I will follow Jesus , will you follow Mahdi ?

Originally posted by Akragon
Wouldn't that mean Jesus was not "equal" to the Father... as he said?

That is kind of how I look at it ... but the main stream Christian faiths believe that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all equal. 'If you have seen Me, you have seen The Father'. They say they are equal. Me .. well ... I dunno ... I guess I'll find out when I'm dead.

I don't really understand why a "christian" would follow a muslim in any case...

Yep. That's my point. Christians have 'God Incarnate'. Muslims have a muslim dude 'Mahdi' who fits the Christian description of AntiChrist. No Christian who believes in the Incarnation (which is a majority of Christianity) is going to give up 'God Incarnate' to follow the anti-christ.

The premise in the OP seems to be comming from a bargining position... Almost as if the OP was asking Christians to follow another set of scripture simply because he agrees with theirs...

I don't think the OP ... or any of the muslims posting here .. understand the Christian faith at all. They think that Christians believe Jesus was just a prophet of some kind. When in fact, Christians believe Jesus came down from Heaven .. He is God Incarnate.

Originally posted by logical7
the logic is simple, will you(in general) follow/support mahdi if he is standing up for the right things?

The logic is simple, your mythical Mahdi is NOT standing up for the 'right things' as far as Christians are concerned because your Mahdi doesn't believe that Jesus is God Incarnate. As far as Chrsitians are concerned, your MAHDI denies God. Also, other Muslims here have stated that the Mahdi will help usher in (via violence and war) making the entire world MUSLIM. You want Christians to support a muslim dude who is trying to destroy civilization and christianity? That's absurd.

The other thing is that for muslims there was always just one religion and we believe Jesus pbuh will descend and join the believers in One God.(be it jews, christians or muslims)

Muslims believe that the entire world must be MUSLIM. Your Mahdi dude is supposed to wage war against those who are not Muslims. You are watering down the prophecy and trying to make it sound like Jews, Christians and Muslims will all be equally welcome by this Mahdi fella when in fact that is not the truth about the prophecy. The intent of the Mahdi is to make everyone either Muslim or dead. The intent is to kill off Christianity and Judism.

Jesus pbuh isnt exclusive to a group when he returns.

Jesus started His own church. Matthew 16:18. He placed Peter at it's head. He gave very clear instructions for how He wanted His church on Earth to be run. The belief that Jesus 'came down from Heaven' (scripture quote) and is God Incarnate (more scripture quotes) is indeed exclusive to Christianity. For Muslims to waterdown what Jesus is ... calling him a prophet ... even saying he is a lesser prophet than that mass murdering thief Muhammad ... that tells us all that Muslims dont' understand Jesus at all.

Originally posted by logical7
Qu'ran is not inconsistent,

The Qu'ran is full of inconsistent statements and falsehoods.
1000 Mistakes and Errors in the Qu'ran
Inconsistancies and Scientific Errors in the Qu'ran
Read up and learn.

christians see Jesus pbuh taking sides with Mahdi what will you do?

Jesus, who is GOD HIMSELF, isn't going to 'take sides' with a Muslim human who will try to destroy Christianity.

That's assuming there really is a Mahdi. Considering how much of Islam is just made up .. I highly doubt there actually will be anyone like that anyways.

Originally posted by logical7
Prophet Muhammad pbuh spread the message peacefully for 13years, .

Muhammad was never peaceful. He murdered his political opponents.
He raided caravans and was a thief. He made up stories about being God's favorite.
He ordered mass murder or slavery for those who didn't buy his 'religion'
(which was really a political movement with him in power at the top)

Originally posted by Akragon
I don't actually... just the gospels, and i like gnostic, buddhist, and hindu philosophy as well...

Sounds like me. I dismiss most of the old testament. I read up on the buddhist and hindu philosophies and get some of their monthly magazines. I have tried the buddhist 'middle way' but often it's like fingernails on a chalk board to me. Sometimes right is right and wrong is wrong .. ya' know? I have looked into Islam and find nothing of it of value as far as I'm concerned. It's just a knock off of the other religions at the time .. Christianity, Judism, and Zoroastrianism ... and Muhammad didn't do such a good job when he plagiarized from these other religions. He got a lot of it wrong.

Taking a very positive and affirmative view of things, and trying to reconcile the different religions, from what I've read it appears the Mahdi will be an exceptionally righteous person who will have a special relationship with God. It is conceivable that he will be so righteous that God will allow him to act in a godlike manner. From what I've seen, in all religious texts God has engaged in a human relationship with certain exceptional people. God has even expressed sensitive feelings such as regret and remorse. So if the Mahdi exhibits a behavior towards God that suggests he is God's "peer," this might appear to be blasphemy to some people, when in reality he has permission to do so because of his special righteousness. Perhaps he would have such a relationship to Jesus.

