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A Question from an Outsider: How far is the USA away from "Westborozation" and cult control?

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posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 

Yeah, and a concern or question isn't pronouncing judgement.

I'm not claiming to have any truth, but one can see that the material available on religious discussions creates a view of a very divided society in the US to outsiders.

At least so far it seems that this is possibly alarmist?

I'm sure there is a truth to it, but is everyone as angry as the people in the clips?
That's what I'm not sure about.

If one can say a "Westboro-type" person, then it's probably a feature that is wider spread.
edit on 28-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Your thread is titled: How far is the USA away from "Westborozation" and cult control?

Then in discussion you said you felt that the Christian cult thing was more widespread, that it wasn't just in the US, and now you are going back to focusing on it in the US. You also insinuated that the US is exporting this type of cult to other nations. Perhaps the host nations are adding their own style.
Perhaps your main concern isn't just the "cultishness" of some groups, but the possibility of violence, and I'm guessing you are mostly concerned with violence toward gays. I remember the video you provided in another thread of what was happening to some women in prisons. I do not believe this is an export of Christianity from the States but a peculiar anomaly to S Africa. You seem to be projecting that on to American Christianity for some reason. Christian missionaries brought Christianity to many nations in past centuries, but there is something odd about the way Christianity has recently been portrayed as horrid people with violent natures. Just look at the Hollywood movies produced after the 50's. Christians have been mostly portrayed as nutty, violent, sick and twisted, bigoted, murderers and every other foul thing. On the other hand, gays are being portrayed as happy, creative, helpful, talented, unselfish, and victimized by the horrid Christians. Do you think this is an accident?



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 





Telling people they're proven by science to be born with "original sin" and lower than dirt in the eyes of some invisible cloud person who created them, and can destroy them if they don't obey certain preachers, is just dreadful.


I never heard that in science class, and I went to grade school when it was still acceptable to say the Pledge of Allegiance in class. This is completely silly. The doctrine of original sin is a Christian dogma, but as far as I know it was never suggested it was proven scientifically. I think you are making this stuff up as you go. If this stuff is suggested, I say it is absolutely erroneous.
By the way, I don't pay attention to Media Matters because it is nothing but Soros financed Democrat propaganda.
I do happen to have another opinion on the doctrine of original sin, and why the Church preaches that. It is more about control than anything else. Have you ever heard about the "spiritually wicked in high places"?


Ephesians 6:10-18, “Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.”


www.jesus-is-savior.com...

That passage says it all to me about how in the End Times TPTB and the Elites have controlled us in High Places. They are the spiritually wicked. They are the angels who fell from heaven who mated with the daughters of men and they are the offspring of the fallen angels. That story is told in the book of Enoch and why do you think it is not preached in the churches?
edit on 28-7-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 02:31 AM
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I don't happen to believe in the 6000 year old earth theory. I think it is an erroneous concept, even though there may be well meaning and sincere people saying it. This does not mean I have to believe that we evolved from ape creatures either. I think the science community has come up with some amazing discoveries. The problem I have with science is that it tends to omit spirituality altogether in its goal of proving stuff in a test tube.



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Well, they don't omit spirituality because they are against it, they omit it because there is no empirical proof for it. That's, IMHO, what religionists fail to grasp. Science, to boil it down, is t!t$ or GTFO. Religion is "I just know god is there and Jesus was his son. "well, HOW do you know?" "I just do. I have faith..."etc, but there is no hard and fast proof. As a matter of fact, there is more concrete evidence pointing to aliens as the culprit for UFOs, than there is evidence of an omnipotent supreme being, and no, the bible and some guy's name on a rock tomb nor a fleeting reference by a roman scribe are not evidence. Jesus was a Great philosopher, I just don't think he was a god or alien, for that matter.



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 

You clearly missed the point on original sin.

Evangelicals want to introduce creationism into schools because they believe that evolutionary science makes kids valueless and not responsible to a God.
But what value does their teaching really ascribe to human beings?
They subscribe to original sin, which teaches that since the fall of Adam and Eve at the end of the creation myth humans are doomed and unworthy without Christ's blood sacrifice.
So teaching creationism is attempting to change an entire value system, to a religious one that believes in original sin and total dependence on a supernatural being as it's given by manipulating preachers(even though they are changing it bit by bit, and they won't come out of the box with it all straightaway).

