My Sister, The Conservative Christian

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

She lived her own life for several years without you and then you come along and tell her she's got to change her way. That's actually poor form.

I haven't told her anything. But how do you make things better if you stick to the way they are? I thought the children were our future, not our prison. Just more of the same...and we can all see how well that's worked out. Hell, if conservatives had had their way, slaves would still exist, women would still be stuck in the kitchen, we'd still be working factory jobs and coming home unstatisfied every day, alcohol would be prohibited, music would be banned, the Bible would be required reading material, dancing would be considered the work of the devil, you would get smacked for asking questions, and only the rich and privileged would have a chance of making their dreams come true.

Oh wait, that's STILL happening. Guess the conservatives won after all, right? I'm not going to tell her what to do. That's her decision. But I can hope that she still retains some spark of originality, and won't just copy everything everyone else does because it guarantees that she'll actually get awesome opportunities if she mindlessly mimics the rest of the cattle.

Sometimes there are some pretty intelligent 18 year olds out there.

And really, it's not wrong to be part of a large group. If that's how a person wants to be, then why begrudge that?

it's pretty arrogant to try to change people's beliefs and opinions.

Oh, so then there's nothing wrong with being an Islamic terrorist.

The status quo conservatives are unproductive because they are afraid of change, which is to be afraid of life itself. It's my opinion, and unlike my sister, I think I've defended it pretty damn well. And if you are conservative, you're welcome to that philosophy. I'll pick you up on my way to the future.

reply to post by VoidHawk

I dont like labels as much as the next person. People call me an Athiest because I dont believe and it annoys me, I'm not an athiest, I'm a person who does not believe, attaching a label to me suggests I am...something!.

On that tack, you ARE something. Lack of one thing means abudance of something else. An atheist is simply a person who fails to see the divinity in science because we've completely mangled the idea of divinity and spirituality. The current parameters for "divinity" and "science" are incompatible, which is probably why we chose those parameters. It's understandable.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Maybe like your quote says consevativism promotes continuity and stability.Something she feels she never got from your parents but got from her adoptive parents.She will not make their mistakes.
Is that really that bad?

reply to post by VoidHawk


I wouldn't use a word like sheeple. Other than that, I don't really have a clue.

I'm against blind faith as much as anyone, but I just don't see the big deal.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Oh, so then there's nothing wrong with being an Islamic terrorist.

The status quo conservatives are unproductive because they are afraid of change, which is to be afraid of life itself. It's my opinion, and unlike my sister, I think I've defended it pretty damn well. And if you are conservative, you're welcome to that philosophy. I'll pick you up on my way to the future.

It's not the religious belief that bothers.

It's the fact they they want to impose their belief onto people through violence and intimidation that bothers me.

I am neither conservative nor liberal.

And BTW, I hate the definition of conservative being the status quo and hating change. Because if you think of it, it means that eventually everybody will become a conservative.

You see, if liberals are for change, here is the problem. Once they get things changed their way, they will fight to keep that change status quo.

So that means they cease being liberal and become conservative. Which is why I think it's a very poor definition, and one of course, is just another feel good by tearing somebody else down definition.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

It's not the religious belief that bothers.

It's the fact they they want to impose their belief onto people through violence and intimidation that bothers me.

Their religion is simply a symptom of their political views. And their political views are a symptom of wanting to take the easy road because you are more readily rewarded for such behavior. And that's all it is - the easiest path of survival. No rewards for being yourself, only rewards for pleasing the people who influence your footsteps and your thoughts.

And BTW, I hate the definition of conservative being the status quo and hating change. Because if you think of it, it means that eventually everybody will become a conservative.

Didn't you read my other posts? The nature of the universe is motion. Motion means change. Everything breaks down and becomes something else. Nothing is lost, only its purpose changes, and its shape changes to suit that purpose. Likewise, you do not change into something that is unchanging. That's why everyone is unhappy, because they are trying to swim against the stream. Always trying to swim against the stream...

You see, if liberals are for change, here is the problem. Once they get things changed their way, they will fight to keep that change status quo.

