Warp drive experiments to begin

Originally posted by mactheaxe
seems to me that if you got a family of self deluded, troublemaking, idiots hellbent on pushing themselves on everybody and everything and if you dont like it, well they will destroy you and if need be, themselves in the process, who just figured out there was more than their house. No social skills with others, and they figured out how to build a car, I would probably not be very happy. Now take that context and move it over to us going into space. If I were an alien I wouldnt like it. We need to fix our problems down here before we ever start thinking of mingling with our intergalactic neighborhood.even without the alien context, yay, lets build a warp drive to go trash up another planet. Im not against invention, but lets invent something of this magnitude to fix our planet first.

What would you propose? Stop all research that seems like it's not directed towards fixing the planet? How is that decision made? Maybe this technology will lead to discoveries or other technology that does help the planet. It seems like you are against invention, because there's no way to know what will lead to the next idea, or how technologies will interrelate and spawn new ways of thinking.

What if we get out there and we find aliens, but they can't be communicated with, or don't seem to care about us enough to respond? Maybe there's nothing we could do of significance to our little corner of the galaxy to warrant any attention. Right near us there's at least thousands of stars with potentially tens of thousands of planets and moons for us to mess up. Plenty of space.

We might not rate a "hello" for a while. Or it could be the moment we start using warp technology, to warn us not to go certain places.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Druscilla

Besides that, they're certainly be some nifty spin-off trickle-down consumer tech that results from such ventures IF such ventures are indeed possible.
There indeed may come some spin-offs and trickle down just from testing, but, that's speculation.

It would be awfully high-powered physics. Generally, that sort of thing can also be used as a weapon. What if the trickle-down included a radical new weapon capable of more damage than thermonukes? Maybe even one that a third world country could build without easily spotted isotopic separation technology?

See also: "the Kzinti lesson"

The warp-drive could be used as a weapon (a devastating one at that). However it wouldn't be feasible to use it in a small area such as against another country. With warp-drive in real life, you would actually stay in regular space-time. That means anything in your path will be interacting with your ship, so you would need to employ a shield to keep it intact.

The proper way to employ the warp-drive would be to kit out a large boulder, comet/asteroid etc. Aim it towards the enemy planet, space-station or what have you & engage the warp-drive. The ensuing damage would be off the scale.

If a country wished to use the technology here on earth, then given that it uses a crazy amount of energy to power it (actually 2 types), you could obviously use that for nefarious purposes if you wished.

Originally posted by big_BHOY

Originally posted by Isee1111

Originally posted by dominicus
GREAT!!!!!!! (Sarcasm)

Can't wait to spread earth's disease, humans, onto other beautiful planets to be plundered, destroyed, religious wars spread, and third world babies making babies for starvation's sake!!!!!

Yay!!!!!

What a lovely view of humanity you have. Holidays with you must be delightful. Heh heh....

Doesn't mean it's not the truth though!

The world is what you make it, and how you respect yourself and others. The solution to your concerns about humanity are found in those simple ways of thinking. If more people attempted to spread good and take positive action there would be less problems in the world.

I really think that The Enterprise would be a fitting name for our first FTL starship, and the flagship of Earth. Yes, Earth. Not the USA, not Russia, not China. But EARTH.

I probably won't be around to see this concept be applied to an actual starship, but maybe my great grandkids will and that makes me happy.


-TS

The original news stories some weeks or a couple months back indicated that NASA or at least the NASA scientist working on this hopes for travel within the solar system within 50 years with this and and travel to the closest star system by the end of the century. Assuming the proof of concept tests work, of course, which is what this newest article says they have begun.

People shouldn't get too ahead of themselves. First of all, this "warp drive" requires a fuel source that has never been detected in the physical world and violates energy conditions. Most physicists don't even believe negative matter exists.

Now, even if negative matter exists, and even if we can convert it into the energy required to stabilize the "warped bubble", it would require the mass-energy of the Voyageur probe, which is equivalent to the mass-energy of 3000 detonations of the most powerful thermonuclear bomb in existence.

Thirdly, there's a paper in general relativity that shows that temperatures in the bubble would rise to 10^32 Kelvin, which is the Planck temperature. That's enough to destroy anything in this bubble and cause it to collapse.

There's a whole bunch of other technical problems as well. This technology is so far into the future (several millenia), that is if it is ever to be realized at all. At this point, it is nothing more than childhood fantasy by scientists who should know better.

Originally posted by Diablos
At this point, it is nothing more than childhood fantasy by scientists who should know better.

I'm sure the same could have been said about a great many inventions. When the first steam powered locomotives were brought in, everybody thought going above 25mph would kill you instantly! If there were no dreamers or people prepared to act on those dreams, we'd still be running across the savannah away from animals hell bent on eating us...

Just think back only 20 years and look what we have today. Hardly any of what we have now was even conceivable back then

Originally posted by stumason
I'm sure the same could have been said about a great many inventions. When the first steam powered locomotives were brought in, everybody thought going above 25mph would kill you instantly!

