I think, therefore I AM

reply to post by wildtimes


So the Essene were more competent with injuries than the greatest trauma surgeons and computerized equipment available today? Sorry, my faith isn't strong enough to accept that tale as fact. What was the motive btw for all these apostles enduring the horrendous deaths they did as martyrs? I wasn't money, they died penniless.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Passions and professions are two different things.

Bull! I am just as knowledgable about history as I am about counseling. I don't subscribe to a "degree" mentality. That is really narrow minded of you. You have no respect for "self-taught" people? Academia is NOT the be all and end all, and in the end, what higher education is supposed to teach (in the Liberal Arts at least), is HOW TO LEARN.

How many people without "formal, institutionalized education" have made huge differences in the world? LOTS. Cripes.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

So the Essene were more competent with injuries than the greatest trauma surgeons and computerized equipment available today? Sorry, my faith isn't strong enough to accept that tale as fact. What was the motive btw for all these apostles enduring the horrendous deaths they did as martyrs?

We've had this convo, NuT. The story of being stabbed through the heart, and the excessive scourging, and the supposedly broken bones, and sweating blood, that you take as "truth" has already been refuted quite adequately.

Their motive would have been that they SAW HIM WALKING AROUND, EATING, DRINKING, STILL WITH MARKS OF THE WOUNDS. He was ALIVE, and they SAW HIM, and of course they would NOT RECANT that they saw him!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Each of those words, as I looked closer, turned out to be a kind of person that was forever damned. I saw homosexuals, wiccans, psychics, rockers, and all sorts of other personalities decorating that sign. All people I know. All people going to hell.

And these people will be judged for the entire time they are alive. And you talk about peace? Give me a break.

Exactly. That's why I posted to NuT that people are shunned, ridiculed, ostracized, demonized, and condemned by some who call themselves Christians....
and I am absolutely opposed to it.

And likewise so am I. You are fully aware of my hatred for religion and what it teaches people. Redemption and religion couldn't be further polar opposites.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Passions and professions are two different things.

Bull! I am just as knowledgable about history as I am about counseling. I don't subscribe to a "degree" mentality. That is really narrow minded of you. You have no respect for "self-taught" people? Academia is NOT the be all and end all, and in the end, what higher education is supposed to teach (in the Liberal Arts at least), is HOW TO LEARN.

How many people without "formal, institutionalized education" have made huge differences in the world? LOTS. Cripes.

Have you ever held an ancient manuscript in your hands?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Have you ever held the remains of an ancient conspiracy whose purposes are unknown?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You are fully aware of my hatred for religion and what it teaches people.

Yes, and you are fully aware that your "version" of what happened to him on the cross is PURELY speculative. There is plenty of documentation and time-line analysis that refutes your extraordinary claims of his heart being stabbed. And he had a small foot-board, it was common practice.

Just because you have chosen to believe it was as horrible as you think, and some surgeon speculates, DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So the Essene were more competent with injuries than the greatest trauma surgeons and computerized equipment available today? Sorry, my faith isn't strong enough to accept that tale as fact. What was the motive btw for all these apostles enduring the horrendous deaths they did as martyrs?

We've had this convo, NuT. The story of being stabbed through the heart, and the excessive scourging, and the supposedly broken bones, and sweating blood, that you take as "truth" has already been refuted quite adequately.

Their motive would have been that they SAW HIM WALKING AROUND, EATING, DRINKING, STILL WITH MARKS OF THE WOUNDS. He was ALIVE, and they SAW HIM, and of course they would NOT RECANT that they saw him!

No it has not!!! In the thread you mentioned a certain member I will not name attempted to debunk the professional opinion of a world-renowned Pathologist with over 15,000 autopsies under his belt with a pediatric gastroenterolgist!!! Then you all gave yourselves high-fives and attaboys. What that member tried to do basically was debunk Einstein with a high school math teacher.

reply to post by wildtimes


Purely speculative?... Yes of course, I suppose this was before the high def camera. There are world renowned ATHEIST historians that don't deny Christ died on a Roman cross based upon the historical record. But we are all just speculating of course.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No it has not!!!

Yes, it has. I'm sorry you don't like it, but the doctor in question was presented a "what if" scenario that is NOT based on any true, real corpse or autopsy. It was based on "what if they did this and that to him?"

And NO WHERE had I EVER heard that he was pierced through the heart EXCEPT FROM YOU. I was raised a Christian, remember? I KNOW THE STORY.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There are world renowned ATHEIST historians that don't deny Christ died on a Roman cross based upon the historical record.

And there are also world renowned historians that DO deny that he DIED. Based on the historical records. The problem is that you and I can find historians that support our theories. ALL OF THEM are speculative, because NO ONE alive was THERE.

EDIT:
I know this really pisses you off, NuT, but this wild story of how brutally mutilated he was is NOT scripture. It was Mel Gibson's depiction, and someone else's imagination that added in all the brutality. NONE of it was recorded at the time.

Studies of the shroud of Turin also indicate HEALING BALMS. As well as CONTINUED BLEEDING that matches the wounds on the hands, head, torso, and feet, which MEANS HE WAS NOT DEAD. Dead bodies do not continue to BLEED! FACT!!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Have you ever held the remains of an ancient conspiracy whose purposes are unknown?

Clarify please.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No it has not!!!

Yes, it has. I'm sorry you don't like it, but the doctor in question was presented a "what if" scenario that is NOT based on any true, real corpse or autopsy. It was based on "what if they did this and that to him?"

And NO WHERE had I EVER heard that he was pierced through the heart EXCEPT FROM YOU. I was raised a Christian, remember? I KNOW THE STORY.

he doctor in question looked only at the details provided in the eyewitness accounts. You didn't even read the AMA report did you? And Im not sure your average pastor knows the medical significance of blood and water spewing forth from the rib stab wound, so I think it would be prudent to leave those details to the Pathologists. That's sorta their thing. The emergence of the water and blood indicate the cause of death was "heart failure due to hypovolemic shock and pleural and pericardial effusions".

reply to post by wildtimes


The death of Jesus Christ on a cross has been called "the greatest attested to fact in all of human history." It has multiple eyewitness accounts and even hostile source attestation. Christianity's ancient enemies didn't even deny that. One of the most solid evidences on the planet is hostile source attestation.

Inaccurate statements never piss me off. The Roman scourging, his beating, the head lacerations, his crucifixion, and impalement are all stated in scripture.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Excuse me, but how did he survive that long with a HEART WOUND? A man dies very quickly when bleeding from the heart.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That manuscript is the remains of a conspiracy designed to teach the basics of spirituality while man was advancing in science. Science was the other half of the puzzle needed to discover the truth of the universe, such as we've seen in the Ancient Mysteries thread.

Christianity is basic addition. True spirituality is Calculus, maybe higher.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Excuse me, but how did he survive that long with a HEART WOUND? A man dies very quickly when bleeding from the heart.

He didn't. The impalement was Roman protocol to ensure a body was dead before allowing it to be removed from a cross for burial by the condemned person's family. He had hung for over 2 hours motionless in the exhale position before the impalement. The reason His legs were not broken and the others legs were is the praetorian guardsmen already knew He was dead.

In a crucifixion the only way a person can get another breath is to lift themselves and inhale.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Name this manuscript.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Have you ever held an ancient manuscript in your hands?

Name this one. ^

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Have you ever held an ancient manuscript in your hands?

Name this one. ^

edit on 19-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I wasn't implying I had. That's why I trust folks like the late Dr. Bruce M. Metzger.