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Have Atheists Given Up Here?

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posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Precisely.




posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


i don't actually argue with my daughter about her imaginary friend, just as i don't argue with people based on their religion unless they ask for it, like the thread the other day, show me this in the bible and i will change my fate, well you asked we show and you deny with out evidence or proof just simple shake of the head, oh no that wont work give me more reasons. I was using arguing with a child as a reference to what it like to talk to these type of people. I have no issues with people that have faith in a higher power and i never bash anybody that isn't trying to cram it down my throat. Live and let live, but if you ask for something and its given to you and you simple just brush it off then yeah, I may as well be talking to a three year old or a wall for that matter.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Arguing and fighting, conflict in general, all stem from feeling incomplete in oneself. People feel incomplete so join a group, then there are many groups with different outlooks and then they compete. If they feel they have won they feel good for a while which feels a bit like completeness. But it does not last.
If you don't join a group (atheists are a group with a banner) and stay neutral - be nothing - you fit in anywhere.
edit on 15-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by adjensen


If the current moral standards are to be replaced by scientific and reasoned morality, it is people like Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris who will provide such a framework, so I would suggest you educate yourself on what they propose.

Right. I just read some more of his positions, such as "pre-emptive bombing of Iran". Strange, that doesn't quite fit in with his stated principles!

He's got some very glaring blind spots of his own (Islamaphobia, segregation of Jewish suffering as more special than human suffering, bias toward Western values but Eastern spirituality, etc.).

Science really should take a back seat when it comes to morality, defer to History and other humanities.

I suspect Harris wants to rely on brain scans to measure "well-being" because he doesn't trust people to simply say what makes them happy. If a Muslim girl says that she likes wearing a veil, as many do, she doesn't know what's good for her, Harris might say. Maybe she doesn't, but magnetic resonance imaging won't help us resolve these sorts of issues.

When scientists venture into the moral realm, they should not claim that their investigations of what is yield special insights into what should be. I realize I'm asking a lot of scientists—and secularists—to be humble when religious and political zealots like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin are so bloated with self-righteousness. This asymmetry recalls Yeats's famous line from his poem "The Second Coming": "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." But if we all become zealots, we're really in trouble.

Be wary of the righteous rationalist: We should reject Sam Harris's claim that science can be a moral guidepost



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by smashdem

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
I have one for you.

There is a digital flying unicorn connection for your computer that is 100,000 times faster than wifi and all you need to do is hit F7 three times to get connected. As for God, compare Him to wifi. We can't see it and most of us don't know how the protocol works, yet we have faith it is there connecting us to the hub because it is evident. Not only this, but we can demonstrate the fact by the wireless connection we get on our laptops. Compare this to the believer's connection to God. The connection is obvious and the results speak for themselves. History demonstrates what is unseen and the signs that God is there are all around us if we are properly connected. The signal is always good and anyone with faith can attest to what is received.

The password is FAITH and the SSID is JESUS.

edit on 14-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

So, you are saying that the digital flying unicorn is more efficient than god? What are you saying, besides a bunch of bs?
Actually, it is pretty accurate. God is manmade, and only a select few know how it really works(like wifi). That is a really good point actually, thank you. And to think, I thought you were actually being religious, not sarcastic, or just an idiot.
edit on 15-11-2012 by smashdem because: (no reason given)


Not at all. One is an obvious fallacy and the other is evident, yet unseen.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by nixie_nox
 


That's what it's alwasy come down to for me.

If you are comfortable and stable in your faith, than you'd NEVER go all zealous on somebody else. You'd just shut the hell up and be content that YOU knew what was going on.

~Tenth


Wrong, we're commanded to preach the word to all the world, that is a christian's mandate. It has nothing to do with being firm in our faith, it has to do what our God Jesus the Christ commands us, even if it costs us our lives or prison time. We are the watchmen, if we do not cry out to you of your immenent doom, then your blood is on our hands for saying nothing. Albeit it we are not commanded to beat the message into your brains, and i have no qualms allowing someone to perish when they have made their choice. We sleep in the beds we make.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Why should atheists be in the religion and faith section?

To try to destroy man's hope?

Do atheists have anything better to do than to justify their atheism to believers?

We do not care if you are an atheist, as you do not care to come to know religion. You have only an idea given to you by your weak human sight.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by swan001


Told ya you are inclined in attacking the Christian community. And you told me you were objective... I do not see how your OP is not offensive for this christian community. We are now trying to wage a war: the World has enough of that. The goal of ATS is to unite to find truth, not provoke wars.


No no no, I am objective when discussing religion with those that use their minds. The fanatics are a whole different animal.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by r2d246
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Why are you so bitter? What did religious people do to you, perhaps other than have a desire to exercise a fundimental aspect of human existence which is spirituality.

Sounds like your looking to cause a fight? Why though? Just cuz someone's opinion is different than yours about where we came from?

Maybe next time you see a zealot talking about there faith, try and learn all you can from it, rather than judging, feeling bitter, feeling offended because someone has there own opinion, and happens to live and think different than you do.




