Gay Marriage. I am honestly confused

Originally posted by kaylaluv

I wasn't addressing you in that post, and I'd appreciate if you never addressed me again, and I will return the favor. Thank you.

Touchy, ain't we? I reckon I must've hit a nerve, then.

You have a nice life now, y'hear?

Originally posted by Spotless
"idea of making it illegal to think negatively about homosexuality"
Where are you getting this ? Drop me an article or smth.

Just open your eyes and take a gander on any discussion board dealing with homosexuality. The ire of said defenders of everything is perfect about homosexuality is quite awesome when you even hint at a disagreement with that lifestyle.

As to a source:

Personal experience

Originally posted by nenothtu

It's because it violates my basic philosophy of politics. Not society, not sexuality, not who is or is not "good people", but politics. The problem for me, really, is a demand for "rights" in the form of a government-issued certificate. Since no government dispensed privilege is a "right", I nor any one else has a "right" to a government-issued marriage. That's a privilege. What the government gives, the government can also take away, and therefore it is not a "right".

That seems to be a weak reason to obstruct other people in society from fulfillment.
Regardless of your rationale, the fact is the government is involved in this area
of civic life and married people are afforded a different set options, privileges or
rights (which ever way you want to phrase it). Marriage has been recognized by
this government for many generations, the government has never attempted
to take it away, whether you call it a right or a privilege, no government has
as far as I am concerned. So it seems like you have concocted a reason that is
based upon imagination, not history or substance.

What is real and actual is that a chorus of anti gay marriage opinions effectively
prevent people from achieving an age old status that represents love and commitment.
So I hope you can see it differently, while gay marriage does not harm you, your perspective
is part of a front that does harm people who desire to get married, however passive or nonchalant
your opposition may be.

Originally posted by Fromabove
Marriage under the Judeo-Christian God of the old and new testament is a union between and man and woman, Therefore you can put homosexuals in a church and get them married by a priest but they still will never be married. God will not honor it so even if the State and the people do, it really doesn't matter because it's not really a marriage.

Well then, let god sort it out at the gates of heaven, simple.

While we are here, let people have freedom to live how they see fit.

Originally posted by MidnightTide
I really could care less if homosexuals get married.....get married, get tax breaks from said marriage, adopt kids - whatever. The only thing that bugs me about the homosexual agenda is their idea of making it illegal to think negatively about homosexuality. To me, you should have every right to say what you think and what you feel, regardless how stupid those thoughts are.

You do, and no gay people are trying to make it illegal to do that. Next...

Originally posted by MidnightTide

Originally posted by Spotless
"idea of making it illegal to think negatively about homosexuality"
Where are you getting this ? Drop me an article or smth.

Just open your eyes and take a gander on any discussion board dealing with homosexuality. The ire of said defenders of everything is perfect about homosexuality is quite awesome when you even hint at a disagreement with that lifestyle.

As to a source:

Personal experience

edit on 28-7-2012 by MidnightTide because: (no reason given)

There's a difference between people not liking bigotry and saying they don't like homosexuals, and IT BEING ILLEGAL. You're allowed to say whatever you want about homosexuals, and guess what? They're allowed to say whatever the hell they want to back to you! Freedom! Ain't it great!

Originally posted by pisssss

That seems to be a weak reason to obstruct other people in society from fulfillment.

Who am I obstructing, and from what?

Marriage has been recognized by
this government for many generations, the government has never attempted
to take it away, whether you call it a right or a privilege, no government has
as far as I am concerned.

Governments take marriage away all the time - they even have a special word for taking it away. It's called "divorce", and there are battalions of lawyers devoted solely to it, to insure that all of your privileges in the matter are revoked.

So it seems like you have concocted a reason that is
based upon imagination, not history or substance.

So you are of the opinion that all of your rights are issued by a government, and they cannot take away what they give?

What is real and actual is that a chorus of anti gay marriage opinions effectively
prevent people from achieving an age old status that represents love and commitment.
So I hope you can see it differently, while gay marriage does not harm you, your perspective
is part of a front that does harm people who desire to get married, however passive or nonchalant
your opposition may be.

I've already said, repeatedly, that gay marriage ought to be sanctioned by government to the same extent as heterosexual marriage. There is no reason that anyone other than government must be force to compromise themselves and embrace it socially or spiritually. NO reason. Forcing them to compromise their own standards in any manner other than recognition of the legal or financial implications of the law is antithetical to freedom, and no less oppressive to them than refusal of a license is to gays.

If their "love and commitment" hinges upon a law or financial considerations, I submit that perhaps they should re-evaluate just how committed they actually are, and what it is they are really committed to. That applies whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.

