Fellow atheists, let's accept the free gift

Originally posted by swan001
Well, I can't defend atheist, as they're the one attacking. I just want people to stop blindly inter-attacking each other. Both sides are not perfect.

Being that I like to see what people believe and why they believe it, how do I go about discussing these things without you accusing me of "attacking"? Sure, there are many things I see that seem silly to me that religious people believe in. How do I go about discussing that with them? Should I just leave it alone?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by mikelkhall

 

Your earthly father may have paid a monetary price, but our heavenly Father paid with the price of his own Son to give an even greater life to everyone.

Can you explain the mechanism behind blood sacrifice? How does this work? When god saw his son's blood shed from his body, did he say, "Finally! Now I have the ability to forgive people..." ???

reply to post by Hydroman


Haha! I never thought of it like that before. But even then, it didn't work, because he's not going to forgive everyone, only the people who give their soul to him. Kinda sounds like "Satan". But Jesus rose three days later, so he reneged on the deal. Isn't that why the world is so screwed up now? Jesus didn't stay dead, so we got all of our sins back!

reply to post by Hydroman

agnostic atheist

Thanks for the laugh. Complete and utter nonsense. Wikipedia twisting things to suit all as usual.##You cannot be an atheist and still say the there might be a Deity.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by Hydroman

 

agnostic atheist

Thanks for the laugh. Complete and utter nonsense. Wikipedia twisting things to suit all as usual.##You cannot be an atheist and still say the there might be a Deity.

Did you know that agnosticism doesn't say that there might be a deity? They say that THEY DON'T KNOW what the answer is.

Here's a video of the four positions you can have towards the existence of gods. Maybe you'll learn something?

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Hydroman


All four of those positions are based around a god, or lack thereof. Let's check the definition of what a "god" is, according to Merriam-Webster:

1god
noun \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Definition of GOD
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

3: a person or thing of supreme value

4: a powerful ruler

If you'll humor me here, I'd like to pick the definition with the least stigma attached, or at least something of a balance to it. So let's go with the Christian Science approach, and break it down so there's no misunderstanding.

Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit

Translated: The nonphysical celestial law ruling over all as an unchanging essence.


Well, can't say I really argue with that one, but it's the SPECIFICS I'm not fond of. Maybe I have something in common with Christians after all.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It's a non-issue. And everyone who has participated in this thread has wasted their time. Apparently, me included.

I can accept your opinion that this is a non-issue. I also am sorry that you feel like you've wasted your time here.

reply to post by Hydroman


I wish I had a good answer for you concerning blood sacrifice. The actual mechanism (I would say the physics behind it) may be something that only God knows.
I even asked my mentor, the preacher at our two local non-denominational congregations, and, after some back and forth, we pretty much decided on that.
It's likely that it's not actually blood sacrifice that's required. What's more probably is that "blood" represented life, and therefore blood also came to be an important part in the sacrifice that ultimately restored life to mankind.

As for God's forgiveness... it's not a matter of God not being able to forgive, it's more that his divine justice demands certain things in order to grant forgiveness. The final result of God's justice will be his outpouring of wrath on all who have not received Christ. But even that will lead to forgiveness, because this judgment is remedial - it intends to correct disobedient behavior, not just punish it. Once disobedience (sin) is remedied, then these former-sinners receive life through Christ's victory in his resurrection.

Christians (true Christians, that is) simply bypass God's wrath by being covered by Christ's death and resurrection now instead of later. That's the only difference, but it is a dramatic difference (avoiding wrath versus undergoing wrath).

Originally posted by CLPrime
As for God's forgiveness... it's not a matter of God not being able to forgive, it's more that his divine justice demands certain things in order to grant forgiveness.

...and that would be that he had to die himself?

Look at this way: Before god created anything, he was, wherever he was, doing whatever he did, then came up with an idea. His idea was to, well, create EVERYTHING we see and don't see. Before he spoke, and created everything after 6 days earth time, lol, (Don't know why it even took that long, why not create everything in one second?) he says, "Ok, after I have made all of this, I will call it 'good'. But, I know that man is going to fall and I will have to punish them by kicking them out of the garden. Next, things will only get worse, so I'll have to flood the earth and wipe everyone out except for a few people and some animals. They will rebuild and begin killing other animals I have made as sacrifices to me which will help things for them, but then they will come together and build something that will make me have to separate them again by changing their languages. A couple of cities will get really bad, then I'll have to kill all of them as well. I will choose a certain people to follow me, and they won't really follow me. Then I will have to eventually come down there myself and die as one of them to finally fix things. After that, I will come back and take true believers with me and destroy the majority of them (wide is the way to destruction, narrow is the way to life). Ok, sounds like a good plan. Let there be light!"

I mean, if the end game is for us to live with him, why not just put us there in heaven with him right now? Why do we have to come here?

reply to post by Hydroman


God himself didn't come to the earth and die. His Son did. The Trinity doctrine has confused the issue, but Jesus was the Word of God in the flesh, not God himself (though, the distinction is rather vague).

I recently preached on the topic of why mankind was created just to sin. God created people to know, love, and serve him.
Did Adam and Eve know God? Sort of...they knew him in the sort of way you know me, but they didn't know much more than that. They didn't know his great love, or his grace, or his sovereignty, or his righteousness.
Did Adam and Eve love God? Maybe...but, if they did, it wasn't a very profound love, considering how little they knew him. If they had been made to "love" God without choosing to, that would have been coercion. Coercion is not love.
Did Adam and Eve serve God? No...and why would they, they didn't know or love him. They served a talking snake before God.

