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A challenge for the Mason haters

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posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


Maybe i didn't word my question very well, but i wasn't actually referring to an Athiest, i was referring to someone who may believe that there is a Supreme Being, yet also considers the possibility that there may not be as well. I don't think there is an actual name for this, or none that i've heard of, but to my understanding an Athiest is someone who has the belief that there is no God or Supreme Being, where as what i was asking was what about someone who considers all possibilities without fully committing to one without solid proof or evidence.

I think the best way i can ask the question is.......................if i was about to become a member, and i said i believe that something may of started all of this, possibly a Supreme Being, but i also believe that this could be wrong and i keep the option open that it could be worng, would that be enough to stop me from becoming a member ? If yes, then why ?

Again, i thank you for your response.




posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


Sorry, but one more question in regards to you saying you'll look into how many VP's were Freemason's. Is there any way of finding out how many "advisor's" to Presidents were Freemason's as well ? This are the people that worry me the most [the advisor's], they are unelected even in a sham system that currently operates, and they have a huge say and influence on what Presidents say, do and sign. Yet when the s#@t hits the fan, they face little repercusions or penalty, and quielty slip back behind the scenes. I'll look into this myself as well because i'd really be interested to see how many advisor's over the years have been Freemason's. The reason it interests me is because IF i do believe that there may be a system in place for pre-selecting Presidents, then the best way to avoid public backlash would be to pick a certain amount of non-Mason's as President, while then having a heavily stacked hand of Freemason advisor's directing that pre-chosen President around, just like a any good puppet on a string.

Surely an organization that can produce 14 Presidents [including the founding father], could also possibly produce more than enough advisors for when a non-Mason gets the top job ? It would be an effective way to keep that Freemason's-to-Presidents percentage down enough to not be obvious. Just a thought ?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ringlejames
If you ever get beyond 33rd degree master mason...


Can you describe these Degrees? How high do they go? What body confers them? What is a list of members that you are aware of?
And, most importantly to any self-respecting Mason, where can I buy the lapel pins for these higher degrees?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 02:31 AM
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reply to post by OnTheLevel213
 


Well it looks like i may of just lost my small wager !

But according to the US Department of Education there are approx. 2300 colleges in the US granting a 4 year degree. I could use the same logic applied to me by saying that 14 Presidents out of 44 isn't warranted criticism of Freemasonry, well 31 colleges out of approx. 2300 could also be classed as a small number of colleges. I think i just saved my small wager ?

As for many more Presidents not coming from college secret societies.................well unless their membership has been exposed or admitted to, then no one can really say for sure that they were or weren't members and it would be all opinion, and claims of many more not being a member can't really be proven.

The comment about being told anyone can one day become President was used more to show that the whole election system is a sham. When the US can come withing a whisker of producing a father/son [Bush] and husband/wife [Clinton] combination over 20 years of Presidents, then you know something must be wrong with the official line. Throw into that 14 out of 44 presidents being Freemason's, and possible VP's or advisors, then no one can blame anyone for at least considering the possibility that there is something seriously amiss with the system. You are right that this reflects on society in general, but secret socities, or societies with secrets are salso part of society whether they choose to be or not. It is a broader society problem, but most problems can be fixed by looking at some of the smaller problems contributing to the bigger problem.

What exactly do you mean by your secrets have been readily available for public consumption in some form or other ? Or more specifically, what do you mean when you say "in some form or other" ? Doe's that mean clearly written or spoken ? Does it mean in a cryptic way that most people wouldn't see either way ?

And that's fine that different Mason's have different opinions, but one Mason in particular on here told me that it is NOT a society with secrets and was telling me i was wrong for suggesting this, despite hearing the opposite from another Mason. Maybe those 2 should have a discussion amongst themselves and come to a common ground before telling other's what is or isn't correct ? And i'm not implying that Freemasonry is a cult, i was just referring to what another Mason had said, only to be contradicted by another Mason.

