Is the Christian Trinity a Conspiracy ?

reply to post by NarrowGate

I missed the part where it is male driven? The Father and the Holy Spirit have no gender and the Church does not teach otherwise.

So every time the Bible, the ultimate religious authority in the eyes of the Church, refers to "him" or "he", it's clearly not implying any sort of gender identification. Right.

Wiccans are following demons, and many of them actually know this. Some of them "summon" them and do "magic". IE selling their souls. Demons created many false religions, and copied much of God's truth just to twist it into idol worship.

They understand the power of the self. They know they can control their own lives. And better yet, it helps them understand the parts of their lives they can't control. There is virtue to understanding chaos, because it allows you to make the best of of the worst. It's much better than selling your soul for an eternity of servitude.

And believe it or not, the trinity is based on traditions far older than Christianity.

So every time the Bible, the ultimate religious authority in the eyes of the Church, refers to "him" or "he", it's clearly not implying any sort of gender identification. Right.

If the Word said she, you would be complaining that it is feminist. Truth be told, the Bible is not a stand alone ultimate authority because there are soooo many false interpretations. It is, however, the ultimate study guide.

Wiccans are following demons, and many of them actually know this. Some of them "summon" them and do "magic". IE selling their souls. Demons created many false religions, and copied much of God's truth just to twist it into idol worship.

- I said that and you said:

They understand the power of the self. They know they can control their own lives. And better yet, it helps them understand the parts of their lives they can't control. There is virtue to understanding chaos, because it allows you to make the best of of the worst. It's much better than selling your soul for an eternity of servitude.

1. Exactly, worshiping of self is Idol worship and a demonic trademark. They need to understand the power of God, instead of the power of self. To understand, you must first realize that you are nothing and know nothing compared to the One you wish to Follow.
2. They know what!? No they can not no one can. You can only control aspects of your life, the parts God allows you control over. To try to take more control is a bad plan. We are here to be tested, the world is a training ground not a bath tub.
3. Who said you should not study your enemy (reference to understanding chaos). In order to make the absolute best of the worst you must trust in God. Demons will help you make a bad situation better, but for a price.

And believe it or not, the trinity is based on traditions far older than Christianity.

The Son was not revealed until 2,000 years ago. If you read the OT you can understand why. We are saved from our disobedience. And are we wrong to obey the true God instead of the powers of this world, Satan? That is the only other option. If you follow God most are going to hate you. It is not an easy path. However, a servant can never be greater than his master. Jesus did get a lot of hate, and so will you if you choose to follow God instead of Satan.

Look at the Universe He made. As many stars in our Galaxy as there are grains of sand on the earth, and just as many galaxies in the Universe. And we can only see like 10% of it!

You do not want to serve the creator of this magnificent Universe?

reply to post by NarrowGate

If the Word said she, you would be complaining that it is feminist. Truth be told, the Bible is not a stand alone ultimate authority because there are soooo many false interpretations. It is, however, the ultimate study guide.

I would be satisfied to call the word "it". The word "it" is indicative of nothing but existence. It doesn't have to be conscious of itself, because "it" doesn't even mean "it" is alive. It is can idea, a concept...and really, considering the nature of spirit, "it" is probably the best label.

The Bible is by far the most commonly quoted material in the religion forums. That makes it the most highly regarded authoritative religious guide.

1. Exactly, worshiping of self is Idol worship and a demonic trademark. They need to understand the power of God, instead of the power of self. To understand, you must first realize that you are nothing and know nothing compared to the One you wish to Follow.
2. They know what!? No they can not no one can. You can only control aspects of your life, the parts God allows you control over. To try to take more control is a bad plan. We are here to be tested, the world is a training ground not a bath tub.
3. Who said you should not study your enemy (reference to understanding chaos). In order to make the absolute best of the worst you must trust in God. Demons will help you make a bad situation better, but for a price.

1. How can you ever expect to grow if you keep telling yourself it's no use? Self-empowerment is not a crime. It is actually a very good practice - it teaches you to have confidence in yourself, to chase your dreams, and to put out what you wish to receive. If this is wrong, then why were we supposedly given free will?

