I will follow Jesus , will you follow Mahdi ?

reply to post by FlyersFan


what i see is that anything you read(OT, NT, answering Islam), you believe it to be true except when its anything good from islam, then it is "excuses" and "sugar coating"
do you ever consider the other possibilities? That the ones who wrote them could be wrong while Moses, Muhammad, Jesus peace be upon them could all be prophets?
If you believe everything the jews wrote in OT, why not also believe what they write about Jesus pbuh now?
There should be some consistency and not floating standards, the belief you have cannot be proved without OT, yet OT contains words of Moses pbuh(not a holy man according to you) so how God let these get in? And whats the reliability of other parts of OT? How many other prophets are not holy men? David pbuh?he killed goliath and many men. Now these OT prophets also mentioned about coming of Messiah, so unholy men knowing future prophesies?
The commandments in book of dead. So you say that God and truths belong to a specific group? And if two groups have some similar truths then one must have plagiarised from other?
.
There is just One God. He inspired many men and choose them to contact their people to guide them, the right belief leading to the right conduct we call them prophets, thats the extract of it all.

reply to post by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

When did Ibn Ishaq become a valid and authentic source for Muhammad life? It isn't even accepted as part of the Hadith, because most of the stories cannot be verified. But I suppose since you are using it, no questions asked, to point out murders that were supposedly committed, I suppose you also accept its tales about how Muhammad split the moon, where he multiplied the food so everyone could eat, where he found out that an animal they were eating was poisoned because it told him, how he was seen with two men "washing his heart in snow" in his youth, and how when he took a trip to Syria with his uncle, a christian monk saw the clouds following him, and the trees bending down to shade him from the sun, and after questioning him, affirmed that he would be a prophet?
Or was Ibn Ishaq lying about that stuff, but telling the truth about the stuff you find convenient?

You don't seem to accept the validity of the OT? Do you accept the validity of any of the Bible? How do you know which part is correct? Jesus quoted from the OT. Paul said that ALL scripture is derived from God, and worthy of study and reflection. You don't believe the OT is included in that? Paul seemed to think so- he used examples from the OT regularly. Or you don't accept Paul?
Sure, almost every Prophet according to the OT was responsible for many very reprehensible acts. Jesus wasn't exactly all peace and roses, though, and I'm not just talking about his statements to go against your family, or to buy weapons even if you have to sell your cloak, or even the whipping he dealt out to the money changers at the temple.
It is said of Jesus's second coming that he will convert all the world to Christianity as well (and destroy all those who resist). Jesus will be a "Prince of Peace", because accompanied by his armies, he'd have judged and waged war, his robe dipped in blood, killed anyone who'd have said any different or not accepted him by that point (so much so that every nation on earth will mourn), after which, he will rule with an iron rod.
So you are saying all that is okay, while the fact that Muhammad participated in and lead battles is not, because "Jesus is God"? Not sure how much sense that makes.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Ahhhhh .... One of my favorite things to quote from the bible to show that Moses was NOT a man of God either. Most Jews, Christians and Muslims adore Moses as a huge prophet and as someone who conversed with God practically every day. But he was just a powerplaying politician who slaughtered and slaughtered .. except the young girls that he allowed his men to keep as sex slaves. (and all the while he was preaching 'do not commit adultry' ) 9/10 of those 10 commandments that he supposedly got from God actually came straight from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Something he was well schooled in considering he came from Egyptian elite.

And stating the truth about how these people (Muhammad and Moses) weren't holy men at all .. that's not 'mental acrobatics'. It's just stating the truth.

You are probably the first Christian I've met who has spoken this way against Moses.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
You are probably the first Christian I've met who has spoken this way against Moses.

Okay .. here's some more ...

The whole Moses and Exodus story from the OT ... told from the Jewish point of view so naturally they are the 'good guys'. If they really were slaves in Egypt then where'd they get all that gold to make a golden calf out of?? Answer .. they probably STOLE IT .. and that's why Pharoahs chariots were chasing them across the desert. Not to get slaves back ... but to get the gold that was stolen back.

I'd bet a box of donuts on that one .. but we'll never know for sure .. will we??

reply to post by FlyersFan

If they really were slaves in Egypt then where'd they get all that gold to make a golden calf out of?? Answer .. they probably STOLE IT .

The Israelites didn't steal it.

The Exodus teaches.....


The Egyptians urged the people to hurry and leave the country. “For otherwise,” they said, “we will all die!” So the people took their dough before the yeast was added, and carried it on their shoulders in kneading troughs wrapped in clothing.The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.
-Exodus 12:33-36


The Bible teaches that God enabled the Israelites to plunder the Egyptians.

