Forcing People to Pay for The Contraception and Abortion of Women is a Right for Women?

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posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by onecraftydude
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The reason you are up in arms about this is because you have been talking to other "Pro-Lifers" after church and now you are upset at your government because they are not holding YOUR values as sacred like you do.


LOL Again, another one making ASSumptions... I don't go to ANY church... In fact I think most religions have SOME truth in them, and I think that some ways of life, such as Buddhism also have some truth in them...

BTW, just for your information years back when I was searching for myself, and looking for some answers I took refuge with a Buddhist monk to learn about Buddhism, but never took the vows because I disagree with some Buddhist views which you have to vow to uphold to become a TRUE Buddhist...

For example, ALL LIFE is sacred to a TRUE Buddhist, including mosquitoes and even if that mosquito could be carrying some lethal disease. If you are a TRUE Buddhist you can't kill that mosquito.

That's how much you know about me...



Originally posted by onecraftydude
You may not like to hear this, but abortion and contraceptives were directly correlated to the drop in crime over the past 20 years! I hear all the time of the pro-lifer movement saying a life begins at the time of fertilization of the egg. I disagree, but whatever.


Oh please... they also claimed that taking away people's weapons would reduce crime and the opposite has occurred...


Originally posted by onecraftydude
My point is that you cannot argue that you would take care of all the unwanted children without involving government! You had your chance for over 200 years and it never happened. Now women have a choice when they make a mistake or get raped. You want to take that away because of your religious views and that is wrong.


Aaaah...so for SOME women to have a choice, mine, and that of millions of people, have to be taken away?... And you think that's a good argument?...



Originally posted by onecraftydude
Go to Africa for a week. Live in Haiti in camps for a week. Visit other nations who do not have contraception and see what it looks like. You might have a change of heart when you see all the unwanted children turned into animals to survive.


I have lived, and experienced life in Cuba and there women are no given any contraceptives... Heck most of the time the doctors have to give you aspirin, if they have any, and send you home...

BTW, before you start claiming "you only lived in Cuba, or just the US. blah blah blah" excuse some people use, I have also lived for 9 years in Europe. In fact I lived most of my adolescent life in Europe and went to school there. I have also gone to school and college in the U.S. and travelled all over the U.S. as well as lived in several states.

Not to mention my life in the Navy. I have seen and experienced things a lot of people don't see or experience.

Anyway, I also disagree that people should be FORCED to pay for the healthcare of others... Americans in general are generous enough that donations can pay for, and cover the healthcare needs of people who TRULY need healthcare.

Most of those who have responded to this thread obviously don't understand the difference between helping people out of the goodness of your heart, and as a FREE CHOICE, and FORCING people to do what some think should be FORCED upon others...

Many of you talk about those in power FORCING you to do things, or pay for things you don't want to do... Yet ALL OF YOU want to do the same thing... Go figure...

edit on 26-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by MonkeyFishFrog

For all the experience you have had in your lifetime and places you've traveled...have you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy? You yourself carrying a baby?


First of all I am a man... and my girlfriend and I have had sex, and continue to have and but we always make sure we are protected. I have been in several relationships, and even been married. In my 40 years of life experience never have I made my partner pregnant unless we wanted to, and yes we are able to have children we just choose not to at this time.

Have you ever experience what millions of couples experience not being able to conceive a child?...

How about puting the child you don't want for adoption instead of resorting to murdering the fetus?


You being a man was the point of my post because an unwanted pregnancy is an experience you will never personally have.

Yes. I was diagnosed with infertility caused by Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome at 18.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Anyway, I also disagree that people should be FORCED to pay for the healthcare of others... Americans in general are generous enough that donations can pay for, and cover the healthcare needs of people who TRULY need healthcare.

Most of those who have responded to this thread obviously don't understand the difference between helping people out of the goodness of your heart, and as a FREE CHOICE, and FORCING people to do what some think should be FORCED upon others...

Many of you talk about those in power FORCING you to do things, or pay for things you don't want to do... Yet ALL OF YOU want to do the same thing... Go figure...

edit on 26-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


The point we are making is that we all put money in the pot, which helps the cost go down for all of us. So, we ALL benefit from everyone putting money in the pot. After that, it's no one's business what goes on between each individual and their healthcare provider.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 






I have lived, and experienced life in Cuba and there women are no given any contraceptives... Heck most of the time the doctors have to give you aspirin, if they have any, and send you home...


