Dark energy is real, say astronomers, page 3

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by MamaJ

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Hermeticism is off topic in the science and technology forum, unless you want to start a thread showing the scientific evidence for the magical and religious beliefs:

This article is about the magical and religious movement stemming from the teachings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus.

It's probably not even on topic in a separate thread since by definition it's not scientific, but it's definitely off topic in this thread which is about "Dark Energy".

This doesn't mean it's not interesting, as I studied hermeticism for a while. But unless you can point to some scientific evidence connecting it to the dark energy evidence scientists have presented, you haven't demonstrated it's on topic. And since I've studied it myself, I'm pretty sure there isn't any science behind it.

If you say so, it must be true. If you have studied it and found no science, it must be what you say!?

Oooooook, I see it differently. So be it.

Hermeticism is a historiographical phrase describing the work that attempts to reconstruct the mode of thought held by 17th century scientists. It primarily traces out the connections of Renaissance (16th century) modes of thought with those of the Scientific Revolution (17th century). This type of analysis began with English historians of science in the 1960s. This category of history of science work has largely subsumed earlier academic philosophers' work on the problem of transition from Aristotelianism to 17th century science. [1] [edit]

en.wikipedia.org...(history_of_science)

Where dark energy is concerned, there is an unknown. Unknown, meaning it can be anything we percieve it to be until its known.

I'm not going to get in a debate and do leave this open still as a science of understanding that which we have yet to discover.
if the mods want to delete my posts for being off topic, that's their job to do so as they see fit.

From here on out I want to contribute, not hinder going back forth as dark energy is the topic not whether or not an earlier science or the beginning can help us out with said understanding. I see it can, you see it can't.

Lol.... So be it.

If it offends you, I'm sorry.

reply to post by MamaJ

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This thread isn't about the history of science either, so that's off topic too. However, the part of philosophy which led to modern science that's evidence based branched off from other parts of philosophy. So just showing that philosophical topics were linked in the past is not demonstrating that non-scientific topics today have scientific evidence. This is quite distorted logic.

If you think that just because dark energy is a mystery, we should open up the discussion to anything even if it's not scientific, that would include things like flying spaghetti monsters, so again this is another failure in logic.

We have evidence for dark matter, even if we don't know what it is.

Since this is the science forum, let's stick to things which are based in evidence. Hermetics is not evidence based, unless you want to show some evidence about how it relates to dark matter?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by MamaJ

---

This thread isn't about the history of science either, so that's off topic too. However, the part of philosophy which led to modern science that's evidence based branched off from other parts of philosophy. So just showing that philosophical topics were linked in the past is not demonstrating that non-scientific topics today have scientific evidence. This is quite distorted logic.

If you think that just because dark energy is a mystery, we should open up the discussion to anything even if it's not scientific, that would include things like flying spaghetti monsters, so again this is another failure in logic.

We have evidence for dark matter, even if we don't know what it is.

Since this is the science forum, let's stick to things which are based in evidence. Hermetics is not evidence based, unless you want to show some evidence about how it relates to dark matter?

Grrrrr...... Let the mods decide, ok?

If you look into the past. We see that dark energy is known. Known to a lot and unknown to many.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what dark energy is. We have already been given the answer however some are blind to the answer because it's not what they want to hear nor understand.

Distorted logic? Because its not your own logic? I take offense to that and not about to attack your way of thinking....it's just not cool nor is it for adults. That's child's play.

Dark matter? You mean dark energy?

Having studied laws of physics and Hermetics you should know how it relates and I've already said how it relates.

Let's move on and not go backwards to derail..... and quit the child play. If you have something to contribute, please do so and let the worry of Hermes teachings be gone from you. If it makes you that un comfy as to continue the back and forth then please just refrain.

If I choose to show more in relation as it permits, I will do so. The idea of separation when it comes to understanding the continuing creation of the universe can be had but in the end all ideas have to merge to understand such a phenomena.

Separation is a division and doesn't work.

Science is an awesome study and believe me, I'm on top of it, I just don't separate it.

On topic....

Dark energy is a force. Right?

Where does this source come from and has the answer already been given? Why do we feel as though we have to wait to see what the latest scientist say when we can go back in time when the dogma was not had?

