Christian doublespeak? Say it ain't so!

reply to post by windword

Darkness is an adjective describing a degree of light. There exist opposite ends of everything. Hot cold, good bad, fair unjust, etc. Believing that these ends are separate entities is dualism.

Correct the word darkness merely describes the absence of that which exists because it was created. Darkness describes the absence of light and does not exist.

Cold does not exist. It is the absence of heat. Cold is an adjective. Heat is a noun.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife


True, ritual does vary among Juristictions. What then do you think of certain Continental Lodges where all Biblical allusions are not present in the ritual?

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by AussieAmandaC
Unfortunately it is those same religions/groups which have caused the push and pull of the cosmic energies with their 'sacred' rites and workings, and as someone else said on the other thread, it is only your top fellows who know the consequences of what they do, the rest of you are occupied and content that you are part of something 'special'.

It really is sad that so many people believe this blindly. I will ask you an honest question, have you ever studied the structure of Freemasonry or are you just taking the word of all the people who sound intelligent when talking about it?

I actually said religions/groups, I didn't mention freemasonry at all, you did.

and as for 'sounding' intelligent, there was a 'desperate to share' flavour to that guys posts, he believes, that's what made his posts interesting to me and the fact that it's a 'mans' group, of which I have particular interest.
I on the other hand reserve my own judgement and continue to learn
and I heard arrogance in the rest of the responses...and ambiguously evasive comments compared to the volume of links/vids and information provided by the other guy.

You all sound just as confused as any one who questions the why/how of what they do. Do you follow blindly?

Man and his every expanding need to over complicate the simplest of things, and I thought women were bad with their gamut of hormones and emotions...

I have a question for you........

Who sits in the white? and who are the red dudes?
I have another one...
do you know who's coming, and who never left? and who is trapped, and who wishes to stay?

Serious questions from someone wanting to learn

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife

Then you should not mind conceding that ritual varies from one jurisdiction to another.

Not the line I have posted.

The way you have written it is not found in any ritual.

It is, however, widely quoted the way you have written it on anti-mason sites such as scripturecatholic and evangelicaltruth. But they are wrong.

Well the ritual work which includes that part is cyphered, so I cannot dispute your claims without revealing the cypher.

The words in question do not dispute my meaning, so I will yield the point.

Here is a copy of the Bahnson manual which shows the North-East corner without the cyphered lecture.

On page 17 it is shown merely as one hand receiving the other. And titled as, the Demand.

Bahnson Manual

Originally posted by no1smootha
What then do you think of certain Continental Lodges where all Biblical allusions are not present in the ritual?

I don't think about them.

My lodge is the Universe, not a temple built with human hands.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

As it is for all Freemasons, the actual physical building is symbolic as you stated.

You simply dismiss my question without any thought whatsoever?
I think it is a valid question. If you object to Biblical allusions in Masonic ritual, because they imply (in your mind) that Masonry is a path to salvation, then what of Masonry (even if considered irregular by many Brothers) who make no such allusions?

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife

Here is a copy of the Bahnson manual which shows the North-East corner without the cyphered lecture.

Bahnson Manual

Thank you for the link. That book was printed in 1892, and I will certainly take the time to read it.

On page 17 it is shown merely as one hand receiving the other.

It's not one hand receiving the other. The picture depicts a certain lesson in charity which is given to all newly made masons, but I will not elaborate on it further here.

reply to post by AussieAmandaC

Who sits in the white? and who are the red dudes? I have another one... do you know who's coming, and who never left? and who is trapped, and who wishes to stay?

What are you referring to? Can you explain, or post a photo or link?

Originally posted by no1smootha
You simply dismiss my question without any thought whatsoever?

Yes.

Originally posted by no1smootha
I think it is a valid question. If you object to Biblical allusions in Masonic ritual, because they imply (in your mind) that Masonry is a path to salvation, then what of Masonry (even if considered irregular by many Brothers) who make no such allusions?

I have not made a single objection to anything.

Nor have I implied anything.

My statement was simply: If one believes the Bible as the absolute truth, then they do not belong in Freemasonry for Jesus already passed Judgement, opened the lodge, and is soon to return.

That is my statement based on the facts I have seen.

If you do not believe the Bible is the absolute truth, then the statement does not apply to you.

I have not made a declaration of belief myself.

I do not live by belief, but by faith. Faith that everything is as it should be. Faith that what Jesus taught was correct and his judgements are just.

Faith that all are my Brothers regardless of their own belief.

Words cannot divide the light from the dark. They divide the darkness from the light.

Originally posted by no1smootha
As it is for all Freemasons, the actual physical building is symbolic as you stated.

Why would you settle for a symbol?

Is the real thing not enough?

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

My statement was simply: If one believes the Bible as the absolute truth, then they do not belong in Freemasonry for Jesus already passed Judgement, opened the lodge, and is soon to return.

You are objecting to those who believe in the absolute truth of the Bible being in Freemasonry, because Jesus is the way, thereby implying that Freemasonry considers itself a path to salvation.


"house not built by human hands" is a metaphor, as we both used it.

Originally posted by Saurus
The picture depicts a certain lesson in charity which is given to all newly made masons, but I will not elaborate on it further here.

The picture represents Charity and is labeled as "The Demand".

Can charity be demanded?

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife
So, if you believe the Bible is the whole truth...

Thankfully I do not.

reply to post by no1smootha


sorry...no...
the questions were clearly not aimed at you, since you do not know the answers, no offence intended.

Originally posted by no1smootha
You are objecting to those who believe in the absolute truth of the Bible being in Freemasonry, because Jesus is the way, thereby implying that Freemasonry is a path to salvation.

I am not implying anything. If one believes that the Bible is the Word of God, then at the end of the story in the Bible in the book of Revelations chapter 22, it is written:

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It makes VERY clear that all has been done. All that is needed to be said has been said. Jesus's judgement IS the Lodge and without are, dogs, whoremongers, sorcerors, murderers, idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Read the words yourself, it is the END.

What is left is not running off to seek more light.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus Come.

May his grace be with you.

reply to post by AussieAmandaC


No Freemason knows what you are talking about because as you worded your question there was nothing Masonic about it.

Here is one for you...
Who is the Master, who makes the grass green?

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife
The picture represents Charity and is labeled as "The Demand".

Can charity be demanded?

The demand is from the Entered Apprentice Degree and is placed upon Masons to be charitable to all mankind.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife
The picture represents Charity and is labeled as "The Demand".

Can charity be demanded?

The demand is from the Entered Apprentice Degree and is placed upon Masons to be charitable to all mankind.

Can charity be demanded?

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife
Can charity be demanded?

You are also completely unaware of the ritual. The Master of the Lodge is demanding certain material objects from the newly initiated Brother. The explanation of which is used as a teaching allegory to help others. There is no demand made to be charitable, only an admonishment.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife
Can charity be demanded?

You are also completely unaware of the ritual. The Master of the Lodge is demanding certain material objects from the newly initiated Brother. The explanation of which is used as a teaching allegory to help others. There is no demand made to be charitable, only an admonishment.

They are demanded to give something the worshipful master knows they do not have to give. Thereby feeling guilty and inadequate that they are unprepared even though they were made that way be a supposed brother.

To which the worshipful master then further strikes their conscience by forgiving them this short coming.