Okay, now you're just either making things up or pulling your facts out of you nether regions.


Cuba accepts and supports since 1959, the sovereign right of women and their partners to freely decide their reproduction issues. The State guarantees, through our health system, the necessary attention before and after birth, in cases of infertility or when birth is not desired. In such cases, the State guarantees the right to decide, allowing recourse to contraceptives. Similarly, the right to abort is the right of women and their partners, and that is why they are offered this institutional service with a high level of medical safety. 1

It is important to remember that the “right to abortion” and “safe abortions” are terms which are used by anti-life organizations such as IPPF in its strategies. According to media reports, births in Cuba have decreased from 250,000 in 1963 to 192,000 in 1975 and 152,000 in 1993.2
www.pop.org...


You have just all credibility with me.



edit on 26-10-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by MonkeyFishFrog

You being a man was the point of my post because an unwanted pregnancy is an experience you will never personally have.

Yes. I was diagnosed with infertility caused by Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome at 18.


So now you are trying to use the fact that I am a man as an excuse that I can't have my own point of view on this? Or that somehow my views do not matter?...


But I guess the views of those men who agree with you do matter... right?...



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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You being a man was the point of my post because an unwanted pregnancy is an experience you will never personally have.

Yes. I was diagnosed with infertility caused by Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome at 18.


Off topic, but I have PCOS, too. I was also diagnosed infertile.

My son will be 7 in June.

If someday you decide to have kids, you might not be as infertile as the docs have led you to believe.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


I do quite fine with my reading comprehension, thank you very much. Like your thread title... which only mentions women in its name. And yes, there was that one post admonishing one man about his activities in the bedroom with his girlfriend, but you offer no plan or program that would enforce responsibility of ALL men into taking care of (financially or otherwise) the consequences of a pregnancy. What do you suggest happen if a woman goes to the man who impregnated her, tells them she's pregnant, and he disappears into the night? How do you think situations like that should be handled where the responsibility is, as always, left to the woman?



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by MonkeyFishFrog

You being a man was the point of my post because an unwanted pregnancy is an experience you will never personally have.

Yes. I was diagnosed with infertility caused by Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome at 18.


So now you are trying to use the fact that I am a man as an excuse that I can't have my own point of view on this? Or that somehow my views do not matter?...


But I guess the views of those men who agree with you do matter... right?...


What if I was? You seem fine focusing entirely on a woman's contribution to this issue but seem very unconcerned with what a man's is.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by windword
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You have just all credibility with me.


Really?...

Please use your head once in a while... In Cuba people barely have food to eat, and the bodegas are almost always empty, and NEVER fully stocked yet you want to claim that the Cuban government has enough money for contraceptives?... Well, they actually do have money but they don't pay or give any contraceptive... I know because I have family there...

I am sure you also believe the lie that Cubans have the best healthcare in the world...


THAT IS WHAT THE REGIME WANT IGNORANT PEOPLE TO THINK...

BTW, is that why they don't allow any independent Human Right Groups to investigate what really happens in Cuba?...

This is why for example, when some foreigners try to record what truly happens in Cuba they get called "anti-castristas" and "anti-revolutionary", and are treated like criminals like the following...


The arrest of two Czech women puts further strain on Czech-Cuban relations

02-02-2006 14:40 | Daniela Lazarová

Relations between the Czech Republic and Cuba have been strained for some time, after a number of diplomatic spats. Tensions between the two states have risen further since the arrest last week of two Czech women - including former Miss Czech Republic Helena Houdova - while they were taking photographs of a slum area.

The two Czech women were detained by police as they were taking photographs of a poverty ridden district in Havana. "There was a lot of shouting as we were dragged off - and one of the officers shouted that we were terrorists", Helena Houdova said later. She and her psychologist friend Mariana Kroftova made the trip to Havana to ascertain how children on the island could benefit from their charity work. Mariana Kroftova says she thought the eleven hours they spent in detention would never end:

"They took us to a police station where nobody spoke to us or properly explained what was going on. We were just able to make out that we were accused of engaging in counter-revolutionary activities against the Cuban regime. What was worse they refused to let us call the Czech embassy. So we spent the 11 hours without knowing what our fate would be."