As for the tour of Area 51, i get your point and it was a tongue in check comment, but the point i was making was, would i get the full tour, or the vistor's tour ? Ok, i'll change Area 51 to say Langley, where you can get a pre-organized PR tour, but is the tour really anything more than just a sight-seeing exercise. Yeah sure you'll the VIP treatment and they'll show you here and there, but they won't take you to where the "black-op's" rooms are. But Area 51 or Langley, the place doesn't matter, its more to do with the reality of what "come for a tour" really means.....................a PR exercise with no real substance !

Ahhhh, but is learning how to recognize another Mason ALL that the secrets conatin ???? As a non-Mason i cannot say for sure, but also cannot fully accept the word as 100% truth either. Maybe its just me, but i have a hard time believing that the purpose ,or secret of a group is just to be able to recognize other members ?

As for 68% failing...................well it depends on what you class as failing, and my previous post about "advisor's" also needs to be taken into account and would explain my point here further. Lets just say that for example, a non-mason was President, but 10 of his 15 UNELECTED advisor's were Freemason's, would that still class as a "fail" considering you would have a majority in the Presidents ear, or should i say, a majority pulling the Presidents strings ??? Just an example, not an accusation.


My point about the 32nd and 33rd was purely about showing a level system that was denied by someone claiming to be a Mason. If nothing was taught, earnt, given, passed on etc, then what is the real point of having 32nd and 33rd ? Its the level system that i'm referring to here, not what what each level does or doesn't do.

And i am aware that any group has officers and different positions, but the claim of all men being equal amongst the group cannot be true when you have a hierachy in place no matter how good their intentions may be. But i guess it all comes down to one's definition of 'equal' ?

Thanks for your response and comments



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 03:05 AM
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Originally posted by darkhorserider
So, I wore a Masonic shirt out today. I rarely do it, but I had a light T-shirt, it is comfy, and it is a warm day, so I threw it on.

My first stop was Ace Hardware. At the checkout, the cashier asked if I was a Mason, and I said yes. I asked her if she knew some Masons, and she said, no, but she knew they were good people. I thanked her, and then the lady behind me spoke up. She said she knew Masons supported the Shriners, and her son had a club foot when he was born 15 years ago, and the Shriners Hospital in Tampa fixed the foot for free, and they still see him once every year, and he is running track in high school this year! She gushed about the Shriners and thanked me for my service.

I finished paying, and as I walked out, a man who had overheard the conversation stopped me and asked if I was a Shriner. I said yes, and he said 20 years ago, he and a friend had wrecked a 4-wheeler and his friend ended up underneath of it, against the exhaust and became very badly injured and burned. The local hospitals couldn't handle his injuries, and after being stablized he was flown to Shriners Burn Unit in Houston, where he was treated at no charge, and made a full recovery after several difficult surgeries.

Now, to be honest, this was a little distracting for me. I've heard these stories many, many times, and I was in quite a hurry to get a lot of errands run and yard work done today, but of course I was polite and thanked them for the conversation.

Next stop was the car wash, and as I vacummed my car, a young women from the next stall came over to ask if I was a Mason. I said yes, as I thought of the time ticking away on my vacuum token, and she proceeded to tell me her grandfather was a Mason, and her brother wanted to get involved, and she knew what a quality organization it was, and she hoped her brother would meet some really good role models there. My vacuum time ran out, and I proceeded to give her my name and number, and the numbers of a few other guys that would gladly talk to her brother if he was interested.

This was just one hour wearing a Masonic T-shirt on a Saturday morning.

For those folks that love to criticize, and think the whole world is similar to the internet...

I challenge you!
Put on a Masonic T-shirt one day, and go out into the world.


Don't lie about your affiliation. When folks ask, tell them you are not a Mason, you just like the T-shirt, and then listen to the stories they tell you about Masonry.

