A challenge for the Mason haters

Originally posted by seudonymous
reply to post by darkhorserider

 

I have known a few masons, seemed like alright people. But From all the stories I have heard they are no more likely to be good people. One of my friends granddad was a mason... and a drunk and a racist. A girl I know is estranged from her dad because he put the lodge before his family. And a work mates family broke down after his mason father cheated. As I say, all of the masons I have known seem alright, but I didn't know them well.
It seems like your putting them on a pedestal, maybe its different in America, but most people I talk too just see them as another religion. The Rockefeller foundation does a lot for charity, so did Jimmy Savile... Any organization that wants its members to believe in a deity has some major floors from the start, imo.

Actually, I have seen some of the same things you mention. Many Masons do drink, and many Masons do seem to dedicate too much time to the Lodge at the expense of their personal lives. We try to warn them against it, and we are taught to put family and personal obligations first, but many men prefer to spend the majority of their time around the brethren. Masons are also vulnerable to the same temptations of flesh that any other man is vulnerable too. A study I recently posted in another blog shows that 74% of men and 68% of women say they would cheat if they were certain the wouldn't get caught. In that blog I also posted about Petreaus, and Patton, and MacArthur, and Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton, JFK, Martin Luther King Jr., and a dozen other well known cheaters. Masons are no different, even though we strive to be better men, we are certainly not perfect.

I didn't mean to put Masons on a pedestal at all, but I did intend to show another side of perception to Masonry. People on the internet tend to think everyone fears and hates Masons, while in real life the opposite is closer to reality. Most people respect and appreciate Masons, but also realize we are just a group of men like any other group of men, and we have our own flaws.

As far as the deity though, I feel completely opposite of you. Any organization that doesn't begin with a deep spiritual belief is doomed from the start. Masons are savvy enough to leave religious belief out of it, but we know that a man must have some spiritual belief and deep conviction or otherwise no obligation he takes from us, or word he makes to us will have any meaning. The belief in deity is paramount to a moral code, without it is to be but an animal.

Originally posted by hymey
reply to post by darkhorserider

 

Doing charity work is the oldest trick in the book to get public support. Outlaw Bikie clubs like the'' hells angels'' do fantastic charity work at kids hospitals.As for Masons being Satanic,I think 95% believe they are in a fraternity and are blissfully unaware of anything else. these 95%[Blue lodgers] and their ignorance acts as a sheild between the high degree masons and the public,[very clever].Read their literature,there is no love in it,no mention of Jesus Christ,and cutting peoples tongues out at midnight,why would you want to hang out with people like that?Honestly their own literature convicts them as Satanic.

I think the Bible has far more cruel verses than cutting people's tongues out. Flooding the entire earth, nailing people to a cross to languish for days before they die, sacrificing the first born of an entire community, etc., etc. If you're looking for love in Masonry, you just have to look to the brethren, but if you're looking for love in the Bible, you have to get through the whole Old Testament, and start into the New Testament before you start to find any, and even then it is peppered with hatred and strife!

I do happen to know some real 1%er bike guys (one is even an ATS member), and they can certainly be great guys with good causes, and they can also be very scary guys that you don't want to cross. Comparing a biker club to the Masons is pretty far-fetched though.

Masons don't jump you in, or bleed you out. To join, you just have to ask and find out you have the necessarily required beliefs. To leave, you just leave. There is no requirement to sell drugs, or beat up ATF agents, and you don't have to be dead to get out. There is a small element of people "taking your patches" if you don't know your stuff, but it is extremely rare, and mostly confined to Prince Hall Masons. I think we need more of that actually, and higher expectations of our members. If we were a little more like a biker gang, it would probably be somewhat of an improvement to the fraternity as a whole!

Originally posted by darkhorserider

Originally posted by seudonymous
reply to post by darkhorserider

 

As far as the deity though, I feel completely opposite of you. Any organization that doesn't begin with a deep spiritual belief is doomed from the start. Masons are savvy enough to leave religious belief out of it, but we know that a man must have some spiritual belief and deep conviction or otherwise no obligation he takes from us, or word he makes to us will have any meaning. The belief in deity is paramount to a moral code, without it is to be but an animal.

