Forcing People to Pay for The Contraception and Abortion of Women is a Right for Women?

reply to post by FreebirdGirl



Not to mention that the left is now even trying to make a law that allows parents to kill already born babies, even those that have no health issues at all...

Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued.

The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.

The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.

They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

BTW, the above article is wrong in claiming that the paper only says it is okay to kill born babies with only health issues, I have linked the paper before and it clearly says that even those babies with no deformities or other health problems can be killed...

Do note however how the prof in the article claims this right to kill even born babies is a "value of a LIBERAL society"...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Calm down.

You can go to the health department and they will give you a whole bag of them. It’s nothing new.

I needed that laugh.

A whole bag of them which has been paid from donations, there is no mandate that forces people to pay for condoms... And if there are institutions using tax payer dollars to pay for condoms, then these people should be held accountable for breaking the law...

You have no Idea how much my girl and I had sex. The only thing criminal may have been some of the things we did.

You should really lighten up life is too short. It is just some friendly advice.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

First of all, since when is that an excuse to add another freedom being taken from Americans?...

Second of all, what exactly are you talking about?... The wars?... First of all, the taxes used to pay for the miltiary, is for the protection of every American, whether you believe those wars were wrong or right is another story and for another discussion.

You might want to claim "this is only a religious belief", but I don't follow any particular religion. In fact, I haven't even been to church in ages. It is not a religious belief, it is a moral, and logical belief.

You might want to claim that a human fetus is not a developed person, but neither are babies that have been born and little children...

As humans we are developing ALL OF OUR LIVES, and as such we are a constantly evolving beings, and so are human fetuses.

WOW. So Drone killing pregnant mothers in 3rd world countries is fine,

for the protection of every American

but providing contaception/abortions in America is immoral?

Okay really basic lesson in Biology in the context of this thread:

(Unprotected) Penis + (Unprotected) Vagina
___________________________________ = Pregnancy that is a woman's responsibility only
Two Consenting Parties


Wait... I'm sure there is something wrong with that equation....

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Honestly, I don't understand your rage.

My daughter is in her late 30's and because of medical issues, she can't take the pill any longer. She has an IUD. She has excellent insurance, but her co-pay was $600 to have this device inserted. How many people can afford that?

Here's the thing though, she has been bleeding 24/7 for over six months, and wants to have the thing removed, but she and her husband can't afford to have it taken out, and pay for a new birth control system.

You must think that birth control is easy, and everybody can afford to pay through the nose, but they can't. Women carry the responsibility for birth control, and requiring that insurance cover it isn't taking any rights away from you.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
..
There is no mandate because as long as the doctor says it's for medical reasons Viagra is covered. This option is not available for women on Medicare. These guys paid into the system that is true but women pay into that system also. I have yet to hear anyone complain about Viagra. This is a classic double standard.

Is viagra being used to kill babies?

You might disagree with my opinion that abortions are killing babies, but that is YOUR opinion, and a misguided one.

You might want to claim "this is only a religious belief", but I don't follow any particular religion. In fact, I haven't even been to church in ages. It is not a religious belief, it is a moral, and logical belief.

You might want to claim that a human fetus is not a developed person, but neither are babies that have been born and little children...

As humans we are developing ALL OF OUR LIVES, and as such we are a constantly evolving beings, and so are human fetuses.

WoW Guess you would rather pay 10 times more for supporting unwanted children that are on welfare or that are in an orphanage . I am still blown back this statement you made . wow

Originally posted by rgzing

I demand free condoms. If women do not have to pay for contraceptives then I should be able to pick up a box of condoms for free. It is discrimination and racist. Give me condoms or give me death.

I'm all for it.

Oh wait - - Planned Parenthood already provides free condoms.

Of course Romney wants to do away with Planned Parenthood.

Originally posted by Grimpachi

You have no Idea how much my girl and I had sex. The only thing criminal may have been some of the things we did.

You should really lighten up life is too short. It is just some friendly advice.

I really don't care how much sex you and you girl have, and it is YOUR problem and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, please learn the meaning of that word, if your girl gets pregnant.

BTW, you have no idea of whom I am, and what I have done, in fact I am certain I have done more with my life, and in my life, as well as having seen more of the world than you have. So stop trying to be patronizing, and trying to imply that you are so cool because of your difference of opinion from mine...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


For all the experience you have had in your lifetime and places you've traveled...have you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy? You yourself carrying a baby?

Originally posted by Pedro4077

WOW. So Drone killing pregnant mothers in 3rd world countries is fine, but providing contaception/abortions in America is immoral?

First of all, where in the world have I said it is okay to kill women in the way you mentioned?... Please learn to stay within the context of the discussion, instead of inventing red herrings which really just show you have no argument at all.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog


Where did I write that a woman getting pregnant is only the responsibility of the mother?...