The only place Masons are feared and ridiculed is on the internet. In real life, real folks admire and appreciate Masonry, and they have nothing but good things to say about it. Not once in my 10 years as a Mason has a person ever asked if I was a Mason, and then proceeded to ask about conspiracy theories, or huff at my affiliation, or seem taken back, or mentioned anything remotely similar to the stuff on ATS and other sites.

TRY IT! I dare you. But don't do it if you have a lot of yard work to get done!


Can you please tell me something you have done in your life that makes you feel exceptionally proud to have contributed to humanity?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by magickmaster
Can you please tell me something you have done in your life that makes you feel exceptionally proud to have contributed to humanity?


I love my family and friends and try to treat them with kindness and empathy.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by magickmaster
 



Can you please tell me something you have done in your life that makes you feel exceptionally proud to have contributed to humanity?


Thank you for asking, I think this is the question we are all begging to be asked!! A chance to brag, a chance to toot my own horn? I'd LOVE to!

First and foremost, I have two wonderful kids, and I'm raising them the same way I was raised.

I also have a little brother that wasn't the best student in school, average kid, but he followed my examples and lessons, and attained his Bachelor's in Theoretical Physics, his Masters in Economics, and is currently a college professor.

My ex-wife was a high school dropout, but after meeting me, she got her GED, then community college, and then finally Suma Cum Laude at Florida State University, and now she is a Vice-President of a Bank, and the only certified FHA/VA/USDA underwriter in her town! Every banker for 200 miles wants to be like her!

So, enough with the easy stuff. I also occasionally visit the Shriner Hospitals and talk to the kids. I seek out burn victims when I can, and I counsel them about my experience. I occasionally get asked to speak at other events related more toward life-coaching and career choices. I teach Interviewing Technique classes at several different employers and I serve as an official Mentor for people looking to advance their career. It takes 10-30 hours per month as official volunteer time in that role.

I work in government regulation of healthcare professions, and I've been on the front line of shutting down hundreds of pill mills and pain clinics.

In addition to those responsibilities, I am also a prepper, and I run a little mini-farm, and I provide organic eggs and vegetables to my friends and neighbors at no charge, and I am attempting to write a survival book to help people understand 3 key areas they should concentrate their prepping efforts. Two of those areas are probably going to be a surprise to most folks.

I also do healthy eating counseling and personal training, and I'm currently helping a buddy get a very low cost nutrition website off the ground, with the help of some other popular trainers and athletes, probably names you would recognize if I dropped them.

Most importantly though, I strive to be a good person, a friendly person, and live a life that is just and upright and transparent, so that if any of my acquaintances need a strong friend, or an empathetic ear, or some tough love, or some straight-forward advice, they know they can come to me. I've had people crash at my house for days, and for months. I've given money, food, jobs, and anything else I'm capable of giving. I've coached T-ball, taught karate, taught swimming lessons, visited distressed folks in the hospital, and held my best friend's hand as he took his last breaths a couple of months ago.

Your turn.
edit on 9-11-2012 by darkhorserider because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by AussieDingus
 

I would say you're aiming at an agnostic (or not), and I don't have first hand knowledge, but I'm sure there are some who have joined. Regardless if I'm getting the right term, I'm sure there are people who have that view.

When having those thoughts and thinking of joining, I would say it would be up to you on how you answer the questions that will be asked of a candidate and their belief in a Supreme Being.

reply to post by AussieDingus
 

I've thought about researching the Cabinet members who have been Masons, but that would take some time. It can be done and since I know some Grand Secretaries it makes a bit easier for me. It's a good point to look at these men who have the President's ear. With my stack of research on my desk, I'll work on this, but it will be slowly.

I'm sure there have been plenty of them, I'll have to look. It's a fair question to ask.

reply to post by magickmaster
 

Why not feel some pride about what the Masonic charities have done?

I try to do good things in my life and donate my money to those things that I think will do the most good.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
31 colleges out of approx. 2300 could also be classed as a small number of colleges.