This is the part I dont understand, I dont know much about freemasonry, so forgive my ignorance.
It seems to me peoples gods are almost used against them. It's almost as if people who believe in gods are wanted because they are more likely to put faith in the unknown, people who are a bit naive (or have conviction as you put it). Which would help those more influential members, if they ever wanted to get up to mischief without others finding out about it. Not that I would know what you lot get up too.
Your definition of spirituality seems quite narrow. As I think we have established, masons are not more likely to have a higher standard of morals than say, your local bowls club. So why not allow a broader spectrum of spiritual people? Or is the concept of a god necessary at your meeting? Do you accept Buddhist members, or do you need to be strictly theist?
Sorry for all the questions, there is lots of misinformation out there so I'm making assumptions.

edit on 20/11/2012 by seudonymous because: Tried to fix my text in your quote box...

reply to post by hymey

Comparing us to thugs is an even older trick and a horrible analogy. Making next you can compare apples to oranges.

Outlaw Bikie clubs like the'' hells angels'' do fantastic charity work at kids hospitals.

"Bikie"? Really? Plus, why are you using quotes when Hells Angels is a real club, it's not something imaginary or figurative?

So you think the "95%" are only Blue Lodge Masons, but how exactly do you know more than they when they are members and you are not? Plus, with all the ceremonies I've been through, there is nothing anti-Christian or Satanic about any of it. The York Rite, particularly the Chivalric Orders are Christian in nature. In some jurisdictions outside the US one must be Christian to progress beyond the 18th degree of the Scottish Rite.

You should realize that degree doesn't necessarily equal rank. You should also realize that the bodies outside of the Blue Lodge are not superior to the Master Mason degree or the Blue Lodge. In fact the appendant and concordant bodies rely upon approval from the Blue Lodges (specifically the Grand Lodges) to operate within a jurisdiction.

There is nothing in our literature that speaks against Christ nor labels us as Satanic. If you have actually ever read our literature and not some anti-Mason site says, you'd know this. Many prominent Masons are Christians, but Freemasonry is tolerant of religions and we allow men of many faiths to join our ranks.

Originally posted by seudonymous
I have known a few masons, seemed like alright people. But From all the stories I have heard they are no more likely to be good people.

Masonry can offer lessons, but it's up to each member to try to live up to those lessons. When there's good camaraderie, there can be support between brethren to help keep them on the right path, but not everyone will make use of that support structure.

So at some point you have to consider Freemasonry as an abstract ideal, and separate that from your notion of the individual.

A coach at Penn State was a pedophile. Does that make all employees of Penn State pedophiles? Is it endemic of the culture of the institution that made or allowed him to be a pedophile? Or was he a sick and twisted individual who would have done the same thing regardless of where he worked?

Originally posted by seudonymous
This is the part I dont understand, I dont know much about freemasonry, so forgive my ignorance.
It seems to me peoples gods are almost used against them. It's almost as if people who believe in gods are wanted because they are more likely to put faith in the unknown, people who are a bit naive (or have conviction as you put it).

I see it the other way... it would be arrogant to assume that man knows everything. There is always going to be an unknown—the inexplicable. Freemasonry gained its footing during the enlightenment era. Philosophers at the time were trying to find a balance between science and faith.

Theology and philosophy each have their separate terrain and Nature can no more be explained from Scripture than can theological truth be deduced from Nature

—Balthasar Bekker

Do you accept Buddhist members, or do you need to be strictly theist?

There's at least one member of my lodge who self-identifies as Buddhist, yes.

HIGHLY LIKELY...

If You Testify A Comedy Which Is Ironic And It Reveals A Tragedy Too Funny To Forget...
A High Rank God-Status Idiot Will Rape Himself... Hmmm???