The two women were eventually released at 3am after pledging in writing that they would not engage in any counter-revolutionary activities in Cuba. Both remained under house arrest until leaving the country. The Czech Foreign Ministry has described their treatment as a flagrant violation of international law. Richard Krpac is from the ministry's press department:
...
Asked why the women were arrested the charge d'affaires said it was because they had "deliberately waged a campaign against Cuba in cooperation with Cuban dissidents[s/zie]". This is a standard line used in connection with many Czechs who visit the island. Many are refused entry on the suspicion that they plan to meet with Cuban dissidents. Two Czechs -a member of Parliament and an NGO worker who did - spent 3 weeks in a Cuban jail in 2001.

A one time communist ally of Cuba - the Czech Republic is now seen as a dangerous adversary. Ever since the fall of communism in 1989, Prague has been vocal in supporting human rights on the island and is one of the leading proponents of a tougher international stance against the Castro regime. In spite of the worsened relations the Czech Foreign Ministry says it expects Cuba to respect international law.

www.radio.cz...

All those claims that you read about how wonderful the healthcare system in Cuba is, and how wonderfull life in Cuba is ARE LIES... It is what the regime in Cuba wants the outside world to believe, but it is not what happens in reality...

And you know what?... it is YOUR opinion that is worthless, I actually know what life is like in Cuba for the Cuban people...

I still have family in Cuba, including two half sisters, a grandmother, aunts and uncles, two of which are doctors, cousins and other family members. We have been in contact whenever possible, and last time I was there was in the year 2000, and not as a tourist, I lived with my family, not in a tourist 5 star hotel like all non-Cuban tourists do.

edit on 26-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog
 


No, your reading comprehension is really bad...

The new mandate guarantees WOMEN, not MEN'S, contraceptives and abortion, and last I checked it is WOMEN who do abortions, not MEN... Not only that but I wrote for like the tenth time now, that a woman getting pregnant is also the responsibility of the man who got her pregnant. HOWEVER the mandate is not about MEN... it is about WOMEN... Hence the title...

You see, your reading comprehension is REALLY BAD...



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


"Values" my backside...
What a dishonest and cruel joke that line of thinking is.
It is valueless and moral-less.

Couple cents now to pay for this...




Saves many women having to terminate this...



(And if "human life" were really what the discussion was about - it would end here but they even put up a stink about providing the B/C pills which would lower the abortion rate. It's not about saving as many little fetus's as we can. It is a hot ticket political agenda designed to distract, inflame and divide)


Which is still better than this...


U.S. CHILD POVERTY RATE SOARS TO 20%; 35%+ FOR BLACKS & NATIVE AMERICANS… RIGHT BLAMES OBAMA

Or this...




Or this...




And maybe she is right?



Because this is really unfair to our children...




And if you are not for this...


And if you cannot bring yourself to end this life...



How can you possibly support this?




Or this?




And why is it wrong to terminate this...



But OK for them...




Or this...




To take this life?




Remember...



edit on 26-10-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


Kudos Newcovenant!!!! This says it all.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by MonkeyFishFrog

For all the experience you have had in your lifetime and places you've traveled...have you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy? You yourself carrying a baby?


First of all I am a man... and my girlfriend and I have had sex, and continue to have and but we always make sure we are protected. I have been in several relationships, and even been married. In my 40 years of life experience never have I made my partner pregnant unless we wanted to, and yes we are able to have children we just choose not to at this time.

Have you ever experience what millions of couples experience not being able to conceive a child?...

How about puting the child you don't want for adoption instead of resorting to murdering the fetus?


Wow - that knocked me down. You're 40?

That doesn't come across in your posts.

I cannot have children - my partner and I would be fantastic parents. I would love a baby....

But, I am not so selfish in my need to have a child that I would remove the right of abortion from the rest of my gender in order to provide myself and my partner (and couples like us) with viable infants to lavish our affections on...

I may not believe in abortion - but I absolutely believe abortion should be available for women and girls.

My family fosters young children - sub 10 yrs old - and these children are broken from their backgrounds and the activities their mothers engaged in during pregnancy.

They suffer.

Their emotional and physical development is stunted in varied levels and in differing ways.

We have had one boy who cannot still speak properly at age 10 - his mother never engaged with him in the first few months. One who was mentally impaired as his mother could not give up the bottle for a day of her pregnancy.

One who could not understand that the toilet was the only acceptable place to defecate. One whose body was so scarred by her mother, it will never heal. Another who overdosed on drugs left lying on the floor of the family lounge.