That's true if you don't look at the total opportunities. There have only been 44 opportunities to have a future President attend your school, and 31 schools have done so. (You also have to consider the fact that a vast majority of institutions of higher learning were founded after the 20th century; those who have had full opportunity are even smaller.)


As for many more Presidents not coming from college secret societies.................well unless their membership has been exposed or admitted to, then no one can really say for sure that they were or weren't members and it would be all opinion, and claims of many more not being a member can't really be proven.


Then this is a moot point.


When the US can come withing a whisker of producing a father/son [Bush] and husband/wife [Clinton] combination over 20 years of Presidents, then you know something must be wrong with the official line.


Being associated with influential people can give you influence. The association here is family, not secret organizations.


Throw into that 14 out of 44 presidents being Freemason's, and possible VP's or advisors, then no one can blame anyone for at least considering the possibility that there is something seriously amiss with the system.


Correlation =/=causation. (Especially a relatively weak one.)


You are right that this reflects on society in general, but secret socities, or societies with secrets are salso part of society whether they choose to be or not. It is a broader society problem, but most problems can be fixed by looking at some of the smaller problems contributing to the bigger problem.


Your line of thinking appears to be "Problems exist, so let's find a way that this is one of them." That's not a way to fix anything.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
Well it looks like i may of just lost my small wager !

But according to the US Department of Education there are approx. 2300 colleges in the US granting a 4 year degree. I could use the same logic applied to me by saying that 14 Presidents out of 44 isn't warranted criticism of Freemasonry, well 31 colleges out of approx. 2300 could also be classed as a small number of colleges. I think i just saved my small wager ?
So the fact that 44 Presidents went to 31 colleges out of 2300 means what exactly? How on earth could 44 presidents come from 2300 colleges? Maybe if each president had attended 52 different schools you'd be happier? I'm not sure what your point is.

At most, there could be 44 different schools represented. (Well, OK, conceivably as many as 88, if every single president got a master's degree and got it from a different institution than where they'd gotten their bachelor's...) How does 2300 even factor in, in your mind?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
What exactly do you mean by your secrets have been readily available for public consumption in some form or other ? Or more specifically, what do you mean when you say "in some form or other" ? Doe's that mean clearly written or spoken ? Does it mean in a cryptic way that most people wouldn't see either way ?


That means that books of Masonic ritual, secrets included, are available at all major booksellers.


Maybe those 2 should have a discussion amongst themselves and come to a common ground before telling other's what is or isn't correct ?


No, those two should understand and respect each other's opinions of how Freemasonry is best described to non-Masons.


And i'm not implying that Freemasonry is a cult, i was just referring to what another Mason had said, only to be contradicted by another Mason.


That's what I mean. Freemasonry welcomes differences of opinion, including about itself.


As for the tour of Area 51, i get your point and it was a tongue in check comment


I'm kind of a pedant.

[qutoe]would i get the full tour, or the vistor's tour?

You would see every room of the lodge you asked to see.


Ahhhh, but is learning how to recognize another Mason ALL that the secrets conatin ????


Yes.


Maybe its just me, but i have a hard time believing that the purpose ,or secret of a group is just to be able to recognize other members ?


You shouldn't believe that the purpose of Freemasonry is to guard its own secrets.


As for 68% failing...................well it depends on what you class as failing, and my previous post about "advisor's" also needs to be taken into account and would explain my point here further. Lets just say that for example, a non-mason was President, but 10 of his 15 UNELECTED advisor's were Freemason's, would that still class as a "fail" considering you would have a majority in the Presidents ear, or should i say, a majority pulling the Presidents strings ??? Just an example, not an accusation.


You're moving the goalposts, but fine, I'll bite. None of the Obama, Bush or Clinton Cabinets (as far back as I checked; knock yourself out) appear to be Freemasons.