K... Rape = 2nd Degree! Fellow Craft (As In Mind And Body Agree Totaslly)

reply to post by seudonymous

Your definition of spirituality seems quite narrow. As I think we have established, masons are not more likely to have a higher standard of morals than say, your local bowls club. So why not allow a broader spectrum of spiritual people? Or is the concept of a god necessary at your meeting? Do you accept Buddhist members, or do you need to be strictly theist?

The spectrum of spirituality is quite broad actually. A Buddhist could be accepted as long as they believe in a single creator. Any religion or a man without religion are all welcome as members as long as they believe in a single creator.

In my opinion, and of course I do not speak for the whole of Masonry, but my opinion is that a man who does not have any sort of spirituality cannot be trusted to act for the greater good. I personally believe all morality is based in spirituality, and without spirituality we are just animals, and our motivations are more selfish in nature. Even if a person can act civilly the majority of the time, without any sort of underlying spirituality, that civility is questionable.

How each man defines and/or names that spirituality is up to him, so long as he has one.

As far as Masons being more likely to have a higher standard, I believe they are more likely to have a higher standard, but the standard is still not perfection. We are a little bit selective in who we admit, and we do teach a moral code, and we do expel members that cannot continue to meat the moral standard, so on the whole, I suspect we have a much higher average standard than the general population, but we still have anomalies.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by hymey

 

But you keep reading that literature and listening to your preacher. I am sure they know more than an actual member.

Some of the "literature" available also contains information and allegations from people claiming to be an actual member. Do we just disregard their information or literature because it may be in a more negative view ? Are we to only accept the word of a Mason when its from a positive point of view of Freemasonry ?

reply to post by darkhorserider


Fist of all great post, a pleasure to read. S&F

Second, I 100% agree with you. My chosen career field allows me to travel the world and I have been fortunate enough to be able to visit a good many lodges along the way.

As most other proud fraternal brothers, I generally always wear my ring especially when I travel.. Quite often people ask me about it. Some with questions, some expressing thanks for help they or someone they know received, or from other lodge members. 99.9% of the time has been positive or at least neutral, the other .01% where just people who had only heard about but never experienced interactions with the lodge or its members.

Aside from conspiracy theory forums, just from experience, the major consensus seems to be positive towards the lodge and its members.

Just my two cents..

reply to post by KSigMason


Hear hear, I find some of the things about Freemasonry are complete and utter hogwash. It does not teach or advocate Sun & Moon worship. Freemasonry does not have anything in any of it's teachings that deals with sex magic. This is a lunacy based on people equating the work of Crowley to all Masons. While he may have been a controversial, if you are looking for an order he actually influenced, try Ordo Templi Orientis. That is where the true origins of the 'sex magic' lie started. Teachings of Ordo Templi Orientis, are not to be confused with teachings of Freemasonry, simply because Crowley was a Mason. Crowley actually had a hand in several occult and secret societies, and was prone to any number of combined influences.

Stars for Josh and yourself. I think it's nice to see Masons take an active pride in debunking the nonsense propagated by the propaganda.

reply to post by AussieDingus


Neither; you should only be willing to take the word of a Mason that will readily identify himself as such. Do these people provide lodge numbers, or any other kind of pertinent information that could confirm that they are in fact Masons? If not, and they seek only to promote disinformation, you can be assured that they have an agenda at hand. Can I tell you why the Elite don't want people to be Masons? It's all very simple. They are afraid of what might happen if too many people open their third eye.

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR, transmissions will resume
They'll try to, push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
And hope that, we will never see the truth around
(So come on)
Another promise, another seed
Another, packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
And all the, green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless, red tape to keep the truth confined

(So come on)
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Interchanging mind control
Come let the, revolution takes its toll
If you could, flick the switch and open your third eye
You'd see that, we should never be afraid to die
(So come on)
Rise up and take the power back
It's time the, fat cats had a heart attack
They know that, their time's coming to an end
We have to, unify and watch our flag ascend

(So come on) They will not force us They will stop degrading us They will not control us We will be victorious So come on

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Originally posted by AussieDingus

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by hymey

 

But you keep reading that literature and listening to your preacher. I am sure they know more than an actual member.