Originally posted by pisssss

Originally posted by Fromabove
Marriage under the Judeo-Christian God of the old and new testament is a union between and man and woman, Therefore you can put homosexuals in a church and get them married by a priest but they still will never be married. God will not honor it so even if the State and the people do, it really doesn't matter because it's not really a marriage.

Well then, let god sort it out at the gates of heaven, simple.

While we are here, let people have freedom to live how they see fit.

Now THAT I can agree with, wholeheartedly!

Originally posted by Tramadolnights

Originally posted by Davo163
For the record, I'm gay and I have absolutely no interest in marriage (from a religious point of view), but I would like to have the same legal rights as straight couples.

Marriage is a widely recognised LEGAL relationship (in Australian law, marriage is a civil institution, not a religious one) whereas the rights given to de facto relationships are different between the Australian states and between Australia and other countries.

In other words, gay people aren't calling for marriage equality so that they can 'erode the foundation of religion' or start packing out your churches, corrupting your sermons and the like. We just want the same legal rights as everybody else.

Yes they are. On all claims.

You are doing it to spite heterosexual people. You are doing it to spite Christians. You are doing it to spite the family unit. You are doing it to turn our society into one where gender roles mean nothing.

It is actually scary if I'm entirely honest, to think that I could bring a child onto this earth and he will not know his place because he is treated like a woman.

It's not scary at all. Because there is no risk that your child will be born and mistakenly be treated like a woman... unless he chooses to be. That's the beauty of acceptance and understanding and loving each other. If your child is a homosexual and chooses to be treated like a woman, you will accept him. But it will be his choice, not society's choice as you allude to and quite possibly believe. It is only the perversity of hatred and nonacceptance and terrible naivety that things truly becomes scary. You have it all backwards, my friend.

reply to post by nenothtu


good post nenothtu -

I think you probably speak for a lot of people

more in the morning when I have an IQ

Acceptance is not the same as tolerance.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


And which, in your opinion should people be doing?

monogamy did not start with the christian god. the ONLY hangup (besides religious prejudices) is in the benefits you get when you decide to settle down, live in one house, raise a family, etc.
marriage is a word hijacked. if you want to say "Gays can not be joined in Holy Matrimony" then that is a religious distinction. maybe they dont want the christian Holy Matrimony, maybe they just want to be able to see each other in the hospital, be able to call each other something more loving than "partner", to be married, joined together.

and for the record, god has made NOTHING clear. the bible is a good book, but it is written by man, and man is fallible. i would put more faith in the quran, which includes jesus and mary, because its origin was oral tradition in a land strong in oral tradition. but even that could easily have been written down wrong. "you shall not suffer a witch to live " is incorrect, it is poisoner. who wants to let people who poison others live? but oh no, a mistranslation ages ago and people still feel an urge to cast out witches. organized religion is a crutch. but hey, if you fall madly in love with someone not of your faith, thats your problem, your hangup. dont take it out on people in love who just want to be respected as humans with a right to love. if theres one thing all religions agree on its LOVE, and it takes many forms.

reply to post by OopzyDayzy


Very nice post btw!

I'm gay, and I cannot speak for all gay people. However I could not care less whether churches or people recognize my looming nuptials (I'm in newyork). I'm fine with just the government certificate.

It's a matter of perspective. I grew up all my life being told that someday I'd fall in love, and be married.

Unless you've been told no in that situation it's hard to see how hurtful it can be.

If you don't like gay marriages, don't have a same sex marriage. Problem solved.

Another reason why gay people should be able to get married

Originally posted by nenothtu
Who am I obstructing, and from what?

I am talking rhetorically, not literally. But if your political will is amplified by
a million other people who hold the same position then your will and philosophy
might serve as a part of the political machine that actively obstructs gay marriage.

Governments take marriage away all the time - they even have a special word for taking it away. It's called "divorce", and there are battalions of lawyers devoted solely to it, to insure that all of your privileges in the matter are revoked.

I find this part of your response to be disingenuous when I weigh against your sentiment
in other posts. Government takes away marriage at the behest of the parties or party
engaged in the marriage. It is disappointing that you had to dumb down the a perfectly
intelligent conversation to such a degree. You seems to express that you were against
granting things/rights that the government could strip away, but I do not understand how
devolving a marriage can genuinely can be a good example of why you have the position
you do.

People initiate the divorce, not the government, the government officiates only after there
is a request. Where is the tyranny in that?

So you are of the opinion that all of your rights are issued by a government, and they cannot take away what they give?

did I say that?

Are you really gonna hold that divorce is something government "takes away"?

The individuals involved in the marriage decide, it is not coercive or done in
a unitary fashion by the government.

