Christian doublespeak? Say it ain't so!

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Oposing viewpoints from my point is a duality. That the duality at one point desolves and the oposing sides no longer exist do not mean there have not been a duality. Strength has for me nothing to do with it. If we have a duality for instance between the Jewish faith and Christian faith then it does not matter how many people are Jewish or Christian.

edit on 19-6-2012 by apushforenlightment because: spellchecking

Ah, but if you track that back to the initial quote, you'll see that the doctrine specified equality of the opposed polarities to qualify as a "duality" under that doctrine.

Therefore, if they are inequally matched, if one cannot overcome the other, there is no duality under the definition provided.

Originally posted by Saurus

I do, on the other hand believe that the concept of satan is in the scriptures by design so as to make people do the right thing for fear of punishment.

That may be, but if it's the case, people need to think - when I was a child, it was my OWN father that punished me. The rest of the world didn't care if I ran wild.

So, if they are expecting punishment from Satan....

Originally posted by Saurus


As far as I understand it, it cannot be seen from any location, by any method, and we would still not be able to detect it were we in a different location.

Whatever it is, it is real "stuff" with mass....actual matter. There is a tug of war going on between it and dark energy (whatever *that* is!). Its presence must be deduced by its gravitational effects. If we were in a spaceship and came upon a clump of it, it would be hard to miss.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I do not pretend to have the answers only more questions now.
Maybe his vulnerabilities and emotions like pride and ego are greater than ours.
Again it seems to be a matter of faith.
However i do respect your point of view and time spent pondering.

The OPs brilliant question has revealed that critical thinking skills and faith are in mutual opposition.

This is why the Roman church was anti-education, anti-Gutenberg, and eventually established their own "schools". This is why the Mormons set up BYU. This is why in some countries they only want children to read the Koran at school... /rant off

Faith stands in contrast to experience, which is where evidence comes from. Evidence can be shared and the gathering of evidence can be demonstrated in public, repeatedly.

OR you can believe what you've been told and remain essentially defenseless against words thrown at you by your "betters"... In which case you'll probably end up writing checks to God.

Now see I wouldnt get involved in anything like that without evidence... but that's me

back to FAITH VS EVIDENCE... As I understand it, evidence of any kind would destroy my faith and ruin the game.

God Damn that's funny!

If this is NOT funny, it is because you have faith.

Dont be afraid, you can always put it back into the book you got it from.

Think of the life you might lead if you were concerned with matters that could be experienced.

your life is a series of experiences.

That is all.

PS I'm still waiting for a christian "thinker" to invoke Pascal's Gambit... did I miss it? its a big thread

Originally posted by network dude
So here I am, looking for some information and I come across yet another Christian hate site. There are plenty of them so finding one is not very hard. But as I am reading, I am amazed.

I was looking for some information on a book called A Bridge to Light. Then I see this:

A Bridge to Light Falsely Claims that Christianity Affirms Dualism
A Bridge to Light misrepresents Christian doctrine in several areas. For example, it claims that Christianity accepts the principle of dualism as taught by Zoroaster [p. 311]. Zoroaster was an ancient Iranian false prophet who founded the religion called Zoroastrianism. He taught that there are two equal and mutually hostile forces in the world. One is the source of all good, while the other is the source of all evil. [Walter A. Elwell, ed. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House Co., 1984), p. 334]. Scottish Rite Freemasonry embraces belief in this type of dualism. According to A Bridge to Light, dualism is found in both the teachings and symbols of the Scottish Rite [pp. 18, 81, 133].
Response:
The concept of the universe as a duality is incompatible with biblical Christianity. Christian theologian Millard J. Erickson writes that "the biblical teaching on creation disallows any type of dualism" [Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983), p. 371]. Dualism is incompatible with Christianity because it rejects the Christian belief that God is all-powerful (omnipotent). The religion of Zoroastrianism rejects the omnipotence of God because of its belief in dualism [Christian Theology, p. 414]. A Bridge to Light's claim that Christianity derived its belief in dualism from Zoroastrianism is untrue both historically and theologically.

link to Christian hate website

So I have to ask, is there a devil or not?

While I understand your confusion, and your question, this isn't an issue of doublespeak at all.
Duality suggests that there are two equal opposing forces of light/dark, good/evil.