Some of the "literature" available also contains information and allegations from people claiming to be an actual member. Do we just disregard their information or literature because it may be in a more negative view ? Are we to only accept the word of a Mason when its from a positive point of view of Freemasonry ?

No, as an intelligent individual, anyone should take all the information they can gather, and digest it all, and see what makes sense to them. If you read everything, talk to actual members, and still think that we worship anything other than God, you need to stay as far away from masonry as you can get. I know I am telling the truth. You have no idea. It's your job as an interested individual to filter what I and others say and find YOUR truth in there somewhere.

But I would be wrong for not telling my side of it and just letting the folks with an ax to grind tell you what kind of things I do.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by AussieDingus

 

Neither; you should only be willing to take the word of a Mason that will readily identify himself as such. Do these people provide lodge numbers, or any other kind of pertinent information that could confirm that they are in fact Masons? If not, and they seek only to promote disinformation, you can be assured that they have an agenda at hand. Can I tell you why the Elite don't want people to be Masons? It's all very simple. They are afraid of what might happen if too many people open their third eye.

They have identified themselves no worse, or better, then anyone else i've spoken to on here claiming to be a Mason.

As for the third eye being opened, does that mean that Freemasonry teaches one how to use the third eye ? If opening the third eye is such a threat to the Elite, then if it is a secret, then why keep it secret and why not reveal how to open the third eye to all ? What would happen if too many people opened their third eye ?

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR, transmissions will resume
They'll try to, push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
And hope that, we will never see the truth around
(So come on)
Another promise, another seed
Another, packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
And all the, green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless, red tape to keep the truth confined

(So come on)
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Interchanging mind control
Come let the, revolution takes its toll
If you could, flick the switch and open your third eye
You'd see that, we should never be afraid to die
(So come on)
Rise up and take the power back
It's time the, fat cats had a heart attack
They know that, their time's coming to an end
We have to, unify and watch our flag ascend

(So come on) They will not force us They will stop degrading us They will not control us We will be victorious So come on

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

edit on 21-11-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by AussieDingus

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by hymey

 

But you keep reading that literature and listening to your preacher. I am sure they know more than an actual member.

Some of the "literature" available also contains information and allegations from people claiming to be an actual member. Do we just disregard their information or literature because it may be in a more negative view ? Are we to only accept the word of a Mason when its from a positive point of view of Freemasonry ?

No, as an intelligent individual, anyone should take all the information they can gather, and digest it all, and see what makes sense to them. If you read everything, talk to actual members, and still think that we worship anything other than God, you need to stay as far away from masonry as you can get. I know I am telling the truth. You have no idea. It's your job as an interested individual to filter what I and others say and find YOUR truth in there somewhere.

But I would be wrong for not telling my side of it and just letting the folks with an ax to grind tell you what kind of things I do.

I am trying to find my truth. But what is truth, is it internal, or collective ? I do believe what you are saying, but i don't believe it 100% and that is nothing personal towards you. Thats just part of the learning process. Consider ALL possibilites, but eliminate the possibilites based on least likely to most likely. I take you for your word, just like i take all claiming to be a Mason on their word.

reply to post by AussieDingus


But that is a really irresponsible way of accepting information. If I said I was a CIA agent that witnessed Bush plan 9/11 or that Obama didn't really kill Osama, would that not require the given credentials so as to ascertain there is some credible proof to my theory? If you go into proving that they are in fact masons, then you have already taken a gigantic step towards showing the legitimacy of their accusations. However, to refuse to do so and blindly accept detrimental accusations made by seemingly an unnamed nobody, then you are not denying ignorance to any extent of the definition.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Being that the Masonic 'secrets' are 5 handshakes and 5 passwords how could you knowing them or not either benefit or harm you respectively?

