I will follow Jesus , will you follow Mahdi ?

Originally posted by logical7
And on the topic a bit different, when christians see Jesus pbuh taking sides with Mahdi what will you do?

ALREADY ANSWERED. Seriously .. do you even read what is posted?

1 - There will be no Mahdi.

2- Even if there were a Mahdi (the Christian version of ANTICHRIST), Jesus wouldn't 'take sides' with any muslim Mahdi dude. This Mahdi supposedly wants to turn the entire world MUSLIM. Why would Jesus Christ side with someone who wants to destroy His church on Earth? He WOULD NOT. It's absurd to think that Jesus would be subserviant to anyone let alone a Muslim hell bent on the destruction of Christianity.

3 - Christians believe Jesus is GOD INCARNATE. Mahdi would just be a Muslim human being. Therefore, NO CHRISTIAN ANYWHERE would give up following GOD INCARNATE just to follow some Muslim human.

4 - If some human showed up claiming to be Jesus and that human was backing some Mahdi .. then we'd know it wasn't really Jesus. It is NOT POSSIBLE for Jesus to lower Himself like that. He's be a FRAUD and he'd be a helper of the ANTICHRIST. He wouldn't be Jesus.

and please try to talk only whats relavent,

Don't tell me how to post. EVERYTHING I posted was VERY relevant.
You just don't like the facts about Islamic beliefs being presented.
The truth cuts through your sugar coating ..

Originally posted by logical7
then you could agree to have a discussion rather than mud slinging, thats done by someone scared or ignorant.

OMG ... funny guy.
1 - I am not scared. Not even close.
2 - I am not ignorant. Again .. not even close.
3 - Countering your posts with actual FACTS isn't 'mudslinging'. It's just facts. Example ... YOU post that Muhammad was a peaceful guy. I post the FACT that he was a mass murdering thief. You bring up the subject and people will post responding to it.

everyone muslim but again why not?

Because it's a made up mess. Muhammed stole from Christianity, Judism, and Zoroastrianism. He made a mish mash of those religions, added his own misogyny and lust, and then forced it upon people at the point of a sword. Muhammad was a well known caravan thief who murdered his political opponents and treated women like dirt. And you want Christians and Buddhists and Hindus and Athiests to give up their beliefs to turn the calendar back 1500 years and follow THAT? NOT going to happen.

It would be hypocritical of you to object if Jesus pbuh making everyone christian is fine with you.

Jesus is CHRIST. God incarnate. Christian = follower of CHRIST.
I'll follow God incarnate.
If you want, you can follow a murdering politician (Muhammed) who died 1500 years ago.
But I won't be doing that ... EVER.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If some human showed up
claiming to be Jesus and that human
was backing some Mahdi .. then we'd know it wasn't really Jesus. It is NOT
POSSIBLE for Jesus to lower Himself like
that. He's be a FRAUD and he'd be a
helper of the ANTICHRIST. He wouldn't
be Jesus.

finally! thank you!

Don't tell me how to post. EVERYTHING
I posted was VERY relevant.
You just don't like the facts about
Islamic beliefs being presented.
The truth cuts through your sugar
coating ..

ofcourse what Muhammad pbuh did, what muslim women wear, how christian women look and feel godly in hot pants too is all relavent to prove how islam is but unfortunately i have to inform you that its not the topic at hand, your agenda definitely.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Countering your posts with actual
FACTS isn't 'mudslinging'. It's just facts. Example ... YOU post that Muhammad
was a peaceful guy. I post the FACT
that he was a mass murdering thief.
You bring up the subject and people
will post responding to it.

i said peaceful for 1st 13 years just like Jesus pbuh for the 1st coming.
.
You think Muhammad pbuh killed puppy faced innocent jew tribe whose only crime was to plot with pagans to annhilate the muslim neighours when they had a peace treaty with muslims. And if following OT the punishment for that is "kill everything that breathes" and Muhammad pbuh killed the adult men but spared others and took them as slaves. Thats more just.
If you dont agree then in Jesus' pbuh 2nd coming just recommend him the same and let muslims just annhilate the christians.

