A Question from an Outsider: How far is the USA away from "Westborozation" and cult control?

It has beome increasingly apparent that with discussions on gay marriage, for example, that Bible verses become the focus of debates, and what the endlessly disputable Bible sees as fit and allowable.
It seems the measure of debate has dropped completely to the standards of Biblical literalism - surprisingly not only from an anti-gay, but also from a pro-gay perspective!
It seems that religious lingo is already the core of US discourse - it's regarded as a given "truth", and debates operate within its confines already, instead of questioning it.
The Bible opens by giving two totally different versions of creation between Genesis chapter 1 and 2 (at least in any literal sense), so why would anybody base a social argument on what it says in 66 books by 40 authors?
Then of course every tragedy puts a blame on the "secularization" of US society, almost as if the US was once a Protestant equivalent of the Vatican turned Playboy Mansion by the teaching of evolution!

I just wrote this post on the Westborozation of US society, and I'd like to share it for wider discussion with the ATS community:

I've been watching a range of documentaries on Youtube and elsewhere lately on the evolution/creationist debate in the US, and what is happening is that religious people want their fairy-tales and thumb-sucked stories to be equated to science.

The truth for the US and other countries (especially in Africa where funding and political connections run deep between fundamentalist donor groups and propaganda) is that a certain type of religion wants to worm its way into public and private life, and determine the future of society - based on what? Well, unstable bull-crap fiction, actually.

So they abuse every event, even though such similar events don't occur in far more secularized societies.

What's even worse is what I'd personally call the "Westborozation" of US society.

Every unwanted event is linked by torturous analogy to "disobeying literal scripture".

Many in the US regarded Fred Phelps and his cult as an abnormality.
I'd say that was a serious mistake.
They are the sign of the times.

That Phelps thinking is now prevalent, and if it's not stopped it will invade the research institutions, and eventually the homes of not just liberals, but also of conservatives, and the US will be one massive cult, where kids are taught that an earthquake is due to gay sex, and not the shifting of tectonic plates.

It's actually mind-blowing.
A society stands before a full-on take-over by a mind-control cult that is anti-science and has offered only fiction and unprovable miracles, while this same society accepts an interrogation of its core liberal values!
Has it already capitulated?
Yeah, to even consider religious nonsense like that means liberalism has gone too far indeed!

reply to post by halfoldman


Westboro is an extremely small little attention seeking group. Mostly one family in reality. The only difference between them and some group like the Branch Davidians, is this group exploits the law aggressively and stays in the limelight as a means of self-preservation, instead of keeping to themselves. About 99.9999% of Americans would like to see them get run over by some truckers or Hell's Angels.

"Cult Control" I suppose could be expanded to include all religions, political parties, sports teams, community pride, abortion/anti-abortion, pro-gun/anti-gun, etc., and in that regard, apparently we are already 100% there. Pretty much everyone pics something to identify with, and once they do, they are cultish in their support for it no matter what facts, figures, or logic say otherwise.

well I was going to jump on with some dismissive response of, About as far from it returning to a constitutional small government...

But if the Conspiracies are to be believed, we never left "cult" control, either from the masons, or Illuminati.

Just got done watching a vid about all the Occult symbols that are plastered all over D.C.

That and the blood lines of the presidents who knows whats going on.

I've seen a lot of hatred and malice posted about Christians. What would you think if I posted something like the "Rev Wrightization of America" Chickens coming home to roost? Just wondering what your reaction would be.

And oh yes, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, two of the most criminally corrupt Democrat politicians , are both "Catholic". I use quotation marks because to me they do not represent the true Catholic worldview. Pelosi is a member of DSA. If anything, there is a trend to socialize the Church, and Marxist infiltration has been rampant.
Did you kow that even Biden's priest told him he should refrain from receiving communion as long as his stance on abortion was pro-choice?

reply to post by getreadyalready

But at its core teaching Westboro suggests that turning from God's Word (as they see it) leads to military failure, social disasters and natural disasters.
Have we only heard that magical thinking with its disjointed and astounding connections from Westboro?