Most of them have been absolutely rejected by their parents who cannot cope with the number of children they have. They'd prefer their children were in care than to have to care.

None of the children are happy - all of them are absolutely emotionally cut apart by the fact that they are rejected by their birth parents. No matter how much they have been abused...they cannot cope with the fact that their parents do not want them. Instead, they focus on the future...when their parents will want them and when they are coming to take them home. They do not lose this hurt - no matter how they try to rationalise. I know that their parents will never come from them and that they will go from foster carer to foster carer. And, no matter how we all care for them - they are more likely to follow the pattern of their parents' lives.

This is the kind of suffering we should be preventing through good prophylactic contraception programmes, education, access to emergency contraception...and in extreme cases...access to abortion.

I'd rather deal with an unwanted pregnancy than an unwanted child.

But I'd focus on absolutely reducing the unwanted pregnancies through great education and contraception to reduce abortion rates.

I am happy to pay taxes to support the reproductive rights - of men and women. I have been in an abortion clinic and not one woman there that I spoke to was there because she wanted to be. They were there because they needed help. They were there and it was not an easy decision for them.

Much of the pressure to have an abortion is economic. There is a range of statistics that show that women who have abortions tedns to come from low income families, and women from minority backgrounds tend have more abortions than causcasians - is this due to the economic freedoms that education offers women?

It hurts to have an abortion, both physically and mentally. We should seek to support and understand women going through this. Not one woman I know who has had an abortion has taken it lightly.

I believe that our society needs safe and regulated abortion to be available for women who find themselves facing a very difficult life event.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


First of all, the mandate is for both contraceptives AND abortion...

Second of all, I am not saying contraceptives or abortion should be banned...

If you believe in killing your own baby that is your problem. I am not going to FORCE you to accept my view, but why do I have to accept YOURS or even BE FORCED to pay for it?...

Nice try to garner more support by making red herrings...


BTW, the elites also want not only population control but depopulation, do you want to side with them



"for the children" like you claim your view is all about?...


edit on 26-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by newcovenant
 


First of all, the mandate is for both contraceptives AND abortion...

Second of all, I am not saying contraceptives or abortion should be banned...

If you believe in killing your own baby that is your problem. I am not going to FORCE you to accept my view, but why do I have to accept YOURS or even BE FORCED to pay for it?...

Nice try to garner more support by making red herrings...


BTW, the elites also want not only population control but depopulation, do you want to side with them



"for the children" like you claim your view is all about?...


edit on 26-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


I still cant believe you're 40. This isnt helping....



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by selfharmonise

Wow - that knocked me down. You're 40?

That doesn't come across in your posts.



That must be all the evidence you need to support your view and want to refute mine...





Originally posted by selfharmonise
But, I am not so selfish in my need to have a child that I would remove the right of abortion from the rest of my gender in order to provide myself and my partner (and couples like us) with viable infants to lavish our affections on...


How about you SHOW ME where I wrote that abortion should be banned...

Do you not understand the difference with millions of people like me not wanting to be FORCED to pay for YOUR VIEWS, and the views of a few other people?...

Do you not understand the difference between FREE CHOICE and being FORCED to do what you don't want to be FORCED to do?...

BTW, you know NOTHING about me, so keep to yourself your stupid claims about me being selfish because you have no idea of what in the world you are talking about.

Get off your damn high horse and stop being so patronising and I will change my tone...



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


What freedom is being taken away exactly???



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
reply to post by newcovenant
 


Kudos Newcovenant!!!! This says it all.



Thanks FreebirdGirl...
And I've been meaning to compliment your really great response to me in another thread but haven't got around to it yet. I'll get there.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


Great post, I think you just put the entire debate to bed :-)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


There are a lot of things I am forced indirectly to support and pay for which I don't support in any way shape or form. War is one of them. I am a conscientious objector. Do I have a right to make certain not a penny of my tax dollars is spent on defense or on killing strangers in strange lands?
I have no interest in going to the moon or to outer space for that matter. I think we have enough issues to deal with before we go frittering away money we don't have - and there we are, with a space program (still) so costly it could feed the world. I don't want a dime of my government revenues to go toward a Federal Health Care program for politicians yet there they are COVERED under a Federal benefits program...when I myself don't have health care. It is nothing short of outrageous. I think we send a lot of money to support Israel. I don't remember anyone asking me. I'd rather put that money in the school programs being cut. You get the idea, don't you?
edit on 26-10-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)





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