Fire in the Sky: Travis Walton Update

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by Furbs

 

I don't care which theory you want to talk about regarding the other men. 

Travis Walton's body wasn't reacting like it should have for someone who hadn't eaten and had lost 10 pounds. This is why his story falls apart. Physical evidence is the key, and the physical evidence points toward hoax.

I really dont see how this makes the story fall apart? Us humans,
as dumb and as primative as we are, like to think we have all the
answers.

Lets just say he was taken by aliens. Whos to say they did not give
him some cant of supplement for food? Are we that smart to know
that ET would not do that, or we think we are that smart

To say this proves that the case is a hoax is clutching at straws.

Regardless of whether or not they gave him some kind of food supplement, a very fit individual lost 10 lbs in a matter of days. There would be acetone in his urine because of the muscles that were eroded. Your ignorance of biology doesn't negate the basic science involved.

reply to post by Furbs


Yes acetone is a type of ketone. However it is never released in great amounts from your body due to the fact it is absorbed by the liver. Trace amounts show up in urine. Using the absence of acetone in his urine is a very weak argument. Try again.

And now we are taking the national enquirers word on anything? Give me a break. Once again the debunkers fail to bring any actual evidence. Just grasping at straws.

reply to post by Furbs

Also please stop referring to it as Acetone. The proper word is ketones. Or to what you are referring ketonuria would be the proper wording.

Acetone, while a ketone, is never found in large amounts in the body. I work with acetone quite a bit and if you have large amounts in your urine you got huge problems.

Originally posted by TheIrishJihad
reply to post by Furbs

 

Yes acetone is a type of ketone. However it is never released in great amounts from your body due to the fact it is absorbed by the liver. Trace amounts show up in urine. Using the absence of acetone in his urine is a very weak argument. Try again.

Normally yes, but in cases of starvation the problem is compounded, because the body is eating itself.. including the liver.

And now we are taking the national enquirers word on anything? Give me a break. Once again the debunkers fail to bring any actual evidence. Just grasping at straws.

If you throw out the National Inquirer evidence, you still have this latest test that he has failed.

Originally posted by TheIrishJihad
reply to post by Furbs

 

Also please stop referring to it as Acetone. The proper word is ketones. Or to what you are referring ketonuria would be the proper wording.

Acetone, while a ketone, is never found in large amounts in the body. I work with acetone quite a bit and if you have large amounts in your urine you got huge problems.

Acetone is a ketone. Specifically one of the ketones produced during starvation.

This isn't exactly hidden knowledge.

reply to post by Furbs

Normally yes, but in cases of starvation the problem is compounded, because the body is eating itself.. including the liver.

This is a not-so-accurate simplification of ketosis, or the formation of ketone bodies. The body isn't exactly eating itself. It simply means it has changed from digesting carbohydrates to fats. Ketone bodies are the end-product of fat digestion. And it isn't digesting or eating the liver. Medically speaking, diabetics with increased levels of carbohydrates or sugar, or low levels of insulin may produce ketone bodies in the urine from fat metabolism. It occurs in Type 1 or IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes mellitus). When there isn't enough insulin to shift carbohydrates from the blood into cells this may occur.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Furbs

 

Normally yes, but in cases of starvation the problem is compounded, because the body is eating itself.. including the liver.

This is a not-so-accurate simplification of ketosis, or the formation of ketone bodies. The body isn't exactly eating itself. It simply means it has changed from digesting carbohydrates to fats. Ketone bodies are the end-product of fat digestion. And it isn't digesting or eating the liver. Medically speaking, diabetics with increased levels of carbohydrates or sugar, or low levels of insulin may produce ketone bodies in the urine from fat metabolism. It occurs in Type 1 or IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes mellitus). When there isn't enough insulin to shift carbohydrates from the blood into cells this may occur.

Layman's terms being what they are, the simplification was appropriate and accurate for those not familiar with the medical terminology. Nothing you have posted refutes the claim.


Starvation and Dehydration cause acetone to be present in urine. Walton had none present. Walton did not lose 10 lbs, starve, or go without fluids during the time he was gone.

reply to post by Furbs


These absolutes that you have posted do not prove or disprove anything. Be suspicious of absolutes. If you were trained in medicine you would know this without significant explanation. And no one routinely tests for acetones. A simple urinalysis would detect ketones, without further differentiation of acetone. Indeed, more than just ketones would indicate starvation and/or dehydration. Mr. Walton's hematocrit would be elevated or concentrated from dehydration. Additionally, his BUN, or blood urea nitrogen, would also be concentrated or elevated. The urinalysis for ketone bodies doesn't hold up substantially as a single indicator for anything other than fat metabolism.