2. So taking control of your own life is also wrong? Refer to my above statement on self-empowerment. If that's the sort of god you worship, if that is the sort of character you look up to, then I pity you as a human being. That kind of mentality is literally a plague on your soul. You have limited something that wasn't meant to have limits.

3. What I just read in your third point...let me see if I understand: you agree with studying the enemy, but encourage others to trust "God" without the same suspicion? You realize he is the FATHER of those enemies, right? Everything they are and everything they have done, came from him. He knew what they would do, and he made them. He could have stopped any given instance before it ever had a chance to begin. You want us to trust "God" about everything in the entire world, from his nature to the nature of his enemies, and believe despite his crimes against humanity, his word can always be trusted?

Yeah, have fun with that. I've read books about those kind of guys. They don't turn out to be very friendly.

The Son was not revealed until 2,000 years ago. If you read the OT you can understand why. We are saved from our disobedience. And are we wrong to obey the true God instead of the powers of this world, Satan? That is the only other option. If you follow God most are going to hate you. It is not an easy path. However, a servant can never be greater than his master. Jesus did get a lot of hate, and so will you if you choose to follow God instead of Satan.

He. Made. Satan.

He. Is. God.

He is the undisputed all-powerful master of the universe, the father of everything we see today. He can end it just as easily as he made it. And he can't control a monster he created? Don't give me that bull feces. Don't even think about trying to sell me that line. Once again, I shall quote Epicurus, as he puts it quite eloquently:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

Please enlighten me with an answer to his questions. I haven't yet seen one in all of ATS, but maybe you'll impress me.

Look at the Universe He made. As many stars in our Galaxy as there are grains of sand on the earth, and just as many galaxies in the Universe. And we can only see like 10% of it!

You do not want to serve the creator of this magnificent Universe?

Why the hell would I sell my soul for a fireworks display? It takes more than pretty lights and a lot of free time to be a worthy king. It doesn't surprise me that you are so easily convinced.

I would be satisfied to call the word "it".

Actually the Word is Jesus, who is in fact male. The Father and the Holy Spirit are up for debate, but it is logical to call them male or non-gender. Arguments can be made either way. We don't have a non-gender word to describe people and it implies there is no person.

The Bible is by far the most commonly quoted material in the religion forums. That makes it the most highly regarded authoritative religious guide.

It can not be interpreted by the individual without constant error. That is dangerous, and you know it.

1. How can you ever expect to grow if you keep telling yourself it's no use? Self-empowerment is not a crime. It is actually a very good practice - it teaches you to have confidence in yourself, to chase your dreams, and to put out what you wish to receive. If this is wrong, then why were we supposedly given free will?

1. Who said I am telling myself it is no use? Define grow? You are right, self-empowerment is not a crime. I do not want any of my power through myself though, only through God. I am a foolish sinner. If my power does not come from God, it is of no avail in the end. Only through His wisdom can we properly put power to use. There is nothing wrong with working hard to attain a goal, but it is not something that actually matters if you do not walk with Him. It is better to have walked with Him and not attained any goal in this life other than that. We are given free will because God actually loves us, and I will be surprising you with my answers to one of your questions.

2. So taking control of your own life is also wrong?

Yes it is, you can not handle it. You must walk with Him, or you will fall to Satan. We are to be made like gods, this world is a test and is our training ground. Not our playground.

3. What I just read in your third point...let me see if I understand: you agree with studying the enemy, but encourage others to trust "God" without the same suspicion? You realize he is the FATHER of those enemies, right? Everything they are and everything they have done, came from him. He knew what they would do, and he made them. He could have stopped any given instance before it ever had a chance to begin. You want us to trust "God" about everything in the entire world, from his nature to the nature of his enemies, and believe despite his crimes against humanity, his word can always be trusted?

As I said, this world is a training ground. We are to be made perfect, and like gods. Satan has killed a few of my friends, so I can almost understand your point but it is false and emotionally based.