Originally posted by logical7
what i see is that anything you read(OT, NT, answering Islam), you believe it to be true except when its anything good from islam,

Like I've said before .. do you even read what I post??
Does't look like it.

Originally posted by babloyi
You don't seem to accept the validity of the OT?

I don't think there is much of 'GOD' to be found in the old testament. A lot of people CLAIMING to be prophets etc and doing God's Will ... but considering how freak'n old it is and how often it's probably gone through changes ... and considering that a lot of it was stolen passages from other older cultures and religions and then 'adapted' to make them Jewish .. I don't put much credibility in the OT at all.

Do you accept the validity of any of the Bible?

The 'New Testament' is much newer and can be traced. That doesn't mean that everything written in it is valid or true .. but it's in better shape than the old testament for sure.

I only care about what Christ said and did. What Paul thinks .. what John thinks ... that's not nearly as important as what Christ said and did. It's CHRISTianity .. not Paulianity or Johnianity. Example - Revelation which is written by John. He was an old man, living a stressful life in exhile, not eating well, and had been immersed in religion his whole life. Revelation could EASILY be dementia driven dreams of a stressed out, malnourished old Jewish man.

How do you know which part is correct?

For myself ... I get a basic feel for what Christ said and did and go with it. I don't even know if His exact words were written down or changed. But I try to get a good feel for what the message is.

Jesus quoted from the OT.

Yep. Some. Not all. He did talk about Daniel for instance.

Paul said that ALL scripture is derived from God, and worthy of study and reflection. You don't believe the OT is included in that? Paul seemed to think so- he used examples from the OT regularly. Or you don't accept Paul?

I dont' care what Paul thought. If he thinks the Adam and Eve myth was real ... or that Onanism was punishable by death from God .. or that all the animals on the planet sent two of their kind to Noahs Ark for a boat ride ... that's his problem. I'm not buying it.

It is said of Jesus's second coming that he will convert all the world to Christianity as well (and destroy all those who resist).

I dunno' ... I get that when Christ comes again He'll separate the goats from the sheep (the bad and the good) and that everyone will see Him come again and they will believe because they see him. I don't think they will 'either convert or die' at the tip of a sword when He arrives again .. but they will convert to believing in Him because they see Him come in full glory. And when he separates the good and the bad, it doesn't mean that a peaceful loving Buddhist person is 'bad' just because, up until the arrival of Christ, that person was Buddhist.

Now what the Christians do BEFORE Christ shows up .. that could be a war type thing. But Christians haven't exactly always been the best at doing what God wanted ....

So you are saying all that is okay, while the fact that Muhammad participated in and lead battles is not, because "Jesus is God"? Not sure how much sense that makes.

Jesus doesn't lead a human army to slaughter people because they don't believe a certain way. At least, that's not what I'm reading from His words. Jesus didn't raise an army and slaughter people 2,000 years ago. He raised his hand to heal ... and to drive the money changers out of the temple (which He claimed for His Father). Muhammad, on the other hand, led a life of theft and murder. BIG DIFFERENCE.


ON TOPIC ... not a chance in the world I'd follow some Mahdi fella who was hell bent on making the world Islamic at the tip of a sword. No freak'n way. I don't buy Islam. I don't approve of how it treats women. I don't believe any of it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

See .. I'm not buying that. (not buying scripture) It was written from the Jewish point of view. The Lord supposedly made the Egyptians look favorably upon the Israelites and they gave them gold .. but then in a few days the Lord made the Egyptians change their minds and the armys chased after the Israelites??

Doesn't make sense to me.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Either you believe or you don't . Cherry picking the bible is not an option . That is what the Muslims try to do !

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Either you believe or you don't . Cherry picking the bible is not an option .

Wrong. The bible isn't an all or nothing kind of thing.
Noahs Ark .. Adam and Eve ... Onanism ... Absurd.
Jesus and his teachings ... Awesome.
I can throw out whatever I feel is bunk. It's my right.
You have NO RIGHT to try to claim I can't.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well said to everything... aside from saying you care what paul said... then went back on it and said "i don't care what he said"...

That was slightly amusing



I wish there were more Christians like you Flyers...

You seem to possess something 90% of the christian world lacks...