Except, there were no law of physics that stated humans would be killed by traveling at a speed of 25 mph. That was a simple old wives' tale, and nothing more. This concept requires a fuel source that goes against the most prominent laws of physics, namely the laws of energy conservation.

You can keep thinking it will eventually be invented if dreamers dream hard enough, but unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by Druscilla

I thought that a Warp Drive could not be activated inside a gravity well?
or is that just Star Trek? or some other SciFi?

It was Star Trek. Not sure of their reasoning, or if it was based in whatever theory they were basing their writing on at the time. It was either something about creating a wormhole that destroys the planet, or burning up the atmosphere. I might be wrong.

Seems like from the experiments they will be trying to create a tiny bit of warped space in the lab here on Earth. Probably harmless and safe.

reply to post by Diablos


It doesn't violate the the conservation of energy laws and is in fact mathematically possible. Many prominent physicists have done a fair amount of theoretical work on this.

You're simply assuming that because we haven't discovered any, then it must not exist.

Originally posted by stumason
It doesn't violate the the conservation of energy laws and is in fact mathematically possible.

It is mathematically consistent, that's all. There's no such thing as "mathematically possible", as such possibilities mean nothing in the physical world. The mathematics for Tachyons, for example, are quite consistent, and yet most physicists (with good reason) do not believe such particles exist in nature, and there's no physical reason to believe they exist. And yes, it does violate the law of energy of conservation as it would imply you could do an infinite amount of work with a finite amount of negative energy. This is in violation of the principles of both energy conservation (that energy can be neither created nor destroyed) and thermodynamics, as it can allow for perpetual motion machines. And no serious physicist believes that perpetual motion is possible.

Originally posted by stumasonMany prominent physicists have done a fair amount of theoretical work on this.

Argument from authority. Many prominent physicists did work on the supposed "Aether" which electromagnetic radiation such as light was thought to propagate through, which was later proven by experiment to not exist. The mathematics was consistent, and yet, it was shown not to exist in nature.

Originally posted by stumasonYou're simply assuming that because we haven't discovered any, then it must not exist.

That's not an assumption, it is based on the fact that the existence of such a thing is in direct violation of the known laws of physics.

Originally posted by Diablos

Originally posted by stumason
I'm sure the same could have been said about a great many inventions. When the first steam powered locomotives were brought in, everybody thought going above 25mph would kill you instantly!

Except, there were no law of physics that stated humans would be killed by traveling at a speed of 25 mph. That was a simple old wives' tale, and nothing more. This concept requires a fuel source that goes against the most prominent laws of physics, namely the laws of energy conservation.

You can keep thinking it will eventually be invented if dreamers dream hard enough, but unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way.

Just from changing the math they've reduced the amount of energy needed on a massive scale. Who's to say they can't solve any other problems through further testing and theorizing? That's how things go from impossible to possible.

Dreamers discovered the "new world" when it was thought they would fall off the end of the Earth. Dreamers flew when only birds flew. Dreamers went to the moon. And dreamers will go to the stars some day.

The NASA physicist who wrote this paper has already figured out how to reduce the power needed to a fraction of the original estimate and he seems to think he's going to figure out how to make all of this doable. If I had to place a bet right now, I'd put it on him rather than someone on ATS who says it can't be done because they think it violates the laws of physics.

Google docs link: Warp Field Mechanics 101
by Dr. Harold “Sonny” White, NASA Johnson Space Center, 2101 NASA Parkway, MC EP4, Houston, TX 77058

Originally posted by ikonoklast
The NASA physicist who wrote this paper has already figured out how to reduce the power needed to a fraction of the original estimate and he seems to think he's going to figure out how to make all of this doable. If I had to place a bet right now, I'd put it on him rather than someone on ATS who says it can't be done because they think it violates the laws of physics.

Google docs link: Warp Field Mechanics 101
by Dr. Harold “Sonny” White, NASA Johnson Space Center, 2101 NASA Parkway, MC EP4, Houston, TX 77058

This is not "just some user" on ATS who thinks this, but is representative of the entire physics community. How come the physics community is silent on this, while only the popular media is eating it up? Granted I'm not an expert, but you can ask any physics prof at your local university on what they think of this study.

Another interesting thing is the fact that "warp-field mechanics" paper doesn't read like an authentic physics paper you would typically read out of a respectable journal.

Originally posted by Diablos
Many prominent physicists did work on the supposed "Aether" which electromagnetic radiation such as light was thought to propagate through, which was later proven by experiment to not exist. The mathematics was consistent, and yet, it was shown not to exist in nature.

And, by following your logic to it's ultimate conclusion, it is entirely possible that said laws which so far have proven consistent may actually end up being wrong or at least need revising. Newtons "laws" of gravity have proven, since they were first posited, to not be infallible.

After all, the maths for this very warp drive "proved" only a decade ago that it would be impossible to generate the energy required, but now some revised maths has shown just a fraction of the energy required is needed.

The same can be said for pretty much every other law and theory science has. In fact, it is highly arrogant to think that are laws are infallible seeing as we know so little about the universe.