Yeah, have fun with that. I've read books about those kind of guys. They don't turn out to be very friendly.

Appearances of people and situations can be extremely deceiving. You seem smart enough to understand that, there are many who would not.

He. Made. Satan.

No, Lucifer became Satan after he chose to rebel against God (Satan has no gender).

....And he can't control a monster he created?

Yes, he could crush Satan with 0 effort.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

I hope you are willing to listen brother. God is able and not willing, and that does not make him malevolent. It makes your understanding incomplete. Evil comes from rebelling against Love, which is God. Evil can appear to be benevolent. If I can get you to read these 3 parables in this order, I will be happy. 1. The Parable of the Sower 2. The Parable of the Wheat and the Weeds 3. The parable of the lost sheep. I hope you will do this and respond with your thoughts. As I said, this world is not our playground, but our training ground. We are to be made perfect, like our Father, and to be made like gods. Demons test us, and we learn from those tests. So you are right about sin having *some* value to us.

Please enlighten me with an answer to his questions. I haven't yet seen one in all of ATS, but maybe you'll impress me.

Do these answers suffice?

Look at the Universe He made. As many stars in our Galaxy as there are grains of sand on the earth, and just as many galaxies in the Universe. And we can only see like 10% of it!

- I said that, but felt it should be reiterated. I for one am very impressed.

I ask again:
You do not want to serve the creator of this magnificent Universe? He does love you, and He IS looking for you brother. This is real, I have seen a minor miracle with my own eyes. An unmistakable sign.

Thank you for the intelligent discussion

AI I would like to hear your input in this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... it will help your understanding and your input might help mine as well.

reply to post by NarrowGate

1. Who said I am telling myself it is no use? Define grow? You are right, self-empowerment is not a crime. I do not want any of my power through myself though, only through God. I am a foolish sinner. If my power does not come from God, it is of no avail in the end. Only through His wisdom can we properly put power to use. There is nothing wrong with working hard to attain a goal, but it is not something that actually matters if you do not walk with Him. It is better to have walked with Him and not attained any goal in this life other than that. We are given free will because God actually loves us, and I will be surprising you with my answers to one of your questions.

You've just proven my first point. For anyone reading this, compare his degradation and self-debasement to my predictions regarding lack of self-empowerment.

Yes it is, you can not handle it. You must walk with Him, or you will fall to Satan. We are to be made like gods, this world is a test and is our training ground. Not our playground.

Let's compare notes. "God" made "Satan". "God" is unquestionably more powerful than "Satan", and could destroy him in an instant using any means he pleases. "Satan" makes everyone turn against "God". "God" knew he would do this and still made him. "God" offers a bargain: worship him, or be given to "Satan". Both want your soul. "God" insults and oppresses "Satan", "Satan" doesn't offer a word of argument or complaint. He was designed to be a scapegoat, and what a marvelous one he makes.

I'm not really sure who the bad guy in that situation is. A bad guy being kept around to punish the people the hero doesn't like? Threatening to feed them to the lions if they don't surrender their soul? Batman would never do that. Superman would never do that. Spiderman would never do that. I don't think Jesus ever did it, or Ghandi, or Martin Luther King, or numerous other fictional or historical heroes. That's a bad guy shtick right there.

I really don't think much argument can be made here. Without ever bothering to consult "Satan", you take "God" at his word without ever stopping to think that you might want to hold back on the life plan and check his criminal background. Very poor detective work.

As I said, this world is a training ground. We are to be made perfect, and like gods. Satan has killed a few of my friends, so I can almost understand your point but it is false and emotionally based.

Faith is an emotion, so I could say the same about you. At least I'm able to defend how I feel without consulting a book to tell me what to say. You don't know a thing about perfection. What is perfection to you? To be flawless for all of forever? Then what's the point of being alive? We will all be the same person, doing the same things, never learning or seeing or hearing or smelling anything new. Hell is repetition. And what better repetition than the same exact experience over and over and over for the rest of eternity? That's when you'll think back, and remember all the mistakes and sinful experiences, and you'll say, "You know, at least it was exciting. I learned stuff. I could FEEL. It was never boring." And that's when you'll understand that everything has a purpose. The more flawed we are, the more purpose we have. The more reasons to try harder, and the more triumphs to be had, the sort of experiences that create a glow in your heart and make you glad to be alive.