That being logic

reply to post by FlyersFan

what i see is that anything you
read(OT, NT, answering Islam),
you believe it to be true except
when its anything good from
islam,

Like I've said before .. do you even
read what I post??
Does't look like it.

what i meant was you believe OT is biased and is forged by jews, yet you take what it tells about Moses pbuh as truth and judge him by it? Knowing how jews treat their prophets, and you have Christ as an example? For Christ you used a pro christ source, why dont you have a look at other source that gives a better view of OT prophets and then decide?
Prophets were the people of excellent morals and an example for their people to follow. Ya they were used by God to teach a lesson and so made mistakes and corrected them, Adam pbuh ate from the tree and then repented, Jonah tried to run but came back etc.
Your belief is God sent nobody to guide before Jesus pbuh?

reply to post by Akragon

I wish there were more Christians like you Flyers...
You seem to possess something 90%
of the christian world lacks...
That being logic

selective logic i'l say. if OT can be corrupted, why cant be NT? And whats the proof that everything said about the Christ is 100% true? What i see with you and flyers is that you gravitate to a belief just coz it appeals to you, and so the same for Hindu and buddhist philosophy, they are really enlightening i agree, i like them too but what i and even many other christian friends here would find odd is you cant go belief shopping.
And i want to ask that why choose Jesus pbuh to be divine(at least to flyers, dont know what you think) when taking buddha as god would work equally well? What makes the balance tilt to choose Jesus pbuh?

reply to post by logical7

selective logic i'l say. if OT can be corrupted, why cant be NT?

Who cares if it was corrupted... it is the word of Man not God... And as i've previously stated, the NT is not the word of God either... though IT can be found within...

And whats the proof that everything said about the Christ is 100% true?

The proof lies within the effects it has on ones life...

What i see with you and flyers is that you gravitate to a belief just coz it appeals to you, and so the same for Hindu and buddhist philosophy, they are really enlightening i agree, i like them too but what i and even many other christian friends here would find odd is you cant go belief shopping.

I couldn't care less what any Christian thinks of me... And i don't go "belief shopping" as you say... my beliefs are solid... and haven't changed one bit in many years...

And by the way.... don't bother trying to pull the "All or nothing" arguement on me... That so called arguement has EPIC FAIL written all over it...

And i want to ask that why choose Jesus pbuh to be divine(at least to flyers, dont know what you think) when taking buddha as god would work equally well? What makes the balance tilt to choose Jesus pbuh?

Again... the proof lies within the effects his word has on ones life...

Live by his teaching... and your life with change...

And By the way... Jesus wasn't God... Neither was buddha,or Krishna...

reply to post by Akragon

And by the way.... don't bother trying to pull the "All or nothing" arguement on me... That so called arguement has
EPIC FAIL written all over it...

well i wasnt going to do that, rather my arguement was "if some part is corrupt then be cautious with the rest too" but you answered that, and i was hinting towards the "divinity part" and i got your answer but flyersfan may disagree.
Anyways on our previous talk, i did read the gospel of Thomas and loved it, although dint get the philosophy behind some quotes, but i agreed with the ones i understood. I always enjoy Jesus' pbuh parables and the wisdom, it reminds me of Gibran's lines-
'Once every hundred years Jesus of Nazareth meets Jesus of the Christian in a garden among the hills of Lebanon. And they talk long; and each time Jesus of Nazareth goes away saying to Jesus of the Christian, “My friend, I fear we shall never, never agree.”'

reply to post by logical7


The only real issue i have with the "christian" Jesus is that he is made out to be God.

So tell me, what is the difference between that one and Jesus of Nazareth?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

The only real issue i have with the "christian" Jesus is that he is made out to be God.

So tell me, what is the difference between that one and Jesus of Nazareth?

edit on 22-11-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

the parables he taught are not for just philosophy but to apply in life, that is not stressed at all in christianity.
A belief is just a belief if it doesnt get converted into actions.

reply to post by logical7


That didn't answer my question did it?

reply to post by Akragon


Jesus and God are one in their spiritual resolve . There is God the Father to whom the Son of God Jesus born of Mary prayed to while he was on earth . Then there is Jesus who is the Lord whom the Father sent to earth be born of Mary and take on flesh . Jesus never said he was God the Father . He was sent to earth and flesh to do the will of the Father .When he was crucified to death and completed that mission , before he was taken up he said God the Father would send a comforter the Holy Spirit to help the Apostles . The Father , the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in spiritual resolve but three individual entities .
Now the Muslim believes Jesus was the Truth and Light but not the Son of God and did not die on the cross . This is because if Jesus was the Son of God and died on the cross for the remission of sins then Mohammad would have no spiritual authority and be a fraud . It is imperative that they hold to Jesus failing in his duties and not being the Son of God .

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

That didn't answer my question did it?

yes it did, i am not saying Jesus of Christianity is bad, that title just denotes what the church potrays him as. A saviour, a lamb etc
but Jesus of Nazareth is a reformer, a prophet who came to ask people to be better, Do God's will, repent.
One says "just believe" other "believe and then act"