I even told another member that if his girl gets pregnant because of their unprotective sex practices it is HIS responsibility as well...

reply to post by windword


I am sorry for what your daughter is going through, but still this gives you, nor her the right to make every other American pay for her contraceptives or abortions if she ever has one.

Condoms are unexpensive, they are about $5 U.S. dollars for 12, and there are even offers of good brand names being sold in bulk, for example 100 condoms for $24.95.
www.discountcondomking.com...

I have had many relationships, and have had sex with them, including with my present partner, and ALWAYS made sure I was protected so as to not have an unwanted pregnancy.

It is the responsibility of EACH AND EVERY person to be protected at all times against unwanted pregnancies instead of puting that responsibility upon others...

These days a lot of people do not understand the meaning of the word "responsibility". It isn't the responsibility of other Americans to pay for the contraceptive needs, or for the abortions of other women.

I am sorry, but what your daughter is going through is no excuse to force other Americans to pay for her contraceptive needs, or even to pay for any possible abortions.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The entire thread? Where have you brought up the responsibility of men beyond letting tax paying men get Viagra (presumably to be used to have sex which is the process that makes babies)? You said that it was "the choices of women" to get pregnant without ever mentioning the choice of the men who also participated.

You are also stating that providing contraceptives and abortions to women only benefit women and thus, is a discriminatory tax against men. Do men not benefit as well from contraceptives/abortions because it saves them from having to provide support to the children they may not have intended to have? Or paying the taxes that go into the social systems to provide for "welfare" children?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by FreebirdGirl

 

Not to mention that the left is now even trying to make a law that allows parents to kill already born babies, even those that have no health issues at all...

Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued.


The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.

The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.

They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

BTW, the above article is wrong in claiming that the paper only says it is okay to kill born babies with only health issues, I have linked the paper before and it clearly says that even those babies with no deformities or other health problems can be killed...

Do note however how the prof in the article claims this right to kill even born babies is a "value of a LIBERAL society"...

edit on 25-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

The bottom line is - it still boils down to you enforcing what you think is right based on your moral values or beliefs on another. No one is forcing women to take contraceptives or have abortions; however you want to deny the choice altogether. Your right to do this is based on what? What you think is best. Left or Right I call that UnAmerican. Remember one big melting pot. America can not survive as a land that accepts all with open arms and not live up to those principles. So let's be honest here. What kind of country do we want?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I never asked you what you have done in your life. Maybe you have done more but from what you described I really don’t think so. I could be wrong however that response you made sounds full of insecurity. Just saying.

As far as responsibility you are way off. We took responsibility by not bringing unwanted children into the world. I think you are way off your mark. This seems more and more a religious issue than anything else and not really about taxes at all.

My stance on this entire issue is that it does not infringe on any persons rights if the courts decide otherwise I may change my mind after hearing the reasons why but until then I hear the drums you are banging but it sounds hollow.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Condoms are the most unreliable form of birth control. Get real and step into real life.

These abortions that your so against, an IUD causes spontaneous abortions, as does the pill. Get over it. Insurance is a pool, a gamble. Everybody pays into to it to get medically required prescriptions and care. Birth control falls into that category. Obamacare (The Affordable Care Act) simply insures that women's reproductive issues are covered by their employer provided insurance, other private insurance or Medicare.

I don't see why your panties are in such a knot over this very serious and very real issue.

Its a female major health care issue. And not doing so makes you (this isn't acutally to the OP, but to anyone in general and the US in particular) preschool age apparently, for all the first world understands what intrinsic equality means.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Abortion is about $350 dollars what's a lifetime on welfare costing us? I think personally they should hand out contraceptives right at the border between US and Mexico...if I lived there near the border, I'd leave some out for them.

I changed my original post because it wasn't saying what I thought it was saying in the OP

Isn't Viagra covered under that too?

Isn't the larger issue, that contraceptives aren't available at a reasonable price?

Why does the government have to subsidize it at all? Seems to me the only people actually making money are the pharmaceutical companies.

~Tenth

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I understand your political point, but there's a practical one here as well.

Contraceptive costs what, thirty bucks a month? Whereas a child born into poverty and living on welfare costs a lot more.

Personally, I think we should hand out prophylactics like candy.

It isn't just a political point, it is a freedom point as well. It is my right to not accept being forced to pay for what some people believe is their right.

Whether another child is born into poverty it is the responsibility of the parents, it is not my responsibility, and it shouldn't be forced on me, and millions of other Americans.

We are in the 21st century, everyone knows that when a man and a woman are having sex during the time frame that the woman can have children, there is a high risk for her to get pregnant.

There are also organizations which are "pro-choice" who have been paying for contraceptives for other women.

If you want free contraceptives for other women then make a charity that gathers DONATIONS from people who agree with this view, instead of FORCING every American to pay for contraceptives and abortions.

edit on 25-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

So based on your logic, we can assume that agree with every other elective medical procedure.....or is this just the one you chose to rant about?