I'm not sure about your generalizations about movies, and there are good and bad stereotypes of gays and Christians in various films, depending on the intended audience.

I linked to documentaries on the previous page where one can see the Christian behavior and it explains the clashes as evangelicals try to worm their religion into science classes.
I've also linked to how Christian US groups are directly meddling in African politics on p.1.

So yeah, accuse people of making stuff up.
I guess that's one way of arguing.
I find the personal theories you have made up on religion, Bible tracts, original sin and some happy co-existence of Hindu and Christian creationism fascinating, but it's heresy to evangelical theology.


edit on 28-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Ulimately God controls everything. Resistance if futile. Your best and only opinion is to submit now willingly, or be forced to submit later. And if that happens your gonna be an enemy of the kingdom. Besides God loves you, just take the carrot, not the stick.



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by r2d246
 

Thanks for that honest post.

Learning the truth about this mindset will set us free.

However, I will not submit.


edit on 29-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 





They subscribe to original sin, which teaches that since the fall of Adam and Eve at the end of the creation myth humans are doomed and unworthy without Christ's blood sacrifice.


Yes, and this is exactly the kind of thing I disagree with, but I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe this to be an erroneous concept introduced by early church thinkers. What they also did was to anathemitize Origen for teaching reincarnation, thus cutting off that teaching for generations after. Do you see how someone in power making that decision can change the entire course of a religious trend? There is also not much emphasis on Enoch either, and why do you think? Because it is the controversial teaching on Fallen Angels becoming corporeal and cohabitating with the daughters of men. It's in Genesis if only briefly. They didn't scrub quite hard enough. And they left the battle of Armageddon in Revelation where it is clear the angels fell to earth. How did they fall? They must have taken human form. Is it any wonder there are principalities and powers the children of God are struggling with, who have great power and control and are running amok in the planet and causing so much destruction worldwide?
About films, since you are not in the US do you see many Hollywood films in your neck of the woods? I challenge you to find recent movies that do not portray Christianity in a negative light. If you look carefully and are honest you will see the spin.

edit on 29-7-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-7-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by DarkKnight76
 


Yes I understand the empirical nature of the scientific method and embrace it for what it is. I have no problem combining science with my understanding of religion. It is atheists who hate religion so much, who have sought to eliminate it entirely instead of using science to enhance our understanding of the Universe. Instead our society is becoming so immersed in materialism that we have forgotten our origins in spirit. There is a reason for the activity of the pineal gland, and mine was active in my youth.



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 11:08 AM
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I also don't see a difference between wingnuts like the Phelps family and the evangelical corporations.

When lobbying and religious pseudo-political influence is banned, the churches are taxed, and all legislation is controlled only by secular, common sense debate, there will be no danger from the magical stuff.

Don't tax us, we're a "charitable" organization, they say. Then they spout all sorts of vitriol from the pulpit about the government.

The Bible is THE WORD of God!, they say. Then they backtrack when you ask them to take it literally and put to death those who displease their God.

Don't keep quoting the Old Testament, they say. Christians believe only in the New Testament. Then they line up to complain about their ten commandments not being observed.

Stop quoting facts to the Christians. They can't cope with them. They prefer magic. If you disagree with them, you're an agent of the devil, apparently. They won't listen to your side of the story; common sense; logic; fact; or physical evidence because they read an old book and none of that is in there, so you must be influenced by satan.

They'll quote Biblical passages and shoe-horn in a current event to try to make it fit context. In truth, it's just a Bronze Age fable about Bronze Age people who don't understand reality.

The truth is that government is not of the people, by the people, for the people, it's controlled by corporations, churches, and ideologists with money through lobbying. It's that simple. Whoever has the most money makes the rules. Unfortunately, the religions have boat-loads of money for this purpose and use it liberally.