I might respond to this in another thread. Tired now.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It seems that despite the choice of atheism, people are still being merely religious. To switch one ideal (God) for another (no God), and to fight for that ideal is not being any different than any of our theistic brothers and sisters.

It's weird how we don't believe there is a such thing as a God yet we like to argue over it anyways. And we feel we must justify our convictions by making others feel stupid for believing differently. That's religion for you.


If no wars were fought over religion, if religious people weren't blowing themselves and others up, if religious people weren't attempting to force their beliefs on others, if religious people weren't attempting to retard their and others children by rejecting science, you might have a point.

But the fact is they do all of these things in the name of their God/s, and for many people that's a big concern.

It's great how religion has now become a dirty word, one the religious throw at others in an attempt to belittle and dismiss people with merely different world-views. They don't see how badly this looks.

And BTW, you seem to think you're neither a theist nor an atheist. This is impossible, you either believe in god or you don't.

P.S if you consider yourself agnostic, guess what, you're an atheist!



You can call me whatever you want if that is your prerogative, but I know what I am not more so than what I am. I am not an atheist. If I accept the label 'atheist' I am immediately bestowed with all baggage that word comes with. It's a label Christians once had—more than enough reason to refuse the label in the first place.

Atheist means (from the greek word atheos) 'without God.' How can one be without something that never existed in the first place? It boggles my mind.

Secondly, arguing about something that doesn't exist is absurd, for there is no point. Aren't we supposed to free ourselves from such dogmatism?

Third, God does exist—at the very least, or the very most, as a word, an ideal and a concept. To deny that is self-deception.

Fourth, to denounce God, which any honest atheist should realize is an ideal, and immediately turn around and put faith in another ideal—namely 'no god'—is contradictory. In this case, if you are an atheist, you are no different than a theist. Same goes for agnosticism. To excuse one faith for another faith—that faith being 'we cannot know'—is no different.

Fifth, the only difference between an atheist and a theist is the time-period in which they cherry pick their doctrines. A reliance is put on the credibility of their chosen literature's authors, rather than examine the evidence themselves. This is a completely religious motivation known as faith.

People kill, fight, and argue over their ideals—their Gods. The atheist is no different. Why not continue further and denounce atheism? Why not denounce any 'ism' and forge your own?


edit on 15-11-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


I would rather just admit that I have faith, why does that seem a bad thing. All the more merit to he who had it right when others told him he was wrong.

I just don't understand why atheists take offense when they are in the faith forum:/



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


I would rather just admit that I have faith, why does that seem a bad thing. All the more merit to he who had it right when others told him he was wrong.

I just don't understand why atheists take offense when they are in the faith forum:/


Agreed. It's because of their faith they post here. For some reason, they argue to justify it.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Yet I still see a difference. That the faithful are justified by God in their faith, but atheists, in a vain faith can only justify themselves.

"for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through redemtion that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God sent forth as propitiation by His Blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness. Because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, That He might be the just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

---Romans 3:23---3:26

Therefore, faith in God has benefit and justification, not by the man who proclaims his faith, but by God, Who gives man relentless faith in Him. But the atheist justifies only the belief formed by His own thought.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Yet I still see a difference. That the faithful are justified by God in their faith, but atheists, in a vain faith can only justify themselves.

"for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through redemtion that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God sent forth as propitiation by His Blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness. Because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, That He might be the just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

---Romans 3:23---3:26

Therefore, faith in God has benefit and justification, not by the man who proclaims his faith, but by God, Who gives man relentless faith in Him. But the atheist justifies only the belief formed by His own thought.


Not necessarily. The ideal in which one finds faith differs little. Unless one invents his own, he is willingly putting credibility on one who sold him the ideal to begin with, rather than on himself.

ETA I could find a quote from any book to illustrate my point and it would be just as valid as yours.
edit on 15-11-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by Prezbo369
 


HAHA! I love the responses, and I agree with them about 90% of the way, but I still believe there is an an aspect of spirituality that has not yet been explained. A girl I dated in high school saw her father die, but she was all the way across town. She was 4 years old, she had the vision of her father being crushed, and she went and told her mother, and as her mother was telling her not to worry, daddy is ok, the phone rang, and her father had been crushed.

There are also supernatural things like The Spooklight that have not been explained despite exhaustive debunking experts, TV shows, scientists, and 100s of 1000s of witnesses. I've seen it myself many times, interacted with it, even lucky enough to show it to my wife on our first try. It just isn't explainable with the science we have. In that same area, I also saw a transparent woman in a flowing robe walk to the side of the road, wait, and then step out in front of my car! We swerved, spun, basically crashed, but luckily didn't hit anything, but there wasn't a woman. Nothing there. Wasn't my eyes playing tricks, because my passenger saw her and flinched too! We should have smashed her.

There are also the things we just know. Our instincts. Our spidey senses. Our non-verbal communication. Some of it may be biologically ingrained, but some of it isn't. Predatory cats have even been scientifically proven to have precognition. It isn't just reading minute movements, it is actually knowing something, without stimulation, just prior to it happening.