Again, incorrect. See, your statement begs the assumption that humans are the only variable capable of change. This is an erroneous belief. The world changes, new things are discovered, new problems arise as we discover new ways of interacting with reality. And as the reality changes, so must we. Conservatives operate under the philosophy that one solution solves all problems. That only one way of living is necessary for all cultures. This is false. Just as one medicine does not cure all illness, one policy will not meet all needs. The only policy that will meet all needs is the one that accepts the change of policy.

So that means they cease being liberal and become conservative. Which is why I think it's a very poor definition, and one of course, is just another feel good by tearing somebody else down definition.

As I have just shown you, you have a poor understanding of the matter.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

I wouldn't use a word like sheeple. Other than that, I don't really have a clue.

I'm against blind faith as much as anyone, but I just don't see the big deal.

Lack of initiative, lack of understanding, lack of mobility. The refusal to change what needs to be changed, the refusal to understand that which doesn't need to be changed, and the refusal move forward with change.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Their religion is simply a symptom of their political views. And their political views are a symptom of wanting to take the easy road because you are more readily rewarded for such behavior. And that's all it is - the easiest path of survival. No rewards for being yourself, only rewards for pleasing the people who influence your footsteps and your thoughts.

No, what you fail to understand is their politics and their religion is inseparable to them, they are one and the same.

Didn't you read my other posts? The nature of the universe is motion. Motion means change. Everything breaks down and becomes something else. Nothing is lost, only its purpose changes, and its shape changes to suit that purpose. Likewise, you do not change into something that is unchanging. That's why everyone is unhappy, because they are trying to swim against the stream. Always trying to swim against the stream...

All of this and what follows is just one big huge strawman. What does any of this have to with your sister being a sheeple? Also, this has nothing to do with this definition of conservative versus liberal. There are many different definition, but this one does keep cropping up from time to time. And you yourself said:

The status quo conservatives are unproductive because they are afraid of change, which is to be afraid of life itself. It's my opinion, and unlike my sister, I think I've defended it pretty damn well. And if you are conservative, you're welcome to that philosophy. I'll pick you up on my way to the future.

As I have just shown you, you have a poor understanding of the matter.

What you have shown me is that you are capable of making a huge strawman argument to change the argument so you can win and tear down people.

Lack of initiative, lack of understanding, lack of mobility. The refusal to change what needs to be changed, the refusal to understand that which doesn't need to be changed, and the refusal move forward with change.

You made the claim, you have to prove it. Not just argue it, prove it. You have to make a case of why this system is wrong for everybody, and not everybody is going to agree with you.

You see, some people like things the way they are and don't see a problem. Some people just want to see things change just for the sake of change. Some just want to tear down other people.

But again, this really has nothing to do with the the thread, and you are derailing your own thread.

Your thread is about how you think your sister is a sheeple just because you saw some random posts on facebook and now you want to raise a big stink.

And a word of advice, don't mess with a bulchitter, because they know a lot about bullchit. You can fool some people, but you can't fool people who know a few things about bullchit.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

No, what you fail to understand is their politics and their religion is inseparable to them, they are one and the same.

How often have you equated a sniffle or a cough with an illness, because you've known it to be a symptom? They may be inseparable, but that does not make them identical.

All of this and what follows is just one big huge strawman. What does any of this have to with your sister being a sheeple?

Easy: she'll be lying on her deathbed and be thinking, "Hmm...I made all these people happy, but what did I do for myself? What made my life worth living? What am I taking with me when I go?"

Nothing but the memories of following in another's footsteps, sis.

What you have shown me is that you are capable of making a huge strawman argument to change the argument so you can win and tear down people.

Huge strawman argument, eh? I believe I've met every single rebuttal you've thrown at me with an admirable defense. You simply can't admit that I have a point. I may not be entirely right, but I do have several points that are valid, and I've made them.

"Strawman argument" has become a phrase to be used when you want to make the other person look bad without having a valid argument to prove it.

[quoe] You made the claim, you have to prove it. Not just argue it, prove it. You have to make a case of why this system is wrong for everybody, and not everybody is going to agree with you.

I have proven it. You have a history of accusing people of having "strawman arguments" for lack of a reasonable argument. In fact, the mere act of saying "that's a strawman argument" is a strawman argument in an of itself. See how that game is played?

I stated my feelings, you challenged them, I defended them, you criticized my defense, I supported my defense, you accuse me of using strawman arguments for lack of anything else to say.