You're clinging to a single fact that you have no idea how to clinically relate it to human physiology. You're not listening...

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Furbs

 

These absolutes that you have posted do not prove or disprove anything. Be suspicious of absolutes. If you were trained in medicine you would know this without significant explanation. And no one routinely tests for acetones. A simple urinalysis would detect ketones, without further differentiation of acetone. Indeed, more than just ketones would indicate starvation and/or dehydration. Mr. Walton's hematocrit would be elevated or concentrated from dehydration. Additionally, his BUN, or blood urea nitrogen, would also be concentrated or elevated. The urinalysis for ketone bodies doesn't hold up substantially as a single indicator for anything other than fat metabolism.

You're not listening...

edit on 21-6-2012 by Cosmic911 because: (no reason given)

He was tested extensively after he returned. His body didn't show any signs of dehydration or starvation, the lack of acetone in his urine being the most easily understood. Blood was taken, urine, hair samples, as well as finger nail and skin scrapings.

By the time he returned, he was already internationally renowned. There was a lot of interest in his story, and people wanted answers.

Even with all of this information..

Starvation and Dehydration to a loss of 10 lbs does not occur without significant levels of acetone being present in the urine.

reply to post by Furbs


Besides the urinalysis, are there any documents on the web that show the results of all this extensive testing? Including the urinalysis report and blood specimens? Also, the chain of custody for the urine and blood work performed?

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Furbs

 

Besides the urinalysis, are there any documents on the web that show the results of all this extensive testing? Including the urinalysis report and blood specimens? Also, the chain of custody for the urine and blood work performed?

Why don't you do some research and let us know what you find?

reply to post by Furbs


That's a cop out and you know it. The burden of proof is on you to present the evidence that you are so desperately clinging to. You have no idea what you're talking about or how to apply it clinically or physiologically.

www.mufon.com...

here is the deal with the urine sample


I asked Dr. Kandell whether this "first" urine sample had been obtained
in his presence so he could be certain that it had really come from Travis. Kandellreplied: "Duane gave me a jar and he said 'this is Travis's first voided specimen
since he's been found.' All I have is his [Duane's] word for it." (GSW's Spaulding told me that prior to Travis's return, he had urged Duane to obtain an early
urine specimen because there would be speculation that there might be drug involvement. If Travis's condition prompted Duane to believe there was drug-involvement,
the urine specimen he gave Dr. Kandell could have come from Duane or his brotherin-law.) Dr. Kandell told me that there is no possible way to determine if the
original specimen really did come from Travis.

According to Steward, when '___' is injected, no traces of the drug can be found
in blood, urine or saliva samples 18-24 hours after injection. When the Waltons
first came to Steward's office, Duane was extremely anxious that Travis undergo full
lab tests. But by later that afternoon, when Dr. Kandell and Dr. Salts arrived,Duane
only wanted a more casual physical check-up. It was not until the afternoon of Nov. 13,
more than 48-hours after Travis's return, that he came to Dr. Kandell's office to
give blood and urine samples for lab analysis. Lab tests of these samples showed no traces
of illicit drugs (passed the 18 to 24 hour where it would have been detected)


It might be argued that the sample did come from Travis and that he was fed
aboard the UFO. But in his frequent tellings of his alleged experience, Travis
never has mentioned being fed while he was "conscious." It might then be claimed
that perhaps while he was "unconscious," he was fed intravenously and this could
then explain the puncture mark in his right elbow. But as Dr. Kandell noted, the
wound is not over a large vein, which would rule out intravenous feeding.

injecting lsd under the skin will cause a delayed effect

travis brother told the doc that travis was good person and never did drugs, but travis himself told the doc that 5 years before he did weed and lsd

why did the brother take travis all the way to phoenix??