Most importantly though, I feel, and I know, and I communicate with an entity that lives outside the physical realm. I have had internal conversations with this spiritual entity. Back and forth conversations, but it wasn't voices in my head, and it wasn't communicated the way I would have an internal conversation, it was me formulating a question, and before I could get the words organized in my head, before I ever knew my own question, I already knew the answer, and it wasn't an answer I could have thought up on my own, nor one I even agreed with. It was news I didn't want to accept.

For me, the spiritual creator is real, and our purpose here on this earth is to experience everything the flesh has to offer. Experience friendships, and love, and pain, and trauma, and emptiness, and fullness, and hope, and despair, and empowerment, and helplessness. We are here to fill our spiritual being with experiences and evolve it to another level so we can better exist in the spirit world.

So, I do believe in a theology, but I suppose it is my own theology and doesn't match any particular religion. I am an a-religion, not an a-theist. I believe religion is a trap and a distraction and it separates us from our creator and enslaves us in the words and interpretations of other humans instead of evolving our own spirituality. Religion serves as a substitute for other addictions such as alcoholism or lust or greed, but it does not solve any problems, it just creates an addiction that might be more physically healthy and socially acceptable, but it is just as damaging spiritually as any of the others.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


I bought nothing, sir, faith is the greatest of all gifts. and in return I offer to God my soul, as I had done in my youth even before I could read. I said a curse word and I felt the presence of God showing sadness for what I had done.
Jesus died for me, so by faith I shall die for Jesus.

Do you think that you could die for what you have faith in?

please allow me to ask you a small personal question, sir: What is "number one" in your life, rather, from what do you take the most joy and happiness?



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by backcase
 


Why is faith the greatest gift, and how did you feel the presence of God? How is that meaningful to anyone but yourself?

Personal experiences, that can be interpreted in many ways, are nothing but personal experiences. You have decided on your own interpretation, it doesn't mean that interpretation is right, or that God exists.



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Has not everything been written and perceived through personal experience?

Look at the spirit of your post and tell me that you are one who experiences happiness without God. As the man I was speaking to said, it is an act of faith to not believe in God, it is an act of faith to believe in the big bang theory, but the difference is that those in the Faith of God admit to it as faith.

and my faith stands so strong, to me it stands as fact. because I know, and continue to, I see, and I continue too, I believe, and I continue to, I speak of God and I will continue until the very last word before I breathe my last breath in the Presence of God.

But if you do not believe then deny God and you will wish you had not continued to.
The Sun shines on all men, not just me. I do not hold the only soul, but many do.
That soul has the fingerprint of God on it and His embrace remains.
edit on 15-11-2012 by backcase because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2012 @ 11:39 PM
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I think another thing that seems to get forgotten is that this site is Above Top Secret – a conspiracy forum and not bible-thumpers.com (for example)

If someone posts something here it has to be in the expectation that somebody is going to comment on it and so if a person of faith posts here they have to be ready for negative comments or even laughter and its the negative commenter’s that are using this site as it was meant to be used



posted on Nov, 16 2012 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by backcase
Has not everything been written and perceived through personal experience?


No, this debate mentions the scientific method a couple of times. That is knowledge perceived from experimentation that can be repeated and tested, personal experience of the type you are referring to is not testable and repeatable. It proves nothing.

For example if the Bible was about a creature called Knobby coming to save us all you'd be a knobbest. You see it's all perception, and what you choose to believe and accept. You can't prove God, or Knobby, from some kind of abstract personal experience that only means something to you.


Look at the spirit of your post and tell me that you are one who experiences happiness without God. As the man I was speaking to said, it is an act of faith to not believe in God, it is an act of faith to believe in the big bang theory, but the difference is that those in the Faith of God admit to it as faith.


I completely disagree. If you can't feel happiness without God then it's not me that has the problem. People use many crutches to replace what's missing, alcohol, drugs, religion.


and my faith stands so strong, to me it stands as fact. because I know, and continue to, I see, and I continue too, I believe, and I continue to, I speak of God and I will continue until the very last word before I breathe my last breath in the Presence of God.


Great but again that is your belief and only your belief, it proves nothing to anyone else. Nothing wrong with having that belief until you try act like you're superior because of it. Humility is the major part of all religions.

I have nothing against religion, I am not an atheist. I have read the Bible many times, I have three copies. There is a lot can be learned from it. I do have a problem though with the silly nonsense some so called "Christians" claim. Especially the stupid anti-science nonsense. It's probably an indication of the state of modern education.


But if you do not believe then deny God and you will wish you had not continued to. The Sun shines on all men, not just me. I do not hold the only soul, but many do. That soul has the fingerprint of God on it and His embrace remains.


I never said I didn't. But you seem to fail to even understand you own religion. Who are you to judge me? Who are you to act like an expert on what God thinks or is going to do? If you want to play that game, then it's a fact that most "Christians" will not be going where they think they are, if the Bible is true.

BTW science made your computer.

edit on 11/16/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)









 
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