terrorists do admire courage and in that they should have been more convienced of the corrupt and arse shaving self rightous indignants who cant even take their death with some sort of human descency......

GOD THIS MAKES ME SICK

any kind of violence is not right!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because of those muslims extremists, americans will think that everybody in middle-orient are savage and rude like them!!!!!!!
That is Sooooo not the case
Amelia

Originally posted by Amelia
any kind of violence is not right!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because of those muslims extremists, americans will think that everybody in middle-orient are savage and rude like them!!!!!!!
That is Sooooo not the case
Amelia

GOOD ONE yes I guess tact is not one of this countries better talents thats what freedom buys us I guess the freedom does give at times us the right to be stupid, rude, and overbearing. And what else do you expect from alot of Mac Arthur, Patton and Dirty Harry worshiping bullies.

[edit on 22/10/2004 by drbryankkruta]

[edit on 22/10/2004 by drbryankkruta]

Because of those muslims extremists, americans will think that everybody in middle-orient are savage and rude like them!!!!!!!

I have to say that it is very disappointing that the Muslims are not showing their outrage. I was impressed with the British Muslims that actually went to Iraq to try to save Bigley. I wish the U.S. Muslims would do the same type of thing. Their silence makes it appear as if on some level they do feel that it is O.K.

I know that most Muslims in the U.S. do not condone terrorism of any type but I wish that they would find a way to be more vocal and to be proactive in their attempts to put an end to terrorism.

Jemison

Pretty simple to me. It's war. We kill them, they kill us. Each side thinks the other is a monster for killing. They don't exacly have smart bombs and GPS, etc etc, what do we expect them to do? "Any means of fighting that you would consider civilized would mean we all get killed so you guys win"? Again, how do we expect them to fight? Put toether a nice big army and charge us so we only have to waste one bomb to kill em all?

If the US was invaded and our military was completely destroyed, would we not do the same thing? (taking out the factor that we thin we are right in being there, because the issue is that these people dont think we are. Them being wrong or right is not the issue). All is fair in war.

Originally posted by snoopy
Pretty simple to me. It's war. We kill them, they kill us. Each side thinks the other is a monster for killing. They don't exacly have smart bombs and GPS, etc etc, what do we expect them to do? "Any means of fighting that you would consider civilized would mean we all get killed so you guys win"? Again, how do we expect them to fight? Put toether a nice big army and charge us so we only have to waste one bomb to kill em all?

If the US was invaded and our military was completely destroyed, would we not do the same thing? (taking out the factor that we thin we are right in being there, because the issue is that these people dont think we are. Them being wrong or right is not the issue). All is fair in war.

I dont agree no war is a meet of the criteria of this philosephy of an unjust war....To me an unjust war is just another way of saying murder or geoncide and in Hitlers case got everyone in his camp charged with war crimes. Wars for domination are never just ......

I know that most Muslims in the U.S. do not condone terrorism of any type but I wish that they would find a way to be more vocal and to be proactive in their attempts to put an end to terrorism.

The muslims silence on terrorism and beheadings is deafening! Maybe a imam will say "cutting off innocent people's heads is bad for the wrong cause" but as a whole people that is over a billion strong where is the condemnation? Obviously most Muslims have a soft spot for the insurgents. And many have more then a soft spot. Many Muslims are vocal I admit but they are vocal about killing Jews and beheading care workers.

hey just a thought i dunno if this would work but what if the coalition found the C+C of the extremist/terroorist groups and took the head member/family of and held them hostage for the freeing of any coalition troops/inocents being held hostage. i know its really under hand and dirty and sick but really would giveing the terrorists a taste of thier own medicine work?

As a muslim i have being asked why i dont speak out about the beheading in iraq, the reason for this, is becouse is see it as getting what you get for going to war. You can say its not fair ect. But how many of YOU personally know the emotional feeling of living in a city that is being bombed all night? How many of YOU know whats its like to have your door broken down and yelled out to get out side and on the ground by a bunch of soldiers? How many of YOU personally know what it is like to lose a loved on, an innocent, daughter, sister, brother, from and explosion which is just on of the "off" ones, knowing that the soldiers that fired that missle are more than likely sitting around saying "damn that was alot of money we just lost". You cant say that what they are doing is unfair, you know whats unfair, being 3000 miles in the air looking out of a camera like some kind of chicken to scared to look his enemy in the eye, thats unfair. And about civilian Americans,French,British ect, Being beheaded there, You are in their country in a time when your soldier are killing them, should they really be that great full?