No, Lucifer became Satan after he chose to rebel against God (Satan has no gender).

Historical documentation seems to indicate the two are not the same.

God is able and not willing, and that does not make him malevolent. It makes your understanding incomplete.

I will look into those parables. But you do not truly understand the meaning of benevolence, if that is really what you think. Benevolence, pure benevolence, cannot help but stop evil when it can. Something that is truly pure of heart will not be able to resist throwing itself in the path of a bullet to save something it loves. And to condemn...well, that's not benevolent at all. Not to condemn something you created, knowing what it would become.

I ask again:
You do not want to serve the creator of this magnificent Universe? He does love you, and He IS looking for you brother. This is real, I have seen a minor miracle with my own eyes. An unmistakable sign.

Thank you for the intelligent discussion

About your description of the universe - see my previous reply to that question.

Your unmistakable sign could be merely a lack of comprehension on your part.

reply to post by dollukka


"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

This verse has been used by trinity believers for many years, but the original hebrew understanding and the definition of Elohim will make this perfectly clear and NOT explained by the trinity, nor aliens, nor multiple gods.

Elohim = the name of the God family in time.

Like a family name here in physical mankind aka the "Smith's". Smith is a name which all the members of the Smith family bare. It identifies them as one united family, and sheds light on who they were and what they did (blacksmiths) at the time they were named.

Currently there are only 2 members of Elohim; Yahweh Elohim (God Almighty, the creator of all things, eternally existing) and Jesus Christ Elohim (His son, the high priest and king of kings, born of Mary, not eternally existed).

God's plan in time is to create billions of members of Elohim through the creation of physical mankind. Our ultimate purpose in life as a whole is to become Elohim. God created a plan to accomplish that end in perfection over time. God's annual holy days, commanded to be kept forever and throughout your generations, teach physical mankind about the plan for the salvation of all and enterance into Elohim. The weekly sabbath is the broadest overview of that plan. 6 days you can go about your business but the 7th day is set aside for holy use and purpose.

"a day is as a a thousand years..."

6 days = 6000 years (ending on Pentecost 2013) for mankind to govern themselves apart from God, create their own cultures, governments, religions, laws etc.; by giving mankind this freedom, God is actually teaching mankind that all ways of life apart from His lead to suffering, pain and ultimatelty death; the world you see around you is the proof of this claim.

7th day = next 1000 years (millenial reign of the Kingdom of God i.e. ELOHIM over the physical earth) After Pentecost of 2013 physical mankind that still remains on earth (after the death of billions soon to occur) will be ruled over by God's family (Elohim) which will then be made up of 144,000 new members (those redeemed in the last 6000 years as a result of growing in unity and oneness with the mind/spirit of God Almighty) this group includes the prophets worked with externally in the OT by God directly, as well as those in God's true church during the last 2000 years that were blessed to have God's holy spirit dwell in their minds to be worked with internally because the Pasover sacrifice of Jesus Christ has made the Holy Spirit accessable to mankind (as pictured in the Holy Day of Atonement). They include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Mary, Joseph, the Apostles and other varias members of the Body of Chirst/Church of God throughout time.

In the 6000 years of the age of mankinds self rule only 144,000 individuals were worked with for the purpose of qualifying to become members of Elohim at the sounding of the 7th trumpet begining on the day of Pentecost 2013. Currently every single one of them are dead laying in the ground according to God's will (except a very few still alive today), on that day, they will be resurrected to immortal spirit life as members of the family of God (Elohim), now brothers and sisters with Christ for eternity.

It is the Elohim of God that rules the age to come with 144,001 members (Jesus Christ the king of kings) they are the Temple of God with all its members living stones fit perfectly together with Jesus Christ as the chief corner stone.