Because it's a made up mess.
Muhammed stole from Christianity,
Judism, and Zoroastrianism. He made a
mish mash of those religions, added
his own misogyny and lust, and then
forced it upon people at the point of a sword. Muhammad was a well known
caravan thief who murdered his
political opponents and treated
women like dirt.

he told pagans they are wrong, told jews they were wrong to try to kill the Messiah, told christians too that its wrong to make a man as god and One into three. He rejected the leadership of Makkah in exchange of stopping to preach. Looks odd for a man who wanted power, rejecting it and making enemies left and right. He gave women rights and limited wives upto 4(not compulsory 4) when before women were almost treated as cattles and men could have as many wives as they wished. Women argued with the prophet and it was fine, (paul wants women to keep mum in church)
so do you see how educated you are? maybe you should also see the jewish view of Jesus pbuh and compare it with what you were told about Muhammad pbuh, you'l learn how a good person is made into evil by haters. I just hope you have the open minded approach that is necessary, at least the other reader would have it.

reply to post by logical7


And yet you wonder why i haven't bothered with the Quran?

What im hearing sounds exactly like a follower of the OT... which i reject as far as spiritual knowledge is concerned...

Why would i waste my time learning about a person who follows something i already reject?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

And yet you wonder why i haven't bothered with the Quran?

What im hearing sounds exactly like a follower of the OT... which i reject as far as spiritual knowledge is concerned...

Why would i waste my time learning about a person who follows something i already reject?

so you would only agree with the idea of God that you expect him to be like? The message is simple, One God, be good, stand up for whats right even if against oneself, dont bear oppression due to fear of death, give and protect the rights of the weak, dont walk proudly on the earth, when ignorants provoke then say "peace."
what part you think is not fitting to be a good human if all this is done with the awareness of God?

Originally posted by logical7
:The message is simple, One God, be good, stand up for whats right even if against oneself, dont bear oppression due to fear of death, give and protect the rights of the weak, dont walk proudly on the earth, when ignorants provoke then say "peace."

That's a load of bunk. That's NOT what the Mahdi is supposed to do at all. Stop sugar coating.
The purpose of the Mahdi is that he's supposed to make the entire world MUSLIM.
He would destroy Christianity and destroy Judism and destroy Hinduism and Buddhism.
And those that dont convert to Islam will be dead .. and will die miserably.

Islam ... it's not 'be good, stand up for what's right, protect the rights of the weak ... ' :shk:
Example - Islamic Hardliners Announce Fatwa against 14 year old Malala for wanting an education

Your Mahdi is an exact description of a very EVIL antichrist. A wolf in sheeps clothing. People like you claiming he's all good when in fact, in the end, he's just death and destruction. Jesus has no need of teaming up with anyone let alone a false prophet like a Mahdi.

reply to post by logical7

What a mess. I wouldn't even know where to start educating you.
"...puppy faced innocent jew tribe" .... Jeeeze ..
Your sugar coated rhetoric and refusal to admit Islam is misogynistic makes me even more sure that it is NOT of God and that any Mahdi who would try to make the world totally Islamic would be nothing more than a very evil human on a mission from hell.

reply to post by FlyersFan

He(mahdi) would destroy Christianity

Not true! Jesus pbuh would do that, it would be very odd to you but thats what the muslim believe.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

What a mess. I wouldn't even know where to start educating you.
"...puppy faced innocent jew tribe" .... Jeeeze ..
Your sugar coated rhetoric and refusal to admit Islam is misogynistic makes me even more sure that it is NOT of God and that any Mahdi who would try to make the world totally Islamic would be nothing more than a very evil human on a mission from hell.

educating me about my prophet? About my beliefs? What would be your sources? I need your approval to believe? And when you dont like what i say coz it sounds nice then its me who is sugar coating!
.
By the way he is your prophet too, just that you reject him.

Originally posted by logical7
when you dont like what i say coz it sounds nice then its me who is sugar coating!

I don't like what you say because IT IS NOT TRUE.
.

By the way he is your prophet too, just that you reject him

Hell no. Muhammed was no prophet. He was a caravan thief and a politician who murdered his political opponents. He slaughtered and slaughtered. He's no holy man.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

He(mahdi) would destroy Christianity

Not true! Jesus pbuh would do that, it would be very odd to you but thats what the muslim believe

Oh yes it is true! That Mahdi prophecy says that he would turn the entire world Muslim ... and those that don't convert will be dead. That is destroying Christianity .. destroying Buddhism .. destroying Hinduism .. OF COURSE they would be destroyed. Stop sugar coating.

reply to post by FlyersFan


reply to post by logical7


Its pointless bickering back and forth about this... The best thing to do is bust out some scripture to prove your points...

And Logical... i have no issue with what you said... but as FlyersFan also said, many come as wolves in sheeps clothing... Preachng peace and love with no actions to follow means nothing... this happens in the Christian world too... Westborogh comes to mind

IF this Mahdi comes to make the world muslim, he will have a lot of opposition... including myself, on the other hand i wouldn't side with anyone turning the world Christian either...