We can.....

As above so below has already been seen and proven to be a constant. This statement is science based. It's observed!

Dark energy, the mysterious substance thought to be accelerating the expansion of the universe, almost certainly exists despite some astronomers' doubts, a new study says.

Of course it exists!! Lol

Re-examining the data In the new study, the researchers re-examine the arguments against the Integrated Sachs Wolfe detection, and they update the maps used in the original work. In the end, the team determined that there is a 99.996 percent chance that dark energy is responsible for the hotter parts of the CMB maps, researchers said. "This work also tells us about possible modifications to Einstein’s theory of general relativity," said lead author Tommaso Giannantonio, of Ludwig-Maximilian University of Munich in Germany. "The next generation of cosmic microwave background and galaxy surveys should provide the definitive measurement, either confirming general relativity, including dark energy, or even more intriguingly, demanding a completely new understanding of how gravity works," Giannantonio added.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Just as our brain has dark energy, so does the eternal mind which we call universe/ matter/ light and all we see.... It's never at rest and is always creating and expanding just as our thoughts expand and evolve.

Is it really that mysterious? Not to all of us... Just some.

As above, so below. supernova.lbl.gov...

The problem of the dark energy is also central to today’s physics. Our best attempts at a fundamental theory suggest the presence of a cosmological constant that is many (perhaps as many as 120) orders of magnitude greater than the upper bound set by astronomical observations. For decades the problem seemed to be to find a symmetry or cancellation mechanism of some sort that would make the cosmological constant precisely zero. The single greatest failure of our most promising theories (such as string theories) is that they do not satisfy this requirement. Now that a dark energy has apparently been found, the problem is even harder: not just to explain why the dark energy is so tiny compared with what would have been expected theoretically, but also to explain why it happens to be of the same order of magnitude (roughly twice) as the energy in matter at the present moment in the history of the universe. It is difficult for physicists to attack this problem without knowing just what it is that needs to be explained – a cosmological constant or a dark energy that changes with time as the universe evolves – and for this they must rely on new observations by astronomers. Until it is solved, the problem of the dark energy will be a roadblock on our path to a comprehensive fundamental physical theory.

What can be said of our oceans? How much have we discovered? What's left to discover?

In the coming years and decades, astronomers will study exploding stars, map millions of galaxies, and plot the gravitational influence of dense galaxy clusters. Particle physicists will probe conditions near the time of the Big Bang. And all of them will tweak their models of how the universe began, how it has aged, and how it will end. Their work will help us understand the vast cosmic "ocean" of dark energy — an ocean that we are just beginning to explore.

hetdex.org...

The discoveries are happening quick and only when we begin to study the beginning will we have a clearer picture of as above so below and then we will rewrite history and be awakened to the facts we had long put away.

Attention!!!

For those just joining in here, or those who may have forgotten, here is the OP of this thread
Dark energy is real, say astronomers

Please stay on topic.
Philosophical/metaphysical aspects of dark energy are better suited to another forum.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Just as our brain has dark energy

What's the source for that?

Dark energy as we understand it is too small to measure on the scale of a human brain. It's only over vast distances the size of the cosmos that we've been able to measure dark energy.

Here's another confirming study that wasn't mentioned in the OP source:

Dark Energy Is Driving Universe Apart: NASA's Galaxy Evolution Explorer Finds Dark Energy Repulsive

(May 19, 2011) — A five-year survey of 200,000 galaxies, stretching back seven billion years in cosmic time, has led to one of the best independent confirmations that dark energy is driving our universe apart at accelerating speeds....

"Observations by astronomers over the last 15 years have produced one of the most startling discoveries in physical science; the expansion of the universe, triggered by the big bang, is speeding up," said Jon Morse, astrophysics division director at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "Using entirely independent methods, data from the Galaxy Evolution Explorer have helped increase our confidence in the existence of dark energy."

This really is one of the most startling discoveries in science. (and yes I meant dark energy, not dark matter, thanks).

Originally posted by MamaJ
Is it really that mysterious? Not to all of us... Just some.