Jesus, on the other hand, is also a very special person, and even in Islam the descriptions of him are even more fantastic than the Mahdi. Jesus's specialness appears to manifest in a different way, fulfilling a different role. Perhaps in the grand order of things Jesus really does have personal permission from God to act in a unique manner much like the Mahdi, except in this case it is to literally act as God, and He (God or Jesus, for all purposes at this point synonymous) lets those who demand to dispute this permission be forsaken from grace -- underwritten by the Holy Ghost.

Back to the Mahdi, again in keeping with the pattern of different roles for Mahdi and Jesus, I don't think Mahdi will be a person who asks people to "follow him." He will be more like a hero, who fights for what he knows is right, and will accomplish great, miraculous, and godlike things because of his righteousness. There will be people who want to follow him, but it will not be something he requires (different role than Jesus), and if they do so I think he will only allow it insofar as it helps achieve practical goals (i.e. I don't think he'll want people to follow him to achieve some kind of personal spiritual salvation). People from different religions (including Islam, maybe even Judaism) will surely want to claim him as their own, but I think he will be concerned with practical solutions to immediate problems. I think he will also see the relationship between secular and religious issues where others may not see it. I think he will do good things that will cause evil people to come out of the woodwork and want to fight him. I think he will not try to expose the dealings that evil people will have with evil spirits (again, different role than Jesus). Instead he will make solutions from a practical and secular perspective. I think that people will oppose him and force physical violent confrontation. I think that even though he will not expose evil spirits, that evil spirits will move people to fight him. Because he is operating on a practical level, it would make sense that the conflict would escalate from an attempt to hurt and kill him into all-out physical war. Jesus would have to come to expose the spiritual evils that are behind the conflict and resolve the misunderstandings of who is right and wrong for all the world to see. Until then, every individual will have to rely on their own conviction to determine what is right and wrong.

So, I hope that makes sense for people.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
Qu'ran is not inconsistent,

The Qu'ran is full of inconsistent statements and falsehoods.
1000 Mistakes and Errors in the Qu'ran
Inconsistancies and Scientific Errors in the Qu'ran
Read up and learn.

christians see Jesus pbuh taking sides with Mahdi what will you do?

Jesus, who is GOD HIMSELF, isn't going to 'take sides' with a Muslim human who will try to destroy Christianity.

That's assuming there really is a Mahdi. Considering how much of Islam is just made up .. I highly doubt there actually will be anyone like that anyways.

why cant you just answer the question, consider it hypothetical and just answer..

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
the logic is simple, will you(in general) follow/support mahdi if he is standing up for the right things?

The logic is simple, your mythical Mahdi is NOT standing up for the 'right things' as far as Christians are concerned because your Mahdi doesn't believe that Jesus is God Incarnate. As far as Chrsitians are concerned, your MAHDI denies God. Also, other Muslims here have stated that the Mahdi will help usher in (via violence and war) making the entire world MUSLIM. You want Christians to support a muslim dude who is trying to destroy civilization and christianity? That's absurd.

The other thing is that for muslims there was always just one religion and we believe Jesus pbuh will descend and join the believers in One God.(be it jews, christians or muslims)

Muslims believe that the entire world must be MUSLIM. Your Mahdi dude is supposed to wage war against those who are not Muslims. You are watering down the prophecy and trying to make it sound like Jews, Christians and Muslims will all be equally welcome by this Mahdi fella when in fact that is not the truth about the prophecy. The intent of the Mahdi is to make everyone either Muslim or dead. The intent is to kill off Christianity and Judism.

Jesus pbuh isnt exclusive to a group when he returns.

Jesus started His own church. Matthew 16:18. He placed Peter at it's head. He gave very clear instructions for how He wanted His church on Earth to be run. The belief that Jesus 'came down from Heaven' (scripture quote) and is God Incarnate (more scripture quotes) is indeed exclusive to Christianity. For Muslims to waterdown what Jesus is ... calling him a prophet ... even saying he is a lesser prophet than that mass murdering thief Muhammad ... that tells us all that Muslims dont' understand Jesus at all.

you are so loud, you only hear yourself!
Your belief is ofcourse dear to you but why you feel scared when its challenged?
And why you tell me what i believe? Or what muslims believe?dont do it. Ask me or get educated.

Lots of Pots calling the Kettles here

"yours is full of holes and mythical creatures... yours is fake and made up... and mine is absolute truth and god"

Originally posted by logical7
why cant you just answer the question, consider it hypothetical and just answer..

Already answered it. MANY TIMES.

Christians will NOT follow any Muslim Mahdi.

1 - Because the Mahdi doesn't exist and won't ever exist.

2 - Because Christians have GOD INCARNATE (Jesus) as part of their religious beliefs. They aren't going to give up following GOD HIMSELF just to go follow some muslims dude.