Honestly if Jesus did return to wreak havoc, he would likely start with his own church... I think Jesus would hand out some serious bitch slaps to many Christians, but this is not the issue at hand...

Time to bust out some scripture you two...

I'd like to see a few things here... Scripture showing Mohammad to be a thief and a murderer... and something showing he will make the world Muslim...

Possibly anything that has to do with that bringing peace as well...

Sorry i don't mean to moderate your thread... but this is just turning into an arguement...

And who needs that?

Originally posted by Akragon
Scripture showing Mohammad to be a thief and a murderer... and something showing he will make the world Muslim...

There is no scripture showing him to be a thief and murderer. His followers wouldn't allow that. HISTORY shows him to be that. And, as even the Muslim here has admitted, the Mahdi wants to make everyone follow THEIR version of God .. which is ISLAM ... which means death to Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc etc.

Frankly, I believe he had a pathological condition. I have a BS in Psychology. I'm not an expert but I dont' think it takes an expert to be able to see it.

Muhammad ordered the massacre of the Jews in 622.
Muhammad ran caravan raids against Meccan caravans.
A sucessful raid of a caravan at Nakhla.
More caravan raids by Muhammad in cahoots with the head of the Aws, Sa'd B. Mu'adh.
The ordered assassination of his political rival al-Nader
The ordered assassination of a poetess Asma bint arwan (of the Aws tribe)
The ordered assassination of political rival Abu Afak of the Khazrajit clan.
The ordered assassination of Kab ibn al-Ashraf (son of banu Nadir)
Muhammad slauthered the Jewish tribe of Nadir and the Jews of Khaybar.
Muhammad slaughtered the Jews of Banu Qurayza
Except the young girls who were kept as sex slaves.
Muhammed ordered the murder of the chief of the jews, Abi 'l Huqayq
Muhammed ordered the torture of Kinana b. al-Rabi.
He massacred and robbed all of Medina.

Its all in history books. Not exactly the kinds of things you would expect from a 'holy man'. More like a meglomaniac politician on a murdering spree against his political opponents .. and a politician who stole money for his campaigns.

For the record ... I believe in a live and let live policy. Secular rule of law. No one religion should be saying that they are going to take over the planet by force and everyone either converts or is killed. As far as I'm concerned, that's a big red warning flag telling everyone that religion is NOT a holy one.

Originally posted by Akragon
... and something showing he will make the world Muslim...

That would be the job of the so-called Mahdi.

Answering Islam

The Islamic messiah, thus, embodies the aspirations of his followers in the restoration of the purity of the Faith which will bring true and uncorrupted guidance to all mankind, creating a just social order and a world free from oppression in which the Islamic revelation will be the norm for all nations.

'Islamic revelation will be the norm for all nations'.
Everyone would be ISLAMIC.

The Mahdi is believed to be a future Muslim world leader who will not only rule over the Islamic world, but also the non-Muslim world as well. The Mahdi is said to lead a world revolution that will establish a new Islamic world order throughout the entire earth:

The Mahdi will establish right and justice in the world and eliminate evil and corruption. He will fight against the enemies of the Muslims who would be victorious. 12

He will reappear on the appointed day, and then he will fight against the forces of evil, lead a world revolution and set up a new world order based on justice, righteousness and virtue…ultimately the righteous will take the world administration in their hands and Islam will be victorious over all the religions. 13

Everyone will would be Islamic.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Mohammad was also a fornicator besides being a common thug , thief , and mass murderer . To assert that he was also a liar would be anticlimactic . The Muslims know history , the very history that the Arab people of his time wrote proves that but' they don't care . When was it that the author of Islam became able to write the truth as an honorable righteous man ? His character after he authored the Quran was the abominable thief . fornicator and mass murderer . By comparison Paul who persecuted Christians to death before God changed him was a changed man for the rest of his life preaching the true Gospel of Jesus . He did no violence nor did he live a life of sin thereafter . One served God the other Satan .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
The Muslims know history , the very history that the Arab people of his time wrote proves that but' they don't care . When was it that the author of Islam became able to write the truth as an honorable righteous man ?.

Kinda explains the 'sugar coating' over the fact that this Mahdi fella is supposed to violently turn the entire world MUSLIM.

Telling lies is approved of in Islam

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

reply to post by FlyersFan

Muhammad ordered the massacre of
the Jews in 622.

as i have said before, they were at war with him by secretly helping the makkans to attack and destroy the muslim community.
Muhammad pbuh was not just a prophet, he was a statesman and a general leading an army, and backstabbers cant be left unpunished.