My point about the 32nd and 33rd was purely about showing a level system that was denied by someone claiming to be a Mason. If nothing was taught, earnt, given, passed on etc, then what is the real point of having 32nd and 33rd ?


Full disclosure: I'm not in the Scottish Rite. That said, it's not that nothing is taught. It's that no additional authority or influence is gained just by taking one extra degree, least of all in the blue lodge, which is the really important body.


And i am aware that any group has officers and different positions, but the claim of all men being equal amongst the group cannot be true when you have a hierachy in place no matter how good their intentions may be. But i guess it all comes down to one's definition of 'equal' ?


That it does. I don't consider the leaders of my Grand Lodge to be my superiors by virtue of their office.


Thanks for your response and comments


The pleasure is mine. I hope I've contributed something of substance.








posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 



So really, its not actually if you DO believe in a Supreme Being, it's if you say you do when asked ?

Just out of curiousity, what would happen if a member said that they did believe in a Supreme Being when asked, but it was later revealed by whatever means that they in fact didn't completely believe. Would they be asked to leave, forced to leave,punished, looked down upon ?

My personal take on the while Creator, or Supreme Being thing is that i think that something more than likely started, or created what we call life, but i also believe that we evolve along the way and have to learn from past mistakes. The thing that really irk's me about the whole religous debate in society is that it seems you have to committ to one or the other and be either a Creationist, or an Evolutionist, but if you tell people that you believe that both may be occuring then they look at you like you're some kind of leper.

Can you believe in both Creation and Evolution and still be a Freemason ?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by AussieDingus
 

Not exactly. You do need the belief, but we rely on the man's integrity to be telling us the truth when he comes in. If they answer the questions correctly, unless you had a personal knowledge with them then you really can't catch them on it unless they slip up later. If a Mason knows that someone is an atheist, but still votes in favor of them they could be held up on charges as well.


Just out of curiousity, what would happen if a member said that they did believe in a Supreme Being when asked, but it was later revealed by whatever means that they in fact didn't completely believe. Would they be asked to leave, forced to leave,punished, looked down upon?

They would be expelled.


Can you believe in both Creation and Evolution and still be a Freemason?

Sure. The fraternity doesn't dictate to what your belief may be.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by AussieDingus
31 colleges out of approx. 2300 could also be classed as a small number of colleges.


That's true if you don't look at the total opportunities. There have only been 44 opportunities to have a future President attend your school, and 31 schools have done so. (You also have to consider the fact that a vast majority of institutions of higher learning were founded after the 20th century; those who have had full opportunity are even smaller.)


As for many more Presidents not coming from college secret societies.................well unless their membership has been exposed or admitted to, then no one can really say for sure that they were or weren't members and it would be all opinion, and claims of many more not being a member can't really be proven.


Then this is a moot point.


When the US can come withing a whisker of producing a father/son [Bush] and husband/wife [Clinton] combination over 20 years of Presidents, then you know something must be wrong with the official line.


Being associated with influential people can give you influence. The association here is family, not secret organizations.


Throw into that 14 out of 44 presidents being Freemason's, and possible VP's or advisors, then no one can blame anyone for at least considering the possibility that there is something seriously amiss with the system.


Correlation =/=causation. (Especially a relatively weak one.)


You are right that this reflects on society in general, but secret socities, or societies with secrets are salso part of society whether they choose to be or not. It is a broader society problem, but most problems can be fixed by looking at some of the smaller problems contributing to the bigger problem.


Your line of thinking appears to be "Problems exist, so let's find a way that this is one of them." That's not a way to fix anything.


Fair point. But now lets broaden that from not just Presidents, lets also throw in VP's, advisor's, Congressmen, Senator's, multi-national CEO's and the board of director's. What if those 6 positions now brought the figure of 44 from 31 colleges to maybe say, 1000 from 31 colleges ? I know the original question was about Presidents, but VP's must also be included because they are one step from having the top job. Advisor's must also be included because they have the ear [strings] of the President. Congressmen and Senators have powerful say and influence and can pass or deny a Presidents bill, so they too have to be included. Big Business, and the top end of the banking system rule our Government, therefore they too have to be included as they influence a Presidents decision.