3 - The prophecy about the Muslim Mahdi says that the Mahdi will use force and war to turn the world Muslim. Christians aren't going to give up Jesus in order to bow to Mecca five times a day and to go on a Haj to worship a meteorite that fell in the Middle East. Christian women aren't going to embrace Sharia law which makes them less of a citizen in the eyes of a court than a man. Christian women aren't going to start wearing those self imposes prisons (head to toe clothing coverings). Christian women are EDUCATED and won't put up with being beaten in the streets by Sharia Morals Police simply because the women are confident and dress as they wish. Christians aren't going to follow some guy who is out to destroy Christianity. Christians aren't going to follow some guy who fits the ANTICHRIST description perfectly.

I've answered that question MANY TIMES.

Originally posted by logical7
you are so loud,

I state facts. Facts are facts.
Learn how to deal with the fact that a woman is smart and can speak and educate men.

Your belief is ofcourse dear to you but why you feel scared when its challenged?

OMG that's funny. I'm definately not challenged by you and I'm definately NOT scared.

And why you tell me what i believe? Or what muslims believe?dont do it. Ask me or get educated.

I've already very well educated on what the Mahdi myth is. YOU were misrepresenting it. YOU were trying to say that as long as someone believes in the 'One God 'then this Mahdi fella is just fine to follow. That's a load of crap. The Mahdi prophecy states very clearly that this Mahdi fella is supposed to arrive and turn the entire world MUSLIM .. and that Jesus will be his sidekick and help out - which of course is absurd. YOU were sugar coating what this Mahdi is supposed to be. So ... to use YOUR words ... DON'T DO IT. Tell the truth about the Mahdi prophecy.

reply to post by logical7

so you dont think its possible that the scripture was from God and then men corrupted it?
Look at OT for christians, they capitalised "son","he","god" "father" maybe even "lamb" in verses which could serve christian theology.
Similarly the jews have put themselves in good light even by making the prophets look bad or putting in what they wish as if God wishes it.
And do you think just like OT, the NT cant be corrupted?

I didn't say that... but let me use the usual Christian arguement here...

IF God is all powerful, don't you think he would be able to keep his word intact in some way/shape/form?

my point was they thought him as their liberator who would be leading them in fight so they believed that someone like that was coming.

Again... no they didn't... They denied Jesus was their Messiah... And are still waiting on their saviour...

is that so? Then how can you say gospels are special and all that you need without ever reading Qur'an?

I've grazed over the Qur'an, specifically the passages that mention Jesus... which hold little to none of his teachings... And the texts of said book were written 600+ years after Jesus lived... i tend to look for the earliest sources of information... Sources that were as close as possible to him...

Jesus called himself "the truth, the life, and the way"... and once one reads the books with his words in them... (which you said you haven't) said person can possibly understand why... unfortunately this isn't always the case as you can see by the state of Christianity in this age.

I have read both, not whole NT but a large part and i enjoy and learn from what Jesus pbuh said and i am amazed at how much his teachings resonate with what Qur'an teaches

Good for you... I haven't noticed many similarities...

Perhaps you might show the readers what you're speaking of?

reply to post by FlyersFan

That is kind of how I look at it ... but the main stream Christian faiths believe that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all equal. 'If you have seen Me, you have seen The Father'. They say they are equal. Me .. well ... I dunno ... I guess I'll find out when I'm dead.

Why wait?

You can find out Right Now!

Straight from the man....

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.


John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by maes2

 

Do you believe Jesus will return to usher in world peace or a new age, and do you believe Jesus will return and only be seen in one place?
Or do you believe Jesus will return, and all men everywhere on Earth will see Him, and He will execute judgement?

I believe Jesus will return for a new age (of peace) in Jerusalem (or somewhere near there !) and everyone will recognize him and his true followers will follow him. it will explain the truth and the false and will enlighten people and somehow he will judge for the alive people but not the judgment of the last judgment day !
he will judge (with God's permission) in the last day judgment for all the humankind especially his followers all through the history.
this is my belief. what is or are the believes in Christianity about arrival ?

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by maes2

 

According to history Mohammed a MURDERER and a FORNICATOR and served his own self interest . What kind of Holy Prophet was that ????????

it depends on the history you are referring to, how about the history that Jews have written about Jesus !

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
why cant you just answer the question, consider it hypothetical and just answer..

Already answered it. MANY TIMES.

Christians will NOT follow any Muslim Mahdi.

1 - Because the Mahdi doesn't exist and won't ever exist.

2 - Because Christians have GOD INCARNATE (Jesus) as part of their religious beliefs. They aren't going to give up following GOD HIMSELF just to go follow some muslims dude.

