Have Atheists Given Up Here?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It seems that despite the choice of atheism, people are still being merely religious. To switch one ideal (God) for another (no God), and to fight for that ideal is not being any different than any of our theistic brothers and sisters.

It's weird how we don't believe there is a such thing as a God yet we like to argue over it anyways. And we feel we must justify our convictions by making others feel stupid for believing differently. That's religion for you.

If no wars were fought over religion, if religious people weren't blowing themselves and others up, if religious people weren't attempting to force their beliefs on others, if religious people weren't attempting to retard their and others children by rejecting science, you might have a point.

But the fact is they do all of these things in the name of their God/s, and for many people that's a big concern.

It's great how religion has now become a dirty word, one the religious throw at others in an attempt to belittle and dismiss people with merely different world-views. They don't see how badly this looks.

And BTW, you seem to think you're neither a theist nor an atheist. This is impossible, you either believe in god or you don't.

P.S if you consider yourself agnostic, guess what, you're an atheist!

reply to post by Prezbo369


I believe there is an explanation for everything also, but I believe many of those explanations are incomprehensible by us at the current time, and therefore fall into the realm of the supernatural.

How do we know the person 3 cars over is staring at us? How did my mother always know when to call me? How did the person I was just talking about 5 minutes ago, who hasn't visited my office in months, happen to walk up while I was discussing her? Why does prayer or meditation make us feel better, and how do you explain the clarity that comes from it? What is love? The love that isn't familial, and isn't lust, but is true, unconditional love. Where does it stem from, and what is the motivation for it? For that matter, what is charity? Why do humans feel compelled to help the weakest among us? It doesn't help the species, and it doesn't provide any direct feedback, so why is there an emotion tied to charity?

I'm not a fan of any religion, but I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to the universe.

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by Wonders

 

But science is not people just saying things, and expecting people to believe them without evidence.

The scientific process...

Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results

You forgot "Insert fraudulent data to support your hypothesis"

False positives: fraud and misconduct are threatening scientific research

Don't jump down my throat, I'm a scientist, but I just wanted to point out that scientists are fallible people, too, and blindly following science is no better than what you dismiss for people of faith.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

So, you are saying that the digital flying unicorn is more efficient than god? What are you saying, besides a bunch of bs?
Actually, it is pretty accurate. God is manmade, and only a select few know how it really works(like wifi). That is a really good point actually, thank you. And to think, I thought you were actually being religious, not sarcastic, or just an idiot.

Originally posted by darkhorserider
How do we know the person 3 cars over is staring at us?

'We' don't, unless you're saying you have a mild type of spidey sense? What about the vast amount of times where someone was looking at you and you didn't happen to glance in their direction?

How did my mother always know when to call me?

She didn't, mothers tend to call their offspring......a lot. What about all the times she called but you weren't home/unable to answer, or called when you didn't need her but you still had a nice chat anyway?

How did the person I was just talking about 5 minutes ago, who hasn't visited my office in months, happen to walk up while I was discussing her?

Coincidence, unless this happens everytime you talk about anyone you know, in which case you might indeed have a superpower like spidey sence.......or you just think about random people a tad too much.

Why does prayer or meditation make us feel better, and how do you explain the clarity that comes from it?

Prayer/meditation does nothing except make you feel great, just like masturbation. And the clarity? ever had pillow talk? ever completely bared your soul to someone after joining in the act of love?

What is love? The love that isn't familial, and isn't lust, but is true, unconditional love. Where does it stem from, and what is the motivation for it?

Love is subjective, but generally its the bonding of two people due to the same chemicals and impulses that drive our sexuality and paternal urges. I'm always reminded of the Shingleback Lizard, it mates for life and will refuse to abandon its mate for many many days (sometimes leading to death by exposure/dehydration) after it was crushed by a passing truck. Same goes for dogs (and to a lesser extent cats) not leaving their masters corpse, its not unique to humans and its not a supernatural power.

For that matter, what is charity? Why do humans feel compelled to help the weakest among us? It doesn't help the species, and it doesn't provide any direct feedback, so why is there an emotion tied to charity?