Many of the events described in the Old Testament, from the flood to Sodom and Gomorrah to the nation of Israel and its regulations to Jonah spending 3 days in a rather bloated fish, were symbolic of the Savior that was to come and the judgment of the world to come after him. All the sin and death that has followed from Adam and Eve's disobedience will disappear once the whole world is reconciled to God through the victory of his Son. Only then will we all truly know, love, and serve God.

Originally posted by Hydroman
We are told that the christian god has sent his only son, who was an innocent person, to die for our evil deeds so that we can be forgiven by him. If we don't accept this free gift of salvation, we will be punished for eternity.

We are told that we can accept this FREE gift of salvation by asking him for it.

Fine, I'll take this free gift.

Guess I get to live in heaven now? That wasn't hard.

Being a free gift, I shouldn't have to do anything to receive it but ask for it. If I have to work for it, it is no longer a free gift. If I have to do anything else to receive it or to keep it, it is no longer free.

So again, sure, I'll take this free gift since it has been offered to me many times.

Wow look at you! NICE!!! You're getting it! See that wasn't hard. You exercised your faith. It's like you made a call to the higher power. Now you're gonna be shocked at what happened next when he comes to answer. Everyone always is. My suggestion, don't get wrapped up in any details or specifics. All you have to do now is wait and watch. I'm sure you're still very skeptical but you're in for some bizarre events that for sure.

reply to post by r2d246


Do you not recognize sarcasm when you see it?

reply to post by Hydroman

Look at this way: Before god created anything, he was, wherever he was, doing whatever he did, then came up with an idea. His idea was to, well, create EVERYTHING we see and don't see. Before he spoke, and created everything after 6 days earth time, lol, (Don't know why it even took that long, why not create everything in one second?) he says, "Ok, after I have made all of this, I will call it 'good'. But, I know that man is going to fall and I will have to punish them by kicking them out of the garden. Next, things will only get worse, so I'll have to flood the earth and wipe everyone out except for a few people and some animals. They will rebuild and begin killing other animals I have made as sacrifices to me which will help things for them, but then they will come together and build something that will make me have to separate them again by changing their languages. A couple of cities will get really bad, then I'll have to kill all of them as well. I will choose a certain people to follow me, and they won't really follow me. Then I will have to eventually come down there myself and die as one of them to finally fix things. After that, I will come back and take true believers with me and destroy the majority of them (wide is the way to destruction, narrow is the way to life). Ok, sounds like a good plan. Let there be light!"

Wow, that really sounds like the sort of fellow I can trust with my soul.

Originally posted by r2d246

Originally posted by Hydroman
We are told that the christian god has sent his only son, who was an innocent person, to die for our evil deeds so that we can be forgiven by him. If we don't accept this free gift of salvation, we will be punished for eternity.

We are told that we can accept this FREE gift of salvation by asking him for it.

Fine, I'll take this free gift.

Guess I get to live in heaven now? That wasn't hard.

Being a free gift, I shouldn't have to do anything to receive it but ask for it. If I have to work for it, it is no longer a free gift. If I have to do anything else to receive it or to keep it, it is no longer free.

So again, sure, I'll take this free gift since it has been offered to me many times.

Wow look at you! NICE!!! You're getting it! See that wasn't hard. You exercised your faith. It's like you made a call to the higher power. Now you're gonna be shocked at what happened next when he comes to answer. Everyone always is. My suggestion, don't get wrapped up in any details or specifics. All you have to do now is wait and watch. I'm sure you're still very skeptical but you're in for some bizarre events that for sure.

Well, I've done this same thing many times in the past as well when I was a believer....

reply to post by Hydroman


If you were a believer once, but not anymore, that suggests that you were never truly a believer...it's very difficult to let go of beliefs, because it's difficult to change who you are.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Hydroman

 

If you were a believer once, but not anymore, that suggests that you were never truly a believer...it's very difficult to let go of beliefs, because it's difficult to change who you are.

I've been told that before. I wonder why this god tricked me? He allowed me to travel over seas to other countries, and leave my family behind, to live with and speak to drug addicts about him, even while they were doing drugs in the streets, and that was dangerous! Why did he let me do that?

Jeeez, I probably could have gotten an earlier start in my career if he hadn't let me do that, thinking I was truly a believer.

reply to post by Hydroman


Maybe because the Christian god doesn't really exist?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Maybe because the Christian god doesn't really exist?

Hmmm, inquiring minds want to know.

reply to post by PuterMan

Thanks for the laugh. Complete and utter nonsense. Wikipedia twisting things to suit all as usual.##You cannot be an atheist and still say the there might be a Deity.

Thank you for demonstrating your understanding of the subject. An agnostic atheist believes there is no higher power, but admits to not knowing for a fact.

Interesting post.

Exactly how did you accept the free gift?
Did you say the sinner's prayer, perhaps with a preacher on TV?
Or is your opening post a kind of public admission that you've accepted Jesus?
Are you an Atheist for Jesus, similar to the Jews for Jesus?

As far as I recall you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart to get saved and get the gift.
I suppose you've got to kinda believe to be prompted to confess it.

Some groups offer free baptisms too, and believe that baptism is part of salvation.
Try the International Church of Christ, you can get baptized in anything from a few hours to a week.

Many other faiths also have free practices at their core.
The Islamic admission of faith is free.

Chanting the Hare Krishna mantra is totally free, so you can start chanting: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

The cash-strapped atheist can also get free vegetarian meals after their lectures.

So, many other faiths have free things to try for the atheist.
That is unless the atheist in question has adopted the "spiritual racism" of fundamentalist Christianity, and he will only try their free salvation, which means he's really no longer an atheist, but a Christian convert.