So to review the verse in Genesis:

"Let us to make man in our image, in our likeness"

a better English translation is thus:

"Allow Elohim (the God Family) to transform over time mankind into the image (character; since God is spiritual and not physical, this image is spiritual/mind/thinking/character) of Elohim (the God family, now and into the future) in Elohim's (the God Family) way of thinking."

When this was uttered there was only one in Elohim (Yahweh Elohim), God used the present progessive form of Elohim because His plan includes billions of members being added to His family when all is finished. It means that throughout the next 7000+ years of the physical existance of mankind, let all members of Elohim share in the work of transforming mankind into the same manner of thinking as Elohim, so that all can become spiritual children of God the Father forever at one with the way of thinking that leads to peace, happines and prosperity for all life in existance.

We were created to become members of Elohim over time according to God perfect plan of salvation, the trinity tricks mankind into thinking that the God family is a closed door of 3 beings, this is a deception influenced by a jealous being (Satan) who knows that angels were NOT created to become Elohim, and therefore he has tried to convince mankind that they cannot become what Christ became.

God Bless,

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by truejew

 

Alright what about this one ?

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV)

This was even on pg 1 of this thread. Do we right John off as a liar ?

Narrowgate

Guess it's all yours again Narrow.

edit on 9-12-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

John is not a liar at all. However the word translated as "spirit" in that verse is the following in orignal Greek:

Pneuma

the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated (life energy)
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul

The correct translation into English of the original Greek is:

"For there are three aspects which bare record of the individual mind in the presence of heaven (regarding those individuals called out of this age and into the Body of Christ), God the Father, The word (logos, relevatory thoughts i.e. the manner in which you recieve the word of God in your life, how God reveals his nature to you) and the spirit/mind of the individual throughout their lives (how you think), and these three aspects are in agreement (atoned)."

It means God bares witness, you bare witness and the interaction between God and you (through God's spirit dwelling in you) bare witness as to your transformation from a natural carnal mind to one in the image/likness of God's, thus at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the individuals transformation to an immortal spirit being in Elohim can be justified due to the evidence of these witnesses.

This verse was altered at the counsel of Nicea in order to push the false doctrine of the trinity to the mass(es).

Just as the word translated as "easter", used to justify the pagan fertility feastival of Ishtar/Easter/Ashteroth was really "Passover" bringing glory and perfection to God's plan involving His son as the Passover Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, whos blood spilt to the earth on the exact day of Passover when he died for our sins on the pole.

God Bless,

reply to post by AfterInfinity


For now I will leave you with this because I can not address all of your points right now.

The spirit is all that matters, the flesh is of no avail. Satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. We are fallen and exiled. Like I said, Faith is not emotionally based for me. It is only logical. From the foundation of logic, the emotions come. They are good, yes.

We are not supposed to be enjoying this. 80% of the world is suffering, and your current life is a test. More specifically, a question.

Benevolent? Oh yes. In exchange for loyalty, we will have an Eternity of pure bliss. We are His children, remember that. If you come back to Him, you just might find Him sparing you the rod. Please respond to those parables, and I will get back to the rest of your post later.

reply to post by NarrowGate


I'm having a rather difficult time pinpointing your lack of comprehension in this subject. It's really not that complicated. Up to this point. I've gotten the impression numerous times that you're deliberately avoiding various facets of the truths you claim to be sharing. I've already outlined the relationship between “God” and “Satan” more times than I care to recount, and I've already given a brief overview of their respective character profiles. I've taken into account the deeds committed by each, as well as examined the circumstances of each deed. My conclusion, after analyzing all of these things, is quite simple:

“God” made his bed, decided he didn't like it, and is holding our souls hostage so he doesn't have to lie in it. And whenever he gets called out on his bullcrap, he drags his brother “Satan” into the equation so he can pin everything on the little guy. Does anyone bother asking “Satan”? Does anyone bother getting the story from him? No. You're only talking to the big guy, the guy pulling all the strings. If cops went with the story of the first suspect, how many innocent men do you think would be incarcerated? And how many murderers, thieves, rapists, con artists and psychopaths would be walking free?