As for the Bush and Clinton families, yes they are connected by family, yet one of those families is connected by a Secret Society, do we know for sure that the other family isn't as well ? Again, we only know a if someone is a member if its been exposed and proven, or admitted to and proven. But until it is proven, its just personal opinion.

And i'm sorry, but NO, my way of thinking is not "a problem exists, so lets find a way that this is one of them" and thats clearly not what i wrote or meant. All i said was when a bigger problem exists, then whats wrong with looking at the smaller problems that may be contributing to the bigger problem. I never mentioned blame. If my car engine stops running, i don't just say "oh, the engine's stuffed", i open the bonnet and i start at a certain point to see what may be causing the engine not to work as its supposed to. I check water and oil levels, i check the battery, i check the sprak plugs, the radiator because any of these smaller problems could be a cause or large contributor to the bigger problem of the engine not working. I'm not looking to blame one of these things for the engine not working, i'm looking for the thing thats stopping the engine from working. So do i just sit back and look at the engine and say "its not working", or do i look for a possible reason why it isn't working. This is the exact same mentality that i meant, and you're interpretation of it was way off i'm sorry !



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by AussieDingus
Well it looks like i may of just lost my small wager !

But according to the US Department of Education there are approx. 2300 colleges in the US granting a 4 year degree. I could use the same logic applied to me by saying that 14 Presidents out of 44 isn't warranted criticism of Freemasonry, well 31 colleges out of approx. 2300 could also be classed as a small number of colleges. I think i just saved my small wager ?
So the fact that 44 Presidents went to 31 colleges out of 2300 means what exactly? How on earth could 44 presidents come from 2300 colleges? Maybe if each president had attended 52 different schools you'd be happier? I'm not sure what your point is.

At most, there could be 44 different schools represented. (Well, OK, conceivably as many as 88, if every single president got a master's degree and got it from a different institution than where they'd gotten their bachelor's...) How does 2300 even factor in, in your mind?


The fact that 44 Presidents went to 31 colleges out of 2300 means nothing, just as the comments that 14 Freemasons out of 44 Presidents just being a co-incidence means nothing to me. I was just using that persons logic with the same logic to show it makes no sense. How does 14 Freemason Presidents out of 44, or, 14 Presidents out of 44 from ONE organization get dismissed as just a co-incidence in anyone's mind ? What college's did the 14 Freemason's come from ? I will look this up myself but it would be interesting if the 14 Freemason presidents came from only 2 or 3 colleges. If thats the case my small wager still looks safe !



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by AussieDingus
 


I agree, it is not just a coincidence, but it is also no kind of conspiracy. The Masons were instrumental in the early days of the the Republic. They were reknowned and educated and involved. The very style of government we enjoy has roots in Masonry, just like our modern way of conducting board meetings has its roots in Masonry and all subsequent fraternities and sororoties have their roots in Masonry.

The Lodge Business in Masonry is organized, fair, and democratic, while also being efficient and effective. It has been tried and trued, so it makes sense it would be emulated.

I would vote for a Masonic candidate even today. (Actually, I just had a chance to vote for a Masonic candidate for Sheriff, and I decided not to vote for him, LOL). BUT, all things being equal, if given half an opportunity, I would vote for a Masonic president today!



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
Fair point. But now lets broaden that from not just Presidents, lets also throw in VP's, advisor's, Congressmen, Senator's, multi-national CEO's and the board of director's. What if those 6 positions now brought the figure of 44 from 31 colleges to maybe say, 1000 from 31 colleges ?


If you find it necessary, please work this one out. That's a lot of homework.


I know the original question was about Presidents, but VP's must also be included because they are one step from having the top job.