There are two ideas about what it is:

Dark Energy

The nature of this dark energy is a matter of speculation. The evidence for dark energy is only indirect coming from distance measurements and their relation to redshift.[19] It is thought to be very homogeneous, not very dense and is not known to interact through any of the fundamental forces other than gravity. Since it is quite rarefied—roughly 10^−29 grams per cubic centimeter—it is unlikely to be detectable in laboratory experiments. Dark energy can only have such a profound effect on the universe, making up 74% of universal density, because it uniformly fills otherwise empty space. The two leading models are a cosmological constant and quintessence. Both models include the common characteristic that dark energy must have negative pressure.

I've heard a number of scientists discuss the cosmological constant possibility, but I haven't really heard anybody talk about quintessence.

But until someone can provide evidence to show what it is (which should yield a Nobel prize), it's a fascinating mystery. I would ask you why you think it's not mysterious, but I'm afraid the answer won't be scientific, so I'll resist that urge.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by MamaJ
Just as our brain has dark energy

What's the source for that?

Dark energy as we understand it is too small to measure on the scale of a human brain. It's only over vast distances the size of the cosmos that we've been able to measure dark energy.

Here's another confirming study that wasn't mentioned in the OP source:

Dark Energy Is Driving Universe Apart: NASA's Galaxy Evolution Explorer Finds Dark Energy Repulsive

(May 19, 2011) — A five-year survey of 200,000 galaxies, stretching back seven billion years in cosmic time, has led to one of the best independent confirmations that dark energy is driving our universe apart at accelerating speeds....

"Observations by astronomers over the last 15 years have produced one of the most startling discoveries in physical science; the expansion of the universe, triggered by the big bang, is speeding up," said Jon Morse, astrophysics division director at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "Using entirely independent methods, data from the Galaxy Evolution Explorer have helped increase our confidence in the existence of dark energy."

This really is one of the most startling discoveries in science. (and yes I meant dark energy, not dark matter, thanks).

Originally posted by MamaJ
Is it really that mysterious? Not to all of us... Just some.

There are two ideas about what it is:

Dark Energy

The nature of this dark energy is a matter of speculation. The evidence for dark energy is only indirect coming from distance measurements and their relation to redshift.[19] It is thought to be very homogeneous, not very dense and is not known to interact through any of the fundamental forces other than gravity. Since it is quite rarefied—roughly 10^−29 grams per cubic centimeter—it is unlikely to be detectable in laboratory experiments. Dark energy can only have such a profound effect on the universe, making up 74% of universal density, because it uniformly fills otherwise empty space. The two leading models are a cosmological constant and quintessence. Both models include the common characteristic that dark energy must have negative pressure.

I've heard a number of scientists discuss the cosmological constant possibility, but I haven't really heard anybody talk about quintessence.

But until someone can provide evidence to show what it is (which should yield a Nobel prize), it's a fascinating mystery. I would ask you why you think it's not mysterious, but I'm afraid the answer won't be scientific, so I'll resist that urge.

For some, it's hard to take the philosophy out of that which created it.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

" This is a cosmic symphony. You are really seeing sound ( and) The sound can help you Understand how the instrument was made"


Use google, you will find articles about dark energy in the brain.

I'm leaving this thread to you as your definition of science and mine are different. I don't care how you explain it, it can be philosophical or not. You however care, as shown.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Use google, you will find articles about dark energy in the brain.

I tried that and I got some articles that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.

Scientific American hijacked the "dark energy" term to put on the cover of their magazine to sell it, but it's not about dark energy, it's about levels of neurological activity in the brain when it's resting.

The Wikipedia article on Dark energy makes no mention of neurological activity in the brain.

Originally posted by MamaJ
I'm leaving this thread to you as your definition of science and mine are different.

Meaning I'm using the definition which applies today, and you're using the definition that applied several hundred years ago as in your history of science reference?

Yes they are different, but my response to that is, welcome to 2012.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

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I think, perhaps, quantum physics (i.e.particle-like & wave-like behavior/interaction of energy/matter) may be the "new" science that ties western experimental science with eastern "philosophy" and the short-sightedness of considering one in a vacuum without the other. Daunting as the many articles may be, they seem only to point to the inevitability that, yes, there is Dark Energy existing as a masculine, electric part of a dualistic (Dark Energy/Matter) opposite of what we know as visible Light Energy/Matter.

Thank you, MamaJ

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