Now what's different to that from the mainstream mega-churches, people like Pat Robertson and an entire world-view that's based on Biblical creationism, and its more acceptable name-sake, intelligent design?

It is exactly the same, there is no difference between those "conservative religious politics" and Westboro.

Sure, Westboro is a nice scapegoat, but the wide-spread religious Christian cult is no different.

It is Westboro in a slightly different guise, but essentially it says EXACTLY the same, and millions of US evangelicals applaud it.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

You mean like telling professors with biology degrees that they are ruining the US (and one supposes the globe) because they teach evolution, and all the modern evils stem from science and not teaching kids the world was made in 7 days 6 thousand years ago?

Yeah, Christians do face discrimination, I won't dispute that (currently especially in countries run by other divine-command religions).

But liberal Christians can also face discrimination, especially from more fundamentalist Christians.

In some US areas Christians who agreed with evolution and metaphorical interpretations of creation face insults and even rejection from cult Christians.

So I pity rational and liberal Christians.
I also pity Christian gay people.

They feel the pain from the hard-core cult members.

Just wondering..... (no offense intended or anything) but do you happen to be a gay atheist?

reply to post by r2d246

No just gay.

Do you happen to want to take over an entire society for the Lord?

Would you say that's a good thing?

(No offense taken or intended, my OP has an open-ended question that can be answered either way, and personally I have nothing to do with it.)

More and more religious people as time goes on are accepting evolution, as well as gay marriage. The evolution/creationist debate is exaggerated and the examples used are from both extremes.

A religion "worming" its way into public and private life isn't exactly the case. What happens are you have light adherents to a religion, that vote. The future gets determined for them, as times change. It really isn't that they are religious. It's the 90% of "meh" attitude people that have the power, and they aren't being guided by religion to any significant degree.

Fred Phelps and his cult, many do think of as an abnormality, but the mistake is not recognizing attention whoring.

Invade research institutions...don't think so. Considering something like 96% of PhDs are atheists. Liberals.....right.

I don't know, I thought it was common knowledge that gay sex can sometimes cause earthquakes...I mean, wouldn't be horrible if that were taught in schools but probably other stuff higher on the list.

reply to post by halfoldman

But at its core teaching Westboro suggests that turning from God's Word (as they see it) leads to military failure, social disasters and natural disasters.
Have we only heard that magical thinking with its disjointed and astounding connections from Westboro?

That's a different subject. The vast majority of people that identify with Christian churches are not really Christian at their core. They are moderates, deists. They believe everyone had a right to believe whatever they want, and they wish them well in those beliefs. The vast majority of Christians are not extremists like the New Testament would have them be, so can they really call themselves Christians at all?

I don't call myself a Christian for that very reason. I don't believe Jesus is the "only" way, so therefore, I'm not a Christian. I think about 90% of Christian teachings are OUTSTANDING, and I think about 90% of Christian people are OUTSTANDING PEOPLE because of it.

reply to post by Turq1

Thanks for your views.
Very to the point of my question.

But really, all those PhDs are atheists?
Who told people that?
You immediately have to be an atheist to disagree?
Now that's what concerns me.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Also a great view, and who says New Testament Christians have to be "extremists"?
A great response to the perceived monopoly that one stream or sect within US Christianity has created.

I'd wish people with your insight would call themselves "Christians" before the label is appropriated entirely.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

You mean like telling professors with biology degrees that they are ruining the US (and one supposes the globe) because they teach evolution, and all the modern evils stem from science and not teaching kids the world was made in 7 days 6 thousand years ago?

Yeah, Christians do face discrimination, I won't dispute that (currently especially in countries run by other divine-command religions).

But liberal Christians can also face discrimination, especially from more fundamentalist Christians.

In some US areas Christians who agreed with evolution and metaphorical interpretations of creation face insults and even rejection from cult Christians.

So I pity rational and liberal Christians.
I also pity Christian gay people.