Empathy, it stems from our time over the past few hundred thousand years living as pack animals.

I'm not a fan of any religion, but I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to the universe.

Yep you're an atheist, embrace it.

See, no superpowers required.

Yep, I've given up for now.
Ignorance prevails once again!

Originally posted by jiggerj
LOL I noticed a few recent threads of religious fanatics with no Atheists arguing their point. Have we given up? Are these zealots too far gone to be saved from looking foolish?

I have a question for them. Oh, I know there's no getting through to them, but I'd love to see their responses.

First, a little story: God is riding on a flying unicorn to get to the pots of gold at the end of rainbows before the Leprechauns can snatch them up and hide the gold in a dragon's lair.

Question: Which character(s) in that story is real, and which ones aren't real. On those you claim to be unreal, please prove it. Thanks!

You atheists sound a lot like religious people trying to push your views on everyone else.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Most of the time it's like arguing with a toddler putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU", with ridiculous counter arguments, a complete absence of logic and a frustrating ignorance of anything scientific.

What's the point, there's always going to be stupid people on the internet.

edit on 14-11-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

I'm not religious, but why do you think you come off as acting any different?

reply to post by jiggerj


Theyre too far gone. Save yourself. To hell with them

I've quit opposing the religious because it has the appeal of picking my nose and eating it. Religion is on it's way out but many with strong religious beliefs could have serious mental problems, as things develop over the next four years. Basically, they are just too dumb to know better and they will also get past their religious stage and maybe even in this lifetime. Let's leave them alone because they have enough problems trying to live their lives based on bull#.

Originally posted by rollsthepaul
I've quit opposing the religious because it has the appeal of picking my nose and eating it. Religion is on it's way out but many with strong religious beliefs could have serious mental problems, as things develop over the next four years. Basically, they are just too dumb to know better and they will also get past their religious stage and maybe even in this lifetime. Let's leave them alone because they have enough problems trying to live their lives based on bull#.

That'd be nice, but unfortunately things like this are happening right now and by holding a mirror to theists it might be possible to speed that process up a jot,

Originally posted by Prezbo369
That'd be nice, but unfortunately things like this are happening right now and by holding a mirror to theists it might be possible to speed that process up a jot,

I wouldn't be so sure that your side presents particularly palatable alternative views, though.

“Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them”

Sam Harris, The End of Faith, pp.52-53.

reply to post by WorShip


You seem to have an awfully skewed perception of "religious" people! Yes, there are some who go completely crazy over their beliefs, but you are mistaken if you honestly believe that all religious people live in a "fantasy land", forsaking this world for dreams of Armageddon!

You say that religious folks are useless and don't contribute to modern society and ignore technology, relationships and self (your words). Whether you wish to believe it or not (personally I don't care what you believe) there are religious people in all walks of life contributing to every part of modern human life- science, medicine, technology, education, manufacturing, the list goes on and on.

If you don't choose to believe in any sort of religion that is your business, but if you honestly believe that people who are religious are useless and don't contribute to society then it is YOU who are living in a "fantasy land".
Enjoy yourself- it's your right to live there!

reply to post by nixie_nox


That's what it's alwasy come down to for me.

If you are comfortable and stable in your faith, than you'd NEVER go all zealous on somebody else. You'd just shut the hell up and be content that YOU knew what was going on.

~Tenth

reply to post by adjensen

“Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them”

Sam Harris, The End of Faith, pp.52-53.

His essay "Response to Controversy" also clarified the context of the apparently troubling passage, which was that he was referring to very specific cases like that of the religiously motivated terrorist, where the attempt to kill a murderous terrorist would essentially constitute killing someone for a belief they hold, namely the belief that unbelievers of their particular faith should be killed.[18]
Wikipedia

I haven't read the book, but I read the synopsis. It did not receive ringing endorsement. But think about it for a while. This sort of killing is already taking place, (war on terror, drone assassinations, etc, fanatic West Bank settler movement, etc. ) What's the difference between the various cases?

Political cover by the people with the biggest guns. Is it okay for the U.S. to kill Taliban for being Taliban? Is it okay for Israel to kill Hamas for being Hamas? Is it okay for the U.S. to pay and equip radical religious extremists to bring down the government of Syria, while at the same time killing suspected radical religious extremists in Yemen and Somalia?