Investigation showed that Duane was correct about there not being a physician
in Snowflake. However, only 16 miles south, in the town of Show Low, there is a
physician named Dr. Carver who operates a medical clinic there. If speedy medical
aid was Duane's principal concern, he did not have to drive all the way to Phoenix,
unless Duane had a family doctor there in whom he had great confidence. When I
asked about this possibility, Duane replied: "Wo. Nobody in my family is sick, ever.

another interesting bit: When the area near the " zapping site" was checked for radiation by a Forest Service
employee using a Geiger-counter, it showed a normal background level [p. 61]. When Mike
Rogers suggested c h e c k i ng his "hard h a t" and that of Allen Dalis, the Ge i g e r - c o u n t er showed
increased radia ion. But n e i t h er Rogers nor Da l is had g o t t en close to the (alleged) UFO.
Travis claims t h at "strange me t al f r agment s" were f o u nd by Spaulding at the site, but
he did not visit the site u n t il several days a f t er it had been searched by law e n f o r c eme nt
o f f i c e rs who h ad f o u nd n o t h i n g. S p a u l d i ng never mentioned any such f r a g m e n ts to me.

In Travis' recent book [p. 138] he claims that Spaulding gave the fragments to his brother Doane.
While Travis now claims these fragments were important physical evidence, we can not find any
mention of them in his first book. There was no mention of power outages in nearby towns in
any of the many articles in Arizona newspapers at the time. Nor did Travis mention the alleged
power outages in his first book, so far as we can find. (Neither book co

For anyone interested, I came across the notes from "Ground Saucer Watch," first UFO organization on the scene when he went missing, Its pretty compelling that the family were odd and on a UFO bender before this incident. Interviews the Walton family conducted by pro UFO doctors, they suspected a hoax. see below notes:

1. Walton never boarded the UFO. This fact is supported by the six witnesses and the polygraph test results.
2. The entire Walton family has had a continual UFO history. The Walton boys have reported observing 10 to 15 separate UFO sightings (very high).
3. When Duane was questioned about his brother's disappearance, he stated that "Travis will be found, that UFO's are friendly." GSW countered, "How do you know Travis will be found?" Duane said "I have a feeling, a strong feeling." GSW asked "If the UFO 'captors' are going to return Travis, will you have a camera to record this great occurrence?" Duane, "No, if I have a camera 'they' will not return."
4. The Walton's mother showed no outward emotion over the 'loss' of Travis. She said that UFO's will not harm her son, he will be returned and that UFO's have been seen by her family many times.

"Ground Saucer Watch" Memo on the Walton Incident
Conclusions (undated: probably December, 1975)
www.debunker.com...

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Furbs

 

Besides the urinalysis, are there any documents on the web that show the results of all this extensive testing? Including the urinalysis report and blood specimens? Also, the chain of custody for the urine and blood work performed?

Chain of custody issues that I posted above....

Dr. Kandell told me that there is no possible way to determine if the original specimen really did come from Travis.

travis told his mom, if he got taken by a ufo to not worry, he would not be harmed and would be returned...like a week or so before the incident. how would he know that and who goes around saying that???

the guy in charge of the group working in the forest was about to face his 2nd default on this type of job. They couldn't finish the job because he was moonlighting on 2 other jobs and lied about it to his employer.

they never worked in the dark (only on that day!!!)

so this "act of god" just happens at the perfect time.

Sorry to sound lazy,but i have looked but dont really now where to start, would someone be kind enough to give me a link to travis's actual thread (or threads), id really like to read it, its strange but im intrigued, but theres a part of me that DOESNT want to read it because of the pasting he got on here.

I'm confused over this debate about acetones/ketones in Walton's urine sample.

Did Travis lose 10lbs? Is that a a fact? Was his weight actually measured at any time in 1975?

He states he thought he was returned shortly after his "abduction" but apparently 5 days had passed and he had a heavy beard growth.

If we believe his story then is it possible that the laws of physics were applied and he was abducted and taken in an alien spacecraft that then travelled at immense speed. Meaning that time would pass much more slowly for Travis than it would on earth according to relativity theory. That would negate the theory about his ketones to some extent. No matter how theoretical that situation may be.

But how did he then lose 10lb and still grow a heavy beard?

What are the actual facts on record here?

Originally posted by research100
travis told his mom, if he got taken by a ufo to not worry, he would not be harmed and would be returned...like a week or so before the incident. how would he know that and who goes around saying that???

.

*crickets*

is also what I heard when I mentioned the family.

He was planning it a week in advance would be the answer to your question.