18 of 46 vice presidents have been Masons; that's 39%.


Advisor's must also be included because they have the ear [strings] of the President. Congressmen and Senators have powerful say and influence and can pass or deny a Presidents bill, so they too have to be included.


Again, none of the Obama, Bush or Clinton Cabinets have had Freemasons. In 2009, there were ten Masons in Congress; at least one, Robert Byrd, has died since then.


Big Business, and the top end of the banking system rule our Government, therefore they too have to be included as they influence a Presidents decision.


This is the thing I don't understand. You'll clearly acknowledge that money is what runs the world (and its governments), and then you'll toss it aside to chase "secret societies". Why isn't money a good enough explanation?


As for the Bush and Clinton families, yes they are connected by family, yet one of those families is connected by a Secret Society, do we know for sure that the other family isn't as well ?


You can't use something as evidence just because it hasn't been disproven.


And i'm sorry, but NO, my way of thinking is not "a problem exists, so lets find a way that this is one of them" and thats clearly not what i wrote or meant. All i said was when a bigger problem exists, then whats wrong with looking at the smaller problems that may be contributing to the bigger problem.


Yes, but you've decided something "may be contributing" based on fantastical leaps of logic and continuously moving goalposts.


If my car engine stops running, i don't just say "oh, the engine's stuffed", i open the bonnet and i start at a certain point to see what may be causing the engine not to work as its supposed to. I check water and oil levels, i check the battery, i check the sprak plugs, the radiator because any of these smaller problems could be a cause or large contributor to the bigger problem of the engine not working. I'm not looking to blame one of these things for the engine not working, i'm looking for the thing thats stopping the engine from working. So do i just sit back and look at the engine and say "its not working", or do i look for a possible reason why it isn't working.


If you applied this same "let's investigate all the problems, from most likely to least likely" to the matter at hand, there's no way you arrive at "secret societies" as quickly as you have. You're already relying on what hasn't been disptoven as quasi-evidence. That's not diagnostics. That's looking for a way to fit the diagnosis to the problem.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
I was just using that persons logic with the same logic to show it makes no sense. How does 14 Freemason Presidents out of 44, or, 14 Presidents out of 44 from ONE organization get dismissed as just a co-incidence in anyone's mind ?


No one said it was coincidence. A history of civic involvement is common among those seeking political office, for obvious reasons. There's a lot of space between "coincidence" and "conspiracy"


What college's did the 14 Freemason's come from ? I will look this up myself but it would be interesting if the 14 Freemason presidents came from only 2 or 3 colleges. If thats the case my small wager still looks safe !


Our 14 Masonic Presidents attended 10 colleges, not including the pair that did not attend college.
edit on 10-11-2012 by OnTheLevel213 because: formatting



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by AussieDingus
How does 14 Freemason Presidents out of 44, or, 14 Presidents out of 44 from ONE organization get dismissed as just a co-incidence in anyone's mind ?


I think what should trouble you more is that 26 of the 43 men were lawyers. That is definetly not a coincidence.



posted on Nov, 10 2012 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by darkhorserider
reply to post by AussieDingus
 


I agree, it is not just a coincidence, but it is also no kind of conspiracy. The Masons were instrumental in the early days of the the Republic. They were reknowned and educated and involved. The very style of government we enjoy has roots in Masonry, just like our modern way of conducting board meetings has its roots in Masonry and all subsequent fraternities and sororoties have their roots in Masonry.

The Lodge Business in Masonry is organized, fair, and democratic, while also being efficient and effective. It has been tried and trued, so it makes sense it would be emulated.

I would vote for a Masonic candidate even today. (Actually, I just had a chance to vote for a Masonic candidate for Sheriff, and I decided not to vote for him, LOL). BUT, all things being equal, if given half an opportunity, I would vote for a Masonic president today!


If something isn't a co-incidence, then isn't it planned, or posibly even conspired ?





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