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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reply to post by Badgered1
 





Stop quoting facts to the Christians. They can't cope with them. They prefer magic. If you disagree with them


How about the magical thinking that money will just appear to pay for all the welfare and various services people seem to expect from govt handouts. Oh wait the magic is the govt puts it's hand in our pockets and then with the other hand puts it in someone else's pocket, then whatever isn't paid for that way gets printed by the Fed out of thin air and entered onto some books and again that appears as inflation(hidden tax).

Then there's the whole magical thinking that govt is good and cares about us and will take care of all of us unto the end(which through Obamacare they will decide), and more magical thinking that although the Soviet Union failed miserably at centralized control of the means of production, that if only we had the right people in charge we can do it better.

There's magical thinking for you secular style.

Now to give credit to wingnuts as you say, left wingnuts believe that Jesus was a communist and that the bible preaches socialism. Perhaps when they heard Paul's letter to the Galations and heard him say we should bear one another's burdens, they missed the part where he said every man shall bear his own burden.
Galatians 6:5
www.godvine.com...

If we are to take Paul seriously, we are responsible for our own stuff.
We are also admonished that charitable giving must be from the heart and not from the idea we will be thought well of men. Forced redistribution is not according to the teachings of Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:3

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


scripturetext.com...
edit on 29-7-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Badgered1
I also don't see a difference between wingnuts like the Phelps family and the evangelical corporations.

When lobbying and religious pseudo-political influence is banned, the churches are taxed, and all legislation is controlled only by secular, common sense debate, there will be no danger from the magical stuff.

Don't tax us, we're a "charitable" organization, they say. Then they spout all sorts of vitriol from the pulpit about the government.

The Bible is THE WORD of God!, they say. Then they backtrack when you ask them to take it literally and put to death those who displease their God.

Don't keep quoting the Old Testament, they say. Christians believe only in the New Testament. Then they line up to complain about their ten commandments not being observed.

Stop quoting facts to the Christians. They can't cope with them. They prefer magic. If you disagree with them, you're an agent of the devil, apparently. They won't listen to your side of the story; common sense; logic; fact; or physical evidence because they read an old book and none of that is in there, so you must be influenced by satan.

They'll quote Biblical passages and shoe-horn in a current event to try to make it fit context. In truth, it's just a Bronze Age fable about Bronze Age people who don't understand reality.

The truth is that government is not of the people, by the people, for the people, it's controlled by corporations, churches, and ideologists with money through lobbying. It's that simple. Whoever has the most money makes the rules. Unfortunately, the religions have boat-loads of money for this purpose and use it liberally.


Wow you just have it all figured out now don't you.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 06:23 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 

Some of our local Christian blockbusters include Faith like Potatoes, Ordinary People (both about the Mighty Men ministry and their controversial "Biblical" teachings on gender) and Hansie.

Some other Christian movies would include: The Secrets of Jonathan Sperry, Time Changer, Carmen's The Champion, The Omega Code, Fireproof, Like Father Like Son, Left Behind I and II, Meggido, The Omega Code, Tribulation Force, Unidentified, The Ten Commandments, End of the Spear, The Chronicles of Narnia, Luther, The Preacher's Son and The Passion of the Christ.

I won't include films with a background presence of Christianity, like The Color Purple, or horror films where Catholic priests perform heroic exorcisms, or the thinly veiled anti-pagan Christian propaganda in programs like A Haunting.

Gay stereotypes are well discussed in The Celluloid Closet documentary, and there were few positive or accurate attempts at portraying gay characters before the 1980s, and still today there is hardly a gay character that isn't doomed. Maybe Milk comes close while Brokeback Mountain was just horrendous. Gay movies from Europe and Britain are generally much better.
But religion says there's a "gay agenda" or "an agenda" from any group that dares to resist, and they've pretty much spread that terminology into mainstream society, so if people believe that then they will have a slanted view of entertainment.

Of course I can't claim to have seen everything, and in some films like The Apostle the character is morally complex at worst.
It's notable however that the cinematic treatment of Evangelical Christianity has been positive compared to critical films on other faiths, like Water (about the sexual molestation of child-widows in Hinduism), The Magdalene Sisters (about the sexual and economic slavery of girls that got pregnant out of wedlock in a Catholic convent) or the Stoning of Soraya M, especially when one considers the documentaries on how abstinence only sex education and the purity movement have ruined lives.


edit on 30-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



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