They feel the pain from the hard-core cult members.

edit on 27-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

I find your generalization of Christians as cult members unless they are gay or happen to believe in evolution patently offensive. Just my opinion mind you.
I personally believe the theory of evolution was pushed on the world by people associated with Rockefeller's depopulation agenda. Darwin was inspired by Thomas Malthus, an economist who rabidly believed the world could not sustain more people and that only the wealthy and most healthy should live. History has shown Malthus to be incorrect in his assessment of the planet's ability to sustain a growing population due to the fact that we have had advances in cultivation and agriculture which Malthus could not have foreseen. His worldview was not too much unlike the Progressives of the Wilson administration and those who embraced the ideals of eugenics.
I also do not reject scientific theory out of hand because of any beliefs in biblical scripture. I liken the bible to the Hindu concept of one day in the life of Brahma.

The duration of a day in the life of Brahmā is 4,320,000,000 solar years. This is stated also in the Bhagavad-gītā.
SB 1.6.30, Translation and Purport
After 4,300,000,000 solar years, when Brahmā awoke to create again by the will of the Lord, all the ṛṣis like Marīci, Aṅgirā, Atri and so on were created from the transcendental body of the Lord, and I also appeared along with them.

vaniquotes.org...

So in like manner, perhaps one day out of 7 in the creation theory can also equal many thousands of years. When people stop taking everything totally literally, there will be progress in our understanding.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

It is Westboro in a slightly different guise, but essentially it says EXACTLY the same, and millions of US evangelicals applaud it.

WHAT "millions and millions"? What does "millions and millions" even mean? Does it mean two million or 100 million? What are you trying to say here? You seem insistent that ALL fundamentalist Christians are EXACTLY like Westboro. There are 300 million people here. What we who are here in the midst of this are trying to tell you is that the vast majority of Americans, over 99%, whether or not they are staistically measured as "fundamentalist" by some pollster such as Gallup, DO NOT APPROVE of Westboro's tactics OR beliefs. In fact, Westboro is not affiliated with any other Baptist group. They are completely independent and conist largely of a single family, the Phelps. As a church, they are completely isolated.

There are NOT "millions of US evengelicals" applauding Westboro. Their tactics are deplorable and any time people know they are about to picket, they are met with massive opposition. It is true that many religious people in the US deplore homosexuality. Indeed, there are those of us who believe it is being crammed down our throats. But that doesn't mean everyone who has this view "applauds" Westboro.

The only thing Westborough could take over is France. They have about as much a chance of taking over the US as the KKK, the Black Panthers, La Razza, or Martha Stewart.

Well, I'm glad I'm finding so many disapproving posts.

It's reassuring, I can tell you.

However, I'm still perplexed that religious groups link natural and social disasters to what they perceive as "sins", and this is exactly what Wesboro does, yet they are supposedly completely different.

How are they different in that respect?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

That's OK, I suppose it also must be offensive to science to have religious fiction crammed down its throat.

I suppose US creationists would be happy with Hindu scriptures taught in their schools.

Yeah right.

But you are clearly more open-minded than most and not a literalist, and thus your insights are much appreciated.

Star for that post!

Genesis chapter 2 is the indepth details into the creation even in chapter 1.

Westboro isn't even a church, it's just the Phelps family looking to cash in on lawsuits, that's their get rich quick scheme.

I've been watching a range of documentaries on Youtube and elsewhere lately on the evolution/creationist debate in the US, and what is happening is that religious people want their fairy-tales and thumb-sucked stories to be equated to science.

I wouldn't call them fairy tales, because your fairy tales are being proven by archeaology, like the bottom link in my signature. There is science in the bible, you just don't know what you're looking at. The great flood is a myth? Then why did archeaologists find 1500 archeaological sites and settlement son the bottom of the mediteranean sean? Settlement sites were discovered on the bottom of the English Channel proving Brittain and Ireland were both part of the western europe landmass and then theres these pics taken 650 feet down at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. Notice the trees? Trees don't grow in the ocean:

The truth for the US and other countries (especially in Africa where funding and political connections run deep between fundamentalist donor groups and propaganda) is that a certain type of religion wants to worm its way into public and private life, and determine the future of society - based on what? Well, unstable bull-crap fiction, actually.

I wouldn't call what christians believe as bullcrap, too much archeaological evidence to support it's true.