These are not hypothetical, they are daily occurrences. Selective political cover. Some is allowed to occur with impunity, others brutally crushed.

Why do the Jews get to settle in Palestine by killing and driving out Palestinians, in violation of every international law? Religious fanaticism concerning some "chosen people", who according to their own religion are more human than other humans. Political cover because of a perceived majority demographic in the U.S. has bought into the same unsupportable religious notions.

Do you not see a problem here?

Should a religion that divides the world into fully human v not quite human be tolerated? It should be condemned from every quarter, laughed to scorn. Will it be? Not many people would go so far as to condone killing people for their beliefs, but for crying out loud, they should definitely not be rewarded and given political cover!

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by adjensen

“Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them”

Sam Harris, The End of Faith, pp.52-53.

I haven't read the book, but I read the synopsis. It did not receive ringing endorsement. But think about it for a while. This sort of killing is already taking place, (war on terror, drone assassinations, etc, fanatic West Bank settler movement, etc. ) What's the difference between the various cases?

Read that quote again. This is the author of The Moral Landscape, which professes to demonstrate what a scientific morality is, saying that such a morality can justify people being killed, not for their actions, but for their beliefs, or what their beliefs appear to be.

His apologetics for this morality (which he also uses to justify torture) aside, Harris is hailed as one of the philosophical leaders of the new secularism now on the rise in much of the world. If you don't think that statement is one of the most frightening things a public figure has said in recent memory, you don't understand it.

reply to post by adjensen

His apologetics for this morality (which he also uses to justify torture) aside, Harris is hailed as one of the philosophical leaders of the new secularism now on the rise in much of the world. If you don't think that statement is one of the most frightening things a public figure has said in recent memory, you don't understand it.

I've never read anything by Harris. I've got no idea of how many people follow him. What I'm saying is that the killing is happening, and people, especially fundamentalist Christian Dispensationalists think that it is just fine, as long as it's "those others" being killed.

I don't say kill people for their unsupportable beliefs, I say laugh them to scorn and don't promote them into positions of power and influence. Radical religious belief becomes very dangerous when it involves violent political action.

Is there some reason that Humanists must be lumped together as if they all followed the same leader?

Originally posted by adjensen

I wouldn't be so sure that your side presents particularly palatable alternative views, though.

I'm not on any side, I'm just not on your side....

Originally posted by pthena
Is there some reason that Humanists must be lumped together as if they all followed the same leader?

If the current moral standards are to be replaced by scientific and reasoned morality, it is people like Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris who will provide such a framework, so I would suggest you educate yourself on what they propose. I personally don't have an issue with reasoned morality on a personal level, I just see the inherent problem with it when applied to a society and, as an historian, can point to unmitigated disasters in the human condition whenever it has been tried.

Unlike the instances that you cite of fringe individuals attacking others who disagree with them (and usually over things that have absolutely nothing to do with beliefs,) this is viewed to be the normal, civil reaction to various "undesirable" elements in society. It's Sharia justice, just moral judges like Harris, rather than "Allah," at the helm.

Whether you "follow" him or not, Harris and his theories are closer to mainstream thinking than you might imagine.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It seems that despite the choice of atheism, people are still being merely religious. To switch one ideal (God) for another (no God), and to fight for that ideal is not being any different than any of our theistic brothers and sisters.

It's weird how we don't believe there is a such thing as a God yet we like to argue over it anyways. And we feel we must justify our convictions by making others feel stupid for believing differently. That's religion for you.

Exactly. I, as an atheist, see attacks on both sides. I saw christians trying to convert atheists, and atheists trying to destroy, as the OP did, christians (because these atheist don't know what else to do). This is childish. I have both hard-core atheist and understanding christians friends, a middle point, a higher degree of acceptance from both sides, IS POSSIBLE.

It is not really about religion, it is about sides. Humans pick a side because they are divided.
Divison makes conflict possible.
When you feel separate you will have to fight because you believe you can be destroyed by the other.
Realize oneness and you will not have to fight any more.