Hi, thats a good question, but its also one i can't answer as i don't know what the handshakes stand for or if the passwords have some great meaning or not, do you see my problem, why would you want to keep these 'secrets' a secret if they aren't important?

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by AussieDingus

 

But that is a really irresponsible way of accepting information. If I said I was a CIA agent that witnessed Bush plan 9/11 or that Obama didn't really kill Osama, would that not require the given credentials so as to ascertain there is some credible proof to my theory? If you go into proving that they are in fact masons, then you have already taken a gigantic step towards showing the legitimacy of their accusations. However, to refuse to do so and blindly accept detrimental accusations made by seemingly an unnamed nobody, then you are not denying ignorance to any extent of the definition.

edit on 24-11-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)

Why is it an irresponsible way of thinking ? It is just a process of gathering as much information as i can and eliminating the posiibilities from least likely to most likely, or what seems more likely. Isn't that how the human brain usually works ?

You could say that you were a CIA agent that witnessed Bush's plans for 9/11 or that Obama really did kill Osama, but then the brain would look into the credibility of your claims. There are MANY clear contradictions and holes in the official 9/11 story, and the more holes there are, then the more the human brain will start to question what is being classed as official. As for Osama, why hasn't Pakistan been targeted in the 'war on terror' for 'harbouring' a known terrorist ? Why did the FBI say that the reason their Top 10 Most Wanted site had no mention or charges on Osama for involvement in 9/11 was because that they had NO evidence ?

If someone claims to be a Mason on here, then at first i will assume that they are, because only a liar would claim to be one when they aren't, and would more than likely be someone with some sort of mental problem that makes them think its acceptable behaviour. Or, they could just bored trouble makers who think its a fun way to pass time. You are implying that i blindly accept detrimental accusations from an unnamed nobody, But what detrimental accusations have i blindly accepted and accused Mason's or Freemasonry of ? I have some personal opinions on both, but i have never made or believed 100% in any accustaion made. You are assuming that i believe anything negative about Freemasonry, yet question anything positive, yet you couldn't be more wrong if you tried to be. What if i was to think that there may be an inner circle within the society that has its own agenda all while operating under the banner of Freemasonry, thats not a direct attack or blaming of Freemasonry in general, thats just questioning what may, or may not be happening within the society. And i will remind you that everyone on internet sites like this is a seemingly unnamed nobody, including you and me, therefore no ones word can be taken as 100% fact on sites such as this, Mason or not. but their opinions can still be taken in and considered without fully committing to it as gospel truth, and while still considering other possiblities.

You may class this way of thinking as the opposite of the definition of denying ignorance, and you're entitlted to your opinion, but in my opinion a society that claims to be free thinkers while denying membership to someone who may believe that there is no Supreme Being is also the opposite of the definition of denying ignorance. Or does Freemasonry reveal to its members with undeniable truth that there IS a Supreme Being which then eliminates any possibility of there not being a Supreme Being ?

Originally posted by Minnie1985
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Being that the Masonic 'secrets' are 5 handshakes and 5 passwords how could you knowing them or not either benefit or harm you respectively?

Hi, thats a good question, but its also one i can't answer as i don't know what the handshakes stand for or if the passwords have some great meaning or not, do you see my problem, why would you want to keep these 'secrets' a secret if they aren't important?

Because, in order for you to learn what we teach, you have to come to us and ask. That way we know that you are ready to hear what we teach. We are only holding the information we have from those who are not ready, or interested in hearing it.

reply to post by network dude

Because, in order for you to learn what we teach, you have to come to us and ask. That way we know that you are ready to hear what we teach. We are only holding the information we have from those who are not ready, or interested in hearing it.

As a woman would i be able to ask?

you say you are only holding the info you have from those who are not ready, how do you decide if they are ready? you also hold it from those not interested in hearing it, how can they show and interest in something they know nothing about?

please don't think i'm being awkward because i'm really not, i genuinely want to try and understand the need for the secrecy you hold,

thank you