With that attitude, it begs the question what is the point in further research, seeing as you believe we have it licked already. People with far greater minds than mine or yours are entertaining the possibility, who are we to question them when they have a greater understanding of not only the subject at hand, but the very laws which you say make it impossible....

Originally posted by stumason

And, by following your logic to it's ultimate conclusion, it is entirely possible that said laws which so far have proven consistent may actually end up being wrong or at least need revising. Newtons "laws" of gravity have proven, since they were first posited, to not be infallible.

You don't seem to understand how progress in science works. Newton's laws were not infallible, yes, but they were very good approximations at low gravitational effects we feel in the real world. Einstein, when deriving both special relativity and later his general theory of relativity, had to account for the successes of Newtonian mechanics at low velocities and gravity and had to show his equations reduced to Newtonian mechanics for low velocities and gravity. Similarly, we know without a doubt the fact that energy conservation works in the real world, and hence we can conclude free energy is impossible even if energy conservation is proven to be inconsistent at some scale not seen in the real world. A new theory of energy conservation must reduce to the equations we have been using for centuries in the real world.

Originally posted by stumasonAfter all, the maths for this very warp drive "proved" only a decade ago that it would be impossible to generate the energy required, but now some revised maths has shown just a fraction of the energy required is needed.

Doesn't matter. Reducing the math from a planet's worth of Unicorn blood to a gallon of Unicorn blood is useless, because such a thing doesn't exist in nature.

Originally posted by stumasonThe same can be said for pretty much every other law and theory science has. In fact, it is highly arrogant to think that are laws are infallible seeing as we know so little about the universe.

That is patently false. Read the above to see why.

Originally posted by stumasonWith that attitude, it begs the question what is the point in further research, seeing as you believe we have it licked already. People with far greater minds than mine or yours are entertaining the possibility, who are we to question them when they have a greater understanding of not only the subject at hand, but the very laws which you say make it impossible....

No previous theory has ever been completely thrown out since Newtonian mechanics, but the theory was first found to be inconsistent with nature at certain scales and a new theory is then formulated that would reduce to the previous classical theory, hence the previous theory becomes a good approximation rather than fact of nature. Still, all of the limitations of the previous theory are still true except at those scales which it was inconsistent, which is usually irrelevant in the real world.

And most physicists consider the "warp drive" concept to be a mathematical trick at best and sheer fantasy at worst. There's a reason why the physics community are silent on this "warp drive breakthrough", while the popular media is eating it up.

Originally posted by Diablos
And most physicists consider the "warp drive" concept to be a mathematical trick at best and sheer fantasy at worst. There's a reason why the physics community are silent on this "warp drive breakthrough", while the popular media is eating it up.

Haven't seen this story plastered on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or anywhere that popular really.

Maybe the physics community is silent because they don't feel the need to poo poo every pure research project? If we only pursued the things we already think we know everything about then we'd never learn anything new.

Something to consider, but not put too much stock in ...

Home computer for the year 2004 as imagined in 1954:


Additionally, the high tech Media Room of the Future as imagined in 1979:


As we can see from our current perspective, such dated predictions were a wee bit off.

It's 2012 and we can carry the entire contents of both illustrations above plus much more in a pants pocket where we have access to maps, GPS, news, libraries of information, communications, movies, music, mail, banking, weather, astronomy software, games, camera, and much much more.

50 years of progress from now? What do we have now that only large mega-corporations can currently afford, that take up whole rooms we might project progress forward such that it'll then be consumer affordable 1000x more efficient and functional than current, and can fit in a pants pocket?

I'm going for attack helicopter. Anyone else?
In 50 years I want an attack helicopter I can pull outah muh pants.

reply to post by Isee1111


Are we talking gravity elektrodynamic propulsion modulator here...?

Anyways Rockwell has been developing a simular idea and is onto something...if you'd ask me

reply to post by Diablos


On the contrary, I know precisely how scientific advancement works, being an Engineer by trade. I'm just not blinkered by a blind devotion to closely held theories and laws to think that anything else is impossible.

You yourself have said that Newtons "laws", once thought to be indisputable have now been found to be "close approximations" - hardly a "law" then, by scientific standards, is it?

Even Einstein's theory of relativity has been shown to have holes, requiring further refinement, leading to what is known as the Standard model, which now quite a few physicists are wondering if is even true at all, owing to the stunning lack of the Higgs-Boson @ CERN. It may turn out to be true, false or require "further refinement".

Scientists have also come up with "dark matter" "dark energy" to fill the holes in our current understanding and to explain observed phenomenon, but they have yet to actually discover any of this stuff, it exists purely as a mathematical construct to explain the holes in current understanding, but there is a general consensus it exists none the less.

Who's to say such a warp drive even needs exotic matter at all? Space-time can be warped using normal matter, your doing it right now in fact.

You seem to so damned certain about something you have admitted you know little about, contradicting someone who holds a PhD in Physics, plus a MSc and BSc in Engineering and also works for NASA - namely Dr Harold White who works as the Advanced Propulsion Theme lead for the NASA Engineering Directorate.

You claim "most physicists" think this idea to be ludicrous, care to offer up proof of such a claim?