Muhammad ran caravan raids against
Meccan caravans.

once to get back the goods that meccans had gathered from muslim houses in Makkah and taking to sell them away. and maybe few other times when Meccans broke the peace treaty and it was like a seige(economic sanctions) but prophet Muhammad forgave meccans when he captured Makkah without a fight and no blood was shed.

A sucessful raid of a caravan at
Nakhla.
More caravan raids by Muhammad in
cahoots with the head of the Aws, Sa'd
B. Mu'adh.

those were not caravan raids, they were raids to track enemy tribes who would attack muslims and were part of an anti islamic alliance of meccans, jews and these Najd tribes

The ordered assassination of his political rival al-Nader
The ordered assassination of a
poetess Asma bint arwan (of the Aws
tribe)
The ordered assassination of political
rival Abu Afak of the Khazrajit clan. The ordered assassination of Kab ibn
al-Ashraf (son of banu Nadir)
Muhammad slauthered the Jewish
tribe of Nadir and the Jews of Khaybar.
Muhammad slaughtered the Jews of
Banu Qurayza Except the young girls who were kept
as sex slaves.
Muhammed ordered the murder of the
chief of the jews, Abi 'l Huqayq
Muhammed ordered the torture of
Kinana b. al-Rabi.

these all are acts carried during war with enemies who were actively engaged in trying to eradicate muslims, assasinate the prophet or harm muslims and islam. Isnt defence allowed?
It was never as you want to show it that muslims just attacked and kill because the other party was not muslims. Prophet Muhammad lived with Jews peacefully in medina, till they started showing hostility to outright betayal to treaty, then they were punishned from expulsion to being killed.
The woman you mentioned, declared herself as prophetess and was rallying people to attack muslims.

He massacred and robbed all of
Medina.

What??! you must have copied this all from somewhere, he was invited to Madina by the people there to rule them and be the arbitrator and majority had accepted islam. Why would he do that!! he dint. This makes me think that you are just blindly believing an anti islam article. Please dont do that.

reply to post by logical7


Good response.

you are just blindly believing an anti islam article. Please dont do that.

Christians who point fingers at Islam need to learn the proverb about people living in glass houses. They seem to be blissfully complacent with the most heinous of war crimes recorded in the bible.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
-Numbers 31:17-18


Christians are ok with bloodshed as long as its in the bible and will perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to justify it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


about your article from "answering islam"
they are well known about what they are. But fine, i'l answer you.
Look at a belief in whole and not parts.
You believe there is God, and He is good and will take side of good and make it win.
Do you really think muslims dont believe in God? Because it comes to this basic. The idea of different groups as jews, christians, muslims killing the others is ridiculous. Do you think that all individuals in a specific group would be good? And all others in other groups evil? So ya muslims believe that there would be an ultimate showdown between good and evil and good will prevail. Do you say that it would be christians who would prevail? Ya the good one sure but what if a good muslim kills an evil christian or a good christian kills a so called muslim on the side of evil then would you still stick to the label "christian" or rather be "good". And Mahdi would be a gud dude on side of good, he wouldnt track peaceful non muslims to forced islam or kill. Fighting the evil forces would take up most of the time you see. And in the article

The Mahdi is believed to be a
future Muslim world leader who
will not only rule over the Islamic
world, but also the non-Muslim
world as well.

how is the above possible if all non muslims would be butchered? And does it have to be a rule by force or good people dont mind the religion of who rules till he/she is good? And so it boils down to this, do you think muslims are evil just because they refuse divinity of Jesus pbuh? Muslims have the same God as you, you call Him Father we Allah, Do you think Jesus would mind or take offence if we worship only Father and not him?

reply to post by logical7

Your poor excuses for his behavior have proven my point.
He definately was not a holy man.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Good response.

Actually ... it was full of pretty lousy excuses for Muhammads behavior IMHO.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.-Numbers 31:17-18

Ahhhhh .... One of my favorite things to quote from the bible to show that Moses was NOT a man of God either. Most Jews, Christians and Muslims adore Moses as a huge prophet and as someone who conversed with God practically every day. But he was just a powerplaying politician who slaughtered and slaughtered .. except the young girls that he allowed his men to keep as sex slaves. (and all the while he was preaching 'do not commit adultry' :shk: ) 9/10 of those 10 commandments that he supposedly got from God actually came straight from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Something he was well schooled in considering he came from Egyptian elite.

Christians are ok with bloodshed as long as its in the bible and will perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to justify it.

Not at all. And stating the truth about how these people (Muhammad and Moses) weren't holy men at all .. that's not 'mental acrobatics'. It's just stating the truth.

Jesus, however, never lifted a hand against anyone.
He only lifted his hand to heal. BIG DIFFERENCE.