Tell me, has a the government ever taken away a marriage without the consent of the
parties involved?

I've already said, repeatedly, that gay marriage ought to be sanctioned by government to the same extent as heterosexual marriage. There is no reason that anyone other than government must be force to compromise themselves and embrace it socially or spiritually.

You start off fine but insert a giant "but" that effectively recants your first sentence.

How many tens of millions of people get married? People spend wild amounts of money
to get married because clearly it means something to them, so it seems like you are
ignoring that marriage is a perfectly acceptable practice that is not just novelty.
I think it is obvious that the individuals who desire the marriage embrace it spiritually
and socially. Again, it is their choice, it is not your business, grant them the means to
pursue their happiness even if it is just symbolic. You cannot preach libertarian doctrine
and hide behind buts that you have invented, that seriously negates the message you
outwardly promote, like a preacher who partakes in the sin he preaches against.

Let me ask you another way

Why do you feel the need to rationalize ways to obstruct the logic in allowing gays to get
married? Can't they be free enough and adult enough to decide if they want to engage in
a contract or engage in something the government has a hand in?

NO reason. Forcing them to compromise their own standards in any manner other than recognition of the legal or financial implications of the law is antithetical to freedom, and no less oppressive to them than refusal of a license is to gays.

Is that right?

You mean all these gay people wishing they could get married are actually being granted a favor?
But you are not advocating for the elimination of straight marriage because you are so pro gay
huh?

I'll be...

Gay people across this globe are all trying to institute gay marriage, but by this measure
they are all too stupid to realize that the marriage they desire is actually oppressive?

So philosophically speaking, you are doing them a favor because they are not capable of
deciding for themselves and because, unbeknown to them, it is just as oppressive to
let them get married because they might get a divorce???

If their "love and commitment" hinges upon a law or financial considerations, I submit that perhaps they should re-evaluate just how committed they actually are, and what it is they are really committed to. That applies whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.

I submit, you and other part time libertarians let gay people decide and consider
marriage based upon what ever criteria they see fit. If their motive do not fit your construct
of the world, how in the hell is it your concern or anyone else's?

Are you sure you are not hiding a different motive? It is nearly tantamount to protesting cars because
people might die in auto wrecks, unless I am missing something substantial that I have failed
to read.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by pisssss

Originally posted by Fromabove
Marriage under the Judeo-Christian God of the old and new testament is a union between and man and woman, Therefore you can put homosexuals in a church and get them married by a priest but they still will never be married. God will not honor it so even if the State and the people do, it really doesn't matter because it's not really a marriage.

Well then, let god sort it out at the gates of heaven, simple.

While we are here, let people have freedom to live how they see fit.

Now THAT I can agree with, wholeheartedly!

Well you could always help pave the way for those heavenly conversations, I'm sorry
but I don't see any skin being shed from your back to justify any objection to the
substantive part of this, the implementation. If you are not gay and not gay and married
how will you be subject to any distress or danger that outshines the current danger of
straight marriage?

Originally posted by dorkfish87
I'm gay, and I cannot speak for all gay people. However I could not care less whether churches or people recognize my looming nuptials (I'm in newyork). I'm fine with just the government certificate.

It's a matter of perspective. I grew up all my life being told that someday I'd fall in love, and be married.

Unless you've been told no in that situation it's hard to see how hurtful it can be.

If you don't like gay marriages, don't have a same sex marriage. Problem solved.

Its pretty simple isn't it?

Originally posted by Fromabove
Marriage under the Judeo-Christian God of the old and new testament is a union between and man and woman, Therefore you can put homosexuals in a church and get them married by a priest but they still will never be married. God will not honor it so even if the State and the people do, it really doesn't matter because it's not really a marriage.

Well it's a good thing we have Separation of Church and State in the United States although some people get confused. I have said this before...I am about as ALPHA as a Male can be. I live in a State...MASS...where Marriage is allowed between all sexes. I could care less.

We are all FEMALE inside the womb until a Hormonal release here and our Genomes DNA activates traits there and before you know it...we have MALES and FEMALES and People born with both Sex Organs. This is a VERY POOR AREA....for Christians to take issue with as these people are BORN THIS WAY...EITHER HAVING a Mind of a Man in a Female Body or vice Versa. This does not mean all Gays are Born Gay...some choose this Lifestyle and I am FINE WITH THAT ALSO! My only concerns come from Single Sex Parents who adopt...and NOT BECAUSE I do not think they will be Good Parents but I KNOW that a Man such as myself...needed a FATHER as well as a Mother to keep me balanced. Other than that...Marriage is not my business! Split Infinity