I can't think of any other way to explain this to you. All my other ideas are different versions of the same story, the same logical breakdown, the same analysis I've been spewing all over the spiritual threads...but to no avail. You don't trust my opinion? You don't care? Ask a professional profiler. Don't mention a name, just give a rundown of all of “God”s demands, accomplishments, and personality traits. Don't forget to throw his pet rottweiler into the mix too. And then listen. Listen to the psychologist, and take notes on all the disorders. Let's get a real-world diagnosis, every single one that applies, slapped on him. See how many centuries of maximum security he's earned.

Steering this discussion back towards the topic, everything I just typed above gets heaped on top of the steaming pile of manure that is the “Christianity invented the trinity” argument. The divine trinity can be traced back much further than Christianity. Conspiracy? I don't know. Cover up? Maybe. Stolen? Definitely. Especially when you look back at all the previous cultures and say, “Oh, they hijacked our religion.”

Really? The people you slaughtered hijacked your religion? The people who either converted or died are responsible for the mangled shreds of paganism clinging to the filched bones of Judaism? Don't make me laugh. The only reason Christianity survived is because it's convenient and it's powerful. Never has spirituality been so easy. Never has spirituality given us so much freedom. Never has spirituality been so fake. Christianity is designed to control inspiration.

There is no argument here. None. Sorry, but I'd love to see you refute everything I just typed. I don't think you'll be able to, but I'd love to see you do it. I really would. I don't want to be wrong, and if I am, please, point it out. Give me a good reason to sell my soul. And if you're gonna sell me a lie, at least make it a damn good one. So far, all I've been getting is garbage.

But before I post this, I have one last thing to make perfectly clear: there's plenty of historical documentation to prove many of the events in the Bible. I can't deny that, nor would I wish to. I'd prefer that it be used to lend less credence to that which can't be proven, but I can't change that. In the end, all that documentation really proves to me is that the people of the Bible were a bunch of frightened, desperate sheep. Someone knew what they wanted, and gave it to them...for a price. Integrity was a fatal flaw in those days; betrayal was a much more profitable business. It doesn't surprise me that so many were willing to give up their souls for a man who convinced them that they were all winners. In reality, they had nothing better to do with their souls. They had nothing to lose. Is it any wonder they put all their chips forward in the hope for something better? It's not like they had a more appealing option.

Anyway...prove me wrong. Please, show me I'm in error. My soul, my life, is the most valuable thing I have. I don't want to waste it. And now, it's your move. Time for you to make good use of your brain.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I will get back to all of this post too. I have to add this now though.

Satan is not God's brother. He was an Archangel and was asked to serve. He refused. Now, he knows he already lost. Now he is roaming the earth testing God's children, because God allows. God knew all of this would happen before it even happened.

So to answer the question that I thought I already did:

God made Lucifer, Lucifer became Satan when he, along with 1/3rd of the angels, rebelled.

God has not yet sent Satan to the lake of fire because we are to be tested. If you have a problem with that, I guess you will have to take it up with the Lord. Anyways, Satan now wants to get as many of us in Hell as he can because he is bitter. That is what it comes down to. He is the father of all lies, and much smarter than us. We only overcome Satan through God.

It would seem you just don't like it. Well, I guess Heaven is not for everyone. There have always been those who would choose Hell and I guess you are one of them. I must admit, it is a terrible plan. Do you indeed choose Hell?

Once again, for clarity, this is a training ground not a playground. Do not approach this like a cop. That implies you actually know something, which you do not. Do not be the foolish cop who jumps to conclusions and ruins families.