That Phelps thinking is now prevalent, and if it's not stopped it will invade the research institutions, and eventually the homes of not just liberals, but also of conservatives, and the US will be one massive cult, where kids are taught that an earthquake is due to gay sex, and not the shifting of tectonic plates.

Thats absurd. People have a right to believe and think whatever they want, are you going to create a new policing sector the "Thought Police"? Phelp's family is pimping off the bible for money, they don't give a flying crap about scripture, what theyre doing is no different than L. Ron Hubbard making the Scientology "religion" based on his stories. This isn't the middle east yet but it may be soon, and when it does become the middle east then you might want to rethink being homosexual.

A society stands before a full-on take-over by a mind-control cult that is anti-science and has offered only fiction and unprovable miracles, while this same society accepts an interrogation of its core liberal values!

Really? As a christian i have no real problem seeing why God couldn't create using evolution, as i said before there is science in the bible, you just don't know what you're looking at. I wouldn't say Christ's miracles are unproven. Jews needed to see miracles in order to believe because theyre skeptical, if he had no miracles they would have told him to piss off and he would have never had any believers and christianity wouldn't exist today. Christianity is one of his miracles because Rome and Islam and the Pope did their best to wipe us out in many genocides and we're still here, thats a miracle in itself that people would choose to join a belief that would more than likely get them killed by people who hated them.

You're interrogating christian beliefs, how is what you do any different than what you accuse us of doing? So are you going to violate everyone else's right just because you want to continue in your homosexual fantasies? You should be grateful you live in the U.S. and not the ME, muslim put homosexuals to death over there. So stop looking a gift horse in the mouth, you could have it much much worse than what you do.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Well thanks for that interesting post.

Actually the thought police and the US becoming a theocracy is my fear.

I see many threads and posts on slamming the liberal tradition of the US, so I made mine from the opposite perspective, because both extremes can be dangerous without tension and criticism.

One can already see how people react in misconstruing my thread as anti-Christian, when the biggest danger of all this is actually to the good name of Christianity.
I'm just raising that issue, I didn't create it.
I am myself a victim of perceptions.
But mainly I'm asking people from the US how they feel.

I'm not sure that regional flood evidence would convince scientists of a Genesis-type flood, but I'm glad that you say evolution and creation can work in symbiosis (and I'd personally concur with that).

On the other hand, not to blame individual Christians, but in some African countries interference from US religious groups is making life hell on earth for gay people, possibly worse than the Middle East.
news.bostonherald.com...=home&position=recent

Originally posted by halfoldman
Well, I'm glad I'm finding so many disapproving posts.

It's reassuring, I can tell you.

However, I'm still perplexed that religious groups link natural and social disasters to what they perceive as "sins", and this is exactly what Wesboro does, yet they are supposedly completely different.

How are they different in that respect?

edit on 27-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

I have heard stories about Buddhists in meditation being told that their lack of discipline in their thoughts could literally create chaos and destruction in the world. Buddhist thought teaches that we can make karma even in our thoughts and that we must discipline our thoughts as well as our actions and take responsibility. The control of the mind is called Raja Yoga in HIndu thought.
In the Bible and the Hindu scriptures there are passages which are strikingly similar related to the spoken word.

In John 1:1 it states

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

bible.cc...

and in Genesis this

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the first day.

www.biblegateway.com...

Here is the Hindu version from the Rig Veda

These are the very words of Veda. Prajapatir vai idam asit: In the beginning was Brahman. Tasya vag dvitya asit; with whom was the Vak or the Word... Vag vai paramam Brahma; and the word is Brahman."

reluctant-messenger.com...

The context of all this is that the very Mind of God is the creative thought manifested in physical action by the Spoken Word.

We are co-creators with God as his Sons and Daughters ( which Jesus knew and claimed) and therefore we must take responsibility for our uses and misuses of the thought and action taken by us as such. Unfortunately, these are metaphysical principles not generally taught in church or in schools.
I read a book which I got in Theosophy called "Thought Forms" and this book explained that "thoughts are Things" and take form in layers of physical density depending on how deep and intense the will is.

www.anandgholap.net...