And a word of advice, don't mess with a bulchitter, because they know a lot about bullchit. You can fool some people, but you can't fool people who know a few things about bullchit.

I don't doubt it. Sounds like you have a bowl full of it right in front of you, so you'd better dig in. Oh, and there's a lot of things that are good to be knowledgable about...I wouldn't brag about having considerable experience in "bullchit", because that implies you've done your fair share of talking our your posterior, which means I'm not too inclined to trust your opinion now.

And I was so close, too...

reply to post by AfterInfinity

How often have you equated a sniffle or a cough with an illness, because you've known it to be a symptom? They may be inseparable, but that does not make them identical.

Another strawman.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

How often have you equated a sniffle or a cough with an illness, because you've known it to be a symptom? They may be inseparable, but that does not make them identical.

Another strawman.

Instead of accusing me of "strawman arguments", why don't you refute using YOUR superior logic? You're only proving my earlier point regarding the term "strawman". Every time I refute your rebuttals, or successfully prove my point, you seem to insist it's irrelevant despite the fact that you brought it up.

You, sir, are wasting my time. And I'm beginning to suspect it's intentional. I won't allow you to derail the thread - Christian conservatives oppose all forms of progress, except for the kind that maintains what already exists. That's not progressive, that's treading water. You'll never discover new worlds if you keep treading water...you'll only drown, or be saved by someone progressive enough to build a boat.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You are the one who's derailing your own thread and making it unproductive.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


So what are you trying to prove here, in contrast to the points raised in my OP?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm not trying to prove anything, just have a conversation without a bunch of stuff, and just express my opinion. I truly am not trying to be a troll, and I apologize if it seems I am.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by VoidHawk

 

Who says I'm angry at her? I only weep for her repressed individuality and potential.

edit on 19-10-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Are you not repressing her individuality and potential by labeling her, and not allowing her her freedom to make her own choices ?

One may ask who is really the brainwashed one ?

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


How is her getting one ideology shoved down her throat until she believes it without question helping her express her individuality? Religion is the number one suppressant when it comes to personal freedom and individuality. It teaches that if you don't think a certain way you'll suffer for eternity, how's that for freedom?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WhisperingWinds

 

How is her getting one ideology shoved down her throat until she believes it without question helping her express her individuality? Religion is the number one suppressant when it comes to personal freedom and individuality. It teaches that if you don't think a certain way you'll suffer for eternity, how's that for freedom?

Why do you assume she is getting it shoved down her throat ? Maybe she just genuinely believes that is the better way..for now..let her find her own truths..without shoving your opinions down her throat, as well as others.

People like you could be classified a brainwashed sheeple , just of a different brand. They want everyone to conform to their idea of truth, and get down right belligerent when they don't, sometimes resorting to calling them nasty names, and trying to make them feel like idiots.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat, I'm just speaking on past experience and what I went through. My gut feeling is that she was raised to be a christian, if I'm wrong I take it back.

Having someone force feed you their way of life and what they believe and telling you that if you reject it you will be sent to suffer for eternity is not allowing someone to have free expression or free thought, sorry.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WhisperingWinds

 

I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat, I'm just speaking on past experience and what I went through. My gut feeling is that she was raised to be a christian, if I'm wrong I take it back.

Having someone force feed you their way of life and what they believe and telling you that if you reject it you will be sent to suffer for eternity is not allowing someone to have free expression or free thought, sorry.

My apologies, I think I had you mixed up with another member , when I replied to that post.

And you correct it sure isn't...if that is the case.

But do we know that for sure... and maybe that someone genuinely wants to believe in what some other might consider fairy tales, and it gives them peace, and helps them to love, and to forgive, and to try to see the good in others. Not everyone who has some sort of values, that may be based on religious doctrine, are out ranting at people that they are going to hell . Many are good, kind, caring, and forgiving , though they may have their shortcomings that they struggle with. I think its only fair that you allow them their freedom to find their truth , and to try and live by that, the best they can.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


No problem.

I'm talking about the belief not the believers. I don't fault believers because a lot of the time they don't have the chance to think any differently, they're taught one thing from birth believing everything else is completely off-limits. I hate the fact they're lied to not the people themselves.