Put your self in this position, your country has just being invaded, you have gone through a night of bombing, you walk out side to see 3 of your neighbours and your sister (or other close realative) dead in peices in the street. You move on to see more of the your freinds and town destroyed, you go back in to your house and turn on the news, you and the rest of your family is sitting there when the door gets kicked in, 6 men with rifles scream at you to get out side and on the ground for no reason. The ridicule your accent, make you say things in their language and laugh at you, and make you look like a fool in front of every one. They then set up check points (like in isreal) and make you family sit in the rain for 10 hours to get back to your home. When you get home some one in your family is sick, you go out of town to get medicine, on your way back they dont let you in, they make you sleep in the street all night and let you in the morning (they leave you out there for no reason, they just decided the check point is closed). You get home the person is even more sick. You find out that the ocupying forces are making fun or you belifes and values, making degrading pictures of you people, and some calling it a war on your religon. Now you tell me, what are you gonna do? Make some pizza and just say it will blow over? Or are you gonna fight? (most people here will lie just so i cant make my point, but seriously think about this, i dont think one person here could describe the amount of emotion and fear that this wold cause). So seriously think about it.

Originally posted by verfed

I know that most Muslims in the U.S. do not condone terrorism of any type but I wish that they would find a way to be more vocal and to be proactive in their attempts to put an end to terrorism.

The muslims silence on terrorism and beheadings is deafening! Maybe a imam will say "cutting off innocent people's heads is bad for the wrong cause" but as a whole people that is over a billion strong where is the condemnation? Obviously most Muslims have a soft spot for the
insurgents. And many have more then a soft spot. Many Muslims are vocal I admit but they are vocal about killing Jews and beheading care workers.

This is very true and a very interesting and inspiring point of view. If you are going to be vocal in the best interest of the issues as a hole, wouldnt you deal with the evils of the actions as based in broad spectrum, It would be more justified to disavow an issue as a whole, otherwise where is the defence against complacentcy and hypocracy.. and silence is no defense at all.

Originally posted by devilwasp
hey just a thought i dunno if this would work but what if the coalition found the C+C of the extremist/terroorist groups and took the head member/family of and held them hostage for the freeing of any coalition troops/inocents being held hostage. i know its really under hand and dirty and sick but really would giveing the terrorists a taste of thier own medicine work?

Interesting, but the only in error in this thought is well 2 things.

Death for a cause is admired throug martyrism which is key to this organization due to their excessive use of suicide attacks wether they be out right bombings or taking hostages and killing them and yourself after stating your views.

Second the basic principle of this organization places the art of splintered cell command into its highest state of realization...by this I mean one regiment of say 30 men per platoon and 15 men per squad with six men and 1 leader in each tactical group could translate into at least 2-300 leaders both in primary and secondary command... and even worst all these tactical groups or splinter cells have the option to go out with out approval and contact with higher ups to take out targets of oppurtunity....

So we wouldn't do anything by taking out a few leaders but further fuel the tactics of those we are trying to stop ....you can kill a snake by chopping off its head but you cant chop the heads of a swarm of ants some will always escape

Originally posted by zi2525
Put your self in this position, your country has just being invaded, you have gone through a night of bombing, you walk out side to see 3 of your neighbours and your sister (or other close realative) dead in peices in the street.

Black, red, yellow, white, I don't care what color you are or what culture you come from if you experience this you will fight.

Also z you being muslim must know according to the prophet you must throw out the infidel. You are called to fight and I am tired of muslims not admitting that they agree with killing Americans. Show a little back bone. You want to kill us not just because we invaded you but because we do not believe in mohammed. The quran calls for our deaths and the deaths of all unbelievers or for them to be driven from the lands you dwell.

Lets get real are you a bedouin? Will you dishonor your family by making cowardly conversation of persuasion? Just say it. You want us dead there is no shame in truth. The real truth is that there cannot exist a peace. The fairy tale land of peace on earth is just that a lie. As long as Islam exists we will fight you and you will fight us and we will not live together in harmony. So lets not lie to one another. Time is short you may die tomorrow.

There are a billion of you and 600 million of us including europe. If I see things correctly many power people want to adjust those odds. How can we really trust any muslims ever? Because you say you are good and want peace? Your very youth believes and praises those who kill by suicide. Will you deny this and say, 'oh they don't believe in the true Islam they are extreme.' Your children can only follow what they are taught. Your prophet does not teach a peace for unbelievers.

As the population grows so will the escalation of war. Welcome to the new millenium - the war of attrition. You must realize that we have to take all your countries it's the only way we can win.