I will get back to all of your points I have a bit of catching up to do so IDK when I will get to it.

eta: If you do consider the possibility that you are wrong, I would recommend not saying a word against the Holy Spirit. It is the one sin that will not be forgiven.

reply to post by NarrowGate

God has not yet sent Satan to the lake of fire because we are to be tested. If you have a problem with that, I guess you will have to take it up with the Lord. Anyways, Satan now wants to get as many of us in Hell as he can because he is bitter. That is what it comes down to. He is the father of all lies, and much smarter than us. We only overcome Satan through God.

Why would "God" want to test us when he could just create a race of fleshy robots? He would be worshipped for all of eternity without a single problem. Why should he make a challenge for himself at our expense? That's not very nice at all.

If Hell let's me exercise my free will and let's me be who I am, then get me my handbasket and sunglasses!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NarrowGate

 

God has not yet sent Satan to the lake of fire because we are to be tested. If you have a problem with that, I guess you will have to take it up with the Lord. Anyways, Satan now wants to get as many of us in Hell as he can because he is bitter. That is what it comes down to. He is the father of all lies, and much smarter than us. We only overcome Satan through God.

Why would "God" want to test us when he could just create a race of fleshy robots? He would be worshipped for all of eternity without a single problem. Why should he make a challenge for himself at our expense? That's not very nice at all.

If Hell let's me exercise my free will and let's me be who I am, then get me my handbasket and sunglasses!

Satan is the one who wishes to enslave us, and has done so on this earth.

Do you really think it is just at your expense? We were disloyal to God and are fallen. God suffered greatly to save us from our fallen state. We can now break free of our enslavement even while on this earth, through Him.

Hell does not let you exercise free will, and unless you have eliminated sin from your life you are not who you are yet.

eta: you want me to go back and address the points I missed or just continue?

reply to post by NarrowGate

Satan is the one who wishes to enslave us, and has done so on this earth.

Is that so? Because I don't see him making a whole lot of threats. And if he wishes to enslave us, why would "God" give our souls to him? Arm the supervillain with a freakin' army of bad people who will do anything to avoid eternal torture? While he keeps everyone who is righteous and willing to die for him.

I gotta tell ya...it smells a lot like war. But why a war? Why would he start a war when he could settle the matter with a whim? So much death and destruction - for what? To test us? He's omniscient, he already knows what he will decide and why, almost before he even knows what the question is. He will never administer the test because he knows exactly what the results will be. He designed the system that generated those results, and he wrote the complete detailed life story of every single second and every single bit of existence, from the birth to the death of this whole universe. He can rewrite it, reformat it, change the laws of physics, copy it...or delete it. There is nothing he does not know, and there will never be anything he does not know. Nothing he cannot do, and nothing he will ever not be able to do. He is all-powerful. Unstoppable. There is creative challenge for him. He has every cheat code. He has every backdoor. He owns the keys, and he is the program. All of reality, every reality, is his to command. The Beginning and the End are as easy and simple as breathing for him. If he is truly benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient...then war should be the last thing on his mind.

For an omniscient and omnipotent being, war would be like pressing the "Win" button on Pacman - if Pacman had a "Win" button. He can win any time he wants. It's losing he's looking for. He wants to be bested by his creation. What's a more perfect creation, a more perfect student, than the one that transcends its master? That's when you know your legacy will be carried on. That's when you know that you've succeeded, and you no longer have to worry about your children. That is when you accept that you've given all of existence your greatest gift...the knowledge of how to transcend you. The power to be better, always better, than what you used to be. Forever growing. Otherwise, there's no point to existing at all.

But either way, it sure looks like war. So if he's purely benevolent:

be·nev·o·lent
/bəˈnɛvələnt/ Show Spelled [buh-nev-uh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
characterized by or expressing goodwill or kindly feelings: a benevolent attitude; her benevolent smile.
2.
desiring to help others; charitable: gifts from several benevolent alumni.
3.
intended for benefits rather than profit: a benevolent institution.

If he's purely benevolent, then neither Hell nor Satan should ever have been born. If at any point it would have any possibility of hurting someone, it would never be made. It would be redesigned and then created. If you are right, then Satan should never have happened. Not if you're right about "God" too. On one or the other, you are wrong. It cannot be both ways.