3 - The prophecy about the Muslim Mahdi says that the Mahdi will use force and war to turn the world Muslim. Christians aren't going to give up Jesus in order to bow to Mecca five times a day and to go on a Haj to worship a meteorite that fell in the Middle East. Christian women aren't going to embrace Sharia law which makes them less of a citizen in the eyes of a court than a man. Christian women aren't going to start wearing those self imposes prisons (head to toe clothing coverings). Christian women are EDUCATED and won't put up with being beaten in the streets by Sharia Morals Police simply because the women are confident and dress as they wish. Christians aren't going to follow some guy who is out to destroy Christianity. Christians aren't going to follow some guy who fits the ANTICHRIST description perfectly.

I've answered that question MANY TIMES.

that wasnt my question, this was

And on the topic a bit different, when
christians see Jesus pbuh taking sides
with Mahdi what will you do? Call both the dudes ACs?

and please try to talk only whats relavent, each post is not an opportunity to show that you dont approve of islam, we all know it loud and clear.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I state facts. Facts are facts.
Learn how to deal with the fact that a
woman is smart and can speak and
educate men.

i know women are smart and can educate men, the Fiqh school i follow is Hanafi, named after Imam Abu Haneefah who got his name from his daughter Haneefah who was a great scholar herself and taught men and he came to be called "father of Haneefah"

OMG that's funny. I'm definately not
challenged by you and I'm definately
NOT scared.

then you could agree to have a discussion rather than mud slinging, thats done by someone scared or ignorant.

The Mahdi prophecy states very clearly
that this Mahdi fella is supposed to
arrive and turn the entire world
MUSLIM .. and that Jesus will be his
sidekick and help out

ya 1st part is true, everyone muslim but again why not? It would be hypocritical of you to object if Jesus pbuh making everyone christian is fine with you.
I used "One God" because "Muslim" wouldnt go down your throat and i dont mean it as you would take it. Anyways too late for that, muslim=one who submits to One True God. At least you would agree that after Jesus' coming all the 3 faiths would become One. two mislead faiths would realise their folly right? Hope all in those faith do, but ofcourse that may not happen.
Now the 2nd part, not side kick, Jesus pbuh is supposted to return to kill AC and establish God's kingdom here, definitely not the role of side kick.

reply to post by logical7

and please try to talk only whats relavent, each post is not an opportunity to show that you dont approve of islam, we all know it loud and clear.

Quoted for truth

reply to post by Akragon

I didn't say that... but let me use the
usual Christian arguement here...
IF God is all powerful, don't you think
he would be able to keep his word
intact in some way/shape/form?

Ofcourse He can! If He wanted.
And the flaw in the arguement is that God is being used as shield.
Jews got many prophets and so the teachings were mainly oral and last was Jesus pbuh. even he dint write the Gospel, just preached orally the supplementary message along with what they already knew and not a new religion or covenant. And you could just imagine how it would be if jews could add to OT the account of Jesus pbuh as they see him.
And what if God had a plan to send a new scripture after NT, then why waste effort to save older ones? Economical you see.

Again... no they didn't... They denied
Jesus was their Messiah... And are still
waiting on their saviour...

yes they did. But ok, my point was just that at least some showed hope that he would overthrow romans but got bitter and then denied because they expected a Messiah that will liberate them by fighting.

I've grazed over the Qur'an,
specifically the passages that mention
Jesus... which hold little to none of his
teachings... And the texts of said book
were written 600+ years after Jesus
lived... i tend to look for the earliest sources of information... Sources that
were as close as possible to him...

it would be odd if you look for his teachings in Quran, it would be like a jew telling that he cant find much about Moses pbuh or his teaching in NT. The teachings are there but not as quotes by Jesus pbuh.
and you are looking for historical records, but if you want his real image you may have to go beyond the cannon, maybe something that never went through the hand of the church. But for me Qur'an clears that up as its God's word telling exactly who Jesus pbuh is.

Good for you... I haven't noticed many
similarities...
Perhaps you might show the readers
what you're speaking of?

i'l try, in next post.

reply to post by Akragon


some similarities in Jesus' pbuh teachings and Quran/Hadiths

(57) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a man who had good seed. His enemy came by night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The man did not allow them to pull up the weeds; he said to them, 'I am afraid that you will go intending to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be plainly visible, and they will be pulled up and burned."

(21) If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour). ( ﻞﺤﻨﻟﺍ ﺓﺭﻮﺳ , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #61)

Matthew5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Muhammad peace be upon him said: Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: "Allah's Apostle said, 'Allah will not be merciful
to those who are not merciful to
mankind.'

Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love
the other, or you will be devoted to
the one and despise the other. You
cannot serve both God and money

Allah puts forth a Parable a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah! but most of them have no knowledge. ( ﺮﻣﺰﻟﺍ ﺓﺭﻮﺳ , Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #29)
many more similarties, but more in the message than just similar words/sentences.