Originally posted by vincere7
Also z you being muslim must know according to the prophet you must throw out the infidel. You are called to fight and I am tired of muslims not admitting that they agree with killing Americans. Show a little back bone. You want to kill us not just because we invaded you but because we do not believe in mohammed. The quran calls for our deaths and the deaths of all unbelievers or for them to be driven from the lands you dwell.

Lets get real are you a bedouin? Will you dishonor your family by making cowardly conversation of persuasion? Just say it. You want us dead there is no shame in truth. The real truth is that there cannot exist a peace. The fairy tale land of peace on earth is just that a lie. As long as Islam exists we will fight you and you will fight us and we will not live together in harmony. So lets not lie to one another. Time is short you may die tomorrow.

This is so true the first sign of hypocracy is the following two things,

1 denial -the out right avoidance of the truth to avoid harsh public opinion

2 misdirection- realizing someone knows the truth and has that harsh opinion of you and you try to lay the blame off on radicals....

Give me a break dude just go with what you cant deny and if this is your faith and you claim to be righteous in the relms of your religious beleifs...you show be honest to your convictions ....because right now I would say people who deny their religion in the face of harsh world opinion are in their own right infidels to their faith thru deniability.

I dont agree with your beliefs but I would be more respectful of you for your convictions if you just outright told the truth and had a little pride in yourself ....and before everyone goes berzerk let me make it absolutely clear I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE POLICIES AND FUINDAMENTALS OF MUSLIM BELIEF but I respect the man who has pride in himself despite his misguided views or murder is good cause you dont believe what I believe, that just shows lack of freedom to choose to believe.....

There have been Iraqi protests against the kidnap of the female Care Worker in Baghdad. She has been there 30 years putting the needs of Iraqi people first. She has been recognised as being instrumental in the improvements Iraqi Hospitals capabilities since the end of the war.

Accept all you folks who like to accuse them of not really getting out in the streets to protest or fight for thier rights whatever you want to call it. In our countries the worst the most of us face is an arrest record and the adoration of our small circle of peers (if you go in for that sort of thing).

The risk walking into a fire fight or a suicide bombing -FT!

As to the SBS Journo. I would understand anybody saying whatever was necessary to get out. Comments from the rest of us either way are BS.

My problem is once out of the country he has continued to repeat them, obviously in the hopes he can safely re-enter the country to resume being something other than another opinionated journalist.....now that is BS.

SBS should sack him or make him apologies to the executed.IMPO.

I dont really care what the rest of you think on this particular view

Originally posted by craigandrew

My problem is once out of the country he has continued to repeat them, obviously in the hopes he can safely re-enter the country to resume being something other than another opinionated journalist.....now that is BS.

SBS should sack him or make him apologies to the executed.IMPO.

Good point here I didnt think of that I would think it would be stupid to think the man got a free ticket to come and go unless he made a side deal he isnt talking about like say becoming another pawn like ALJazeera maybe
you know like a propaganda machine at their disposal with indignates him all the more......If he uses this second chance at life to spread the words of the terrorists there by facilitating their future recruitment and policy growth then he is not worthy of the life he has been given....come to think of it he has already spead some propaganda on their behalf by making them look friendly..........I mean really who really sets down and talks with their captives Ill tell you who a terrorist recruiting a new allie thats who....just for that great disbelief in his motives should be justified

All I actually meant is (at best) he wants to be seen as staying "true" to his comments that got him freed by the kidnappers, lest he show up in the country again and is not so lucky.

To find he might be truly supportive of them (kidnappers..not the plight of the common Iraqi caught in the middle) would be ...."disappointing"

I also meant he should apologise to the victims families.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta

Give me a break dude just go with what you cant deny and if this is your
I dont agree with your beliefs but I would be more respectful of you for your convictions if you just outright told the truth and had a little pride in yourself ....and before everyone goes berzerk let me make it absolutely clear I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE POLICIES AND FUINDAMENTALS OF MUSLIM BELIEF but I respect the man who has pride in himself despite his misguided views or murder is good cause you dont believe what I believe, that just shows lack of freedom to choose to believe.....

I can't agree more with you babe! Why is the world so violent and so religious??? Religion is suppose to teach love and forgivness....but the most important thing is that everybody is an individual human equal to all humans!!!! No matter where you from or what religion u r into!!!! Is that so hard to understand???????????????

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I hope someday you'll join us and the world will live as ONE

amelia


Not only are they equal in stature and human design , but it seems any more the equal opportunity killers have disapeared either you are a muslim making a point or every one else trying to purify the religious mainstream sad thing is these biggitous killers of today are more widely excepted

[edit on 23/10/2004 by drbryankkruta]