So as I have said before: if you're gonna sell me a lie, make it a damn good one.

Do you really think it is just at your expense? We were disloyal to God and are fallen. God suffered greatly to save us from our fallen state. We can now break free of our enslavement even while on this earth, through Him.

Disloyal? How were we disloyal? The fruit? Haha. Again, if it had truly been his intention that we not taste the fruit, "Satan" would never have been in that garden. The tree would never have been in that garden. Or if it was, a thick hedge would have grown around it to prevent access. Or maybe in another part of the land, far away from the garden, still in easy reach for a god. He was GOD. Anything he could imagine, was done, and it was done flawlessly. In every possible sense of the phrase, he was invincible. But he was helpless to keep a talking snake from convincing Eve to grab a snack with her lover?

You should seriously get your money back. Those fairytales are worthless.

Hell does not let you exercise free will, and unless you have eliminated sin from your life you are not who you are yet.

How do you know? Have you been there?

eta: you want me to go back and address the points I missed or just continue?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


If you would follow Satan, you would follow the one who brought death into this world. Like I said, it seems you just don't like the idea of being tested. You want the world to be your playground. You have seen the power of God and the beauty of His creation. You have seen His love. To reject Him would be foolish, but your choice. As I said, you would be far from the first to make that choice.

reply to post by NarrowGate

If you would follow Satan, you would follow the one who brought death into this world.

No. "God" made death. "God" made life, and "God" made death. According to the Bible, anyway.

Like I said, it seems you just don't like the idea of being tested.

If that's what you think, then you haven't read a word I posted. I don't like being judged. I don't care about tested. Test me, I'll show you what I think. But I don't like being judged. And I don't believe in any parent asking their children to worship them. It's wrong. Worship is completely unnecessary. We have far better things to work on than our veneration skills.

You want the world to be your playground.

No. I want him to stop judging us, now and forever. Either wipe us out and start over, or get over the fact that we're not perfect.

You have seen the power of God and the beauty of His creation. You have seen His love. To reject Him would be foolish, but your choice. As I said, you would be far from the first to make that choice.

*turns on the news* Yep, I've seen his love. I kinda wish he'd "love" us a little less, if you know what I mean. If we are made in his image, then "God" must be a real douche.

Are you going to answer all the other points I raised? Or have you run out of defenses?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33



Every Christian needs to ask themselves these questions ?
Please first use the right terminologies , Blue, that will clear much of the confusion already.
"gods chosen people the jews " is a non-biblical phrase, because "jews " have nothing to do with old-israel. The whole ' gods chosen people - thing " is invented by Esau: and you know he became the archenemy of old-israel, and over time it was HE [ esau ] who started to name his kind of people as ' jews '.. ok ?

second,
it is *irrelevant* that satans pantheons imitated the Trinity concept, and "thus prooving they was in existance befóre His trinity ". There s also something like " imitating , ahead of linear time ", right ?
compare it like ' evil got a head start already " [ which is always the case btw ]
..and he erected false trinities like the sumerian, horus, etc etc.

If uyou disagree in this " ahead of our linear Time "
then tell me: if the Lord was once , in our linear time, on earth, yet He said , that what He has done was " for all the generations befóre as well as áfter the Cross " [ = the event in linear time ] ,

then why cant evil have erected ' false trinities ' , in linear time, befóre the event of the cross happened ?

But Evil uses these ' logical arguments ' to make the mind subconsciously reject aspects of Him,
replacing aspects with its own interpretation.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Jesus loves you, and is looking for you. To reject Him is your choice, but He is real and did create all of this. His creations created sin, not Him.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Christianity which is a Jewish religion didnt start off as a monotheistic religion. Just because they teach you that now, doesn't mean that's how it was originally taught,

Look at the original Adam and Eve story. Adam and Lilth were made in the Gods image. Why would a male and female human be made in the image of 1 god, and if that 1 god was male...? Think about it...

reply to post by knightsofhonor


Man was made in his image. The same was never said of Eve. Read your scripture before you start nitpicking.