While the Bible does present a light/dark worldview, it in no way expresses a doctrine in which the two are equal. Satan is not God's equal; he is a created being (cf Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28: Satan, then known as 'Lucifer', was a guardian of the holiness of God, one of the cherubim)... and while he is incredibly powerful, and is the "prince of the power of the air", his days are numbered.

This is what the snippet you were reading was expressing; not that there is no conflict of light & darkness, but that the conflict is not a 'fair fight', so to speak... that God is far greater than the devil. This is a direct contradiction of the core tenets of dualism.

Hope that helps.

Originally posted by uwascallywabbit
back to FAITH VS EVIDENCE... As I understand it, evidence of any kind would destroy my faith and ruin the game.

Silly wabbit, tricks are for kids!

Faith is ever present.

Evidence can be conjured.

If I say an apple is an apple, you would believe it if you saw the apple, could feel the apple, smell, and taste the apple.

Silly wabbit...

It is only an apple because you have faith based on the word apple. You have been taught it, you have been convinced of it, and you will not waiver from it for it is all you know. It is an apple.

However, to me it could very well be an orange if I choose it to be.

I too can name things.

The same with evidence. It is conjured up.

If you say that apple is not an orange, all I would have to do would be isolate children at birth, teach them that apples are indeed oranges and what you know as apples are turnips!

In one generation I will have a generation convinced that apples are oranges and turnips fall out of trees.

So knowing with what ease evidence can be doctored, tampered with, distorted, reversed, and utterly obfuscated, I will always fall back on faith. Because even if you claim to believe evidence first, it is only based on the faith you have in that evidence.

Pascal was a rookie.

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by AussieAmandaC

 

No Freemason knows what you are talking about because as you worded your question there was nothing Masonic about it.

Here is one for you...
Who is the Master, who makes the grass green?

edit on 19-6-2012 by no1smootha because: (no reason given)

To the first...no problem, it wasn't a trick question. There was nothing Masonic about my wording....and there is a very good reason for that but it's okay if you don't know too.

To the second...well, I'm the master of my own destiny, and my senses tell me it's green, so that must be me too,

If you're asking about ownership I might well ask you....who do you think owns that grass?

From early on Christians are taught not to ask too many questions, but just believe, and this they call faith. Believing in something without any proof. Once disbelief is suspended, then it is far easier to heap on more "beliefs". It becomes easier and easier to just believe what we are told.

That works for the government too because then they can also get you to just believe what they tell you as well. Sort of an extension of the already just believe it training we have received from organized religion.

This indoctrination over a life time in church, school, whatever bears the ultimate fruit when we watch the TV news and they tell us all kind of stuff that we take for true because they say so. We don't need any proof, we believe!

Wheres that WMD? Evil regime kills its peoples! The bad guys are a different religion! Heres a gun, go kill the bad guys! The church has a "pulpit" and so do schools and the news "desk".

Its that entire "belief system" that leads to a "Matrix" style awakening and some confusion because it is hard to disbelieve all the lies that have been fed to us our whole lives. "Plato's Allegory of the Caves" comes to mind also.

Originally posted by intrptr
From early on Christians are taught not to ask too many questions, but just believe, and this they call faith. Believing in something without any proof. Once disbelief is suspended, then it is far easier to heap on more "beliefs". It becomes easier and easier to just believe what we are told.

Who are these Christians you speak of?

I know some christians who believe blindly what others tell them. I also know some muslims, atheists, (insert label here) who believe what others tell them blindly.

But not all!

Why do people believe what others tell them blindly?

It comes from trust. There is an expectation of trust between two people, especially when they gather under a banner like Christianity or even Freemasonry. We expect to be able to trust each other.

Yet, scripture reveals to the Jew, Christian, and Muslim:

3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

And even the candidate to Masonry must first confess to: "In whom do you put your Trust?"

If it isn't in God, you are lead away...

Trust is broken in Man. Each man is out for their own self interests.

Therefore, to thine own self be true and put your trust in God.

So let me ask you, In whom do you put your trust?

the "Catholic Church" has the "SMOKE OF SATAN" within it... (or Vatican i should say )- research father Malachi Martin....and others

I would like the atheist's ( and even the faithful ) to research the "Third Secret of Fatima"

Look and research.... take a double take : )

tell me what u find!!!

be sure to include testimonies from Exorcist's


Jesus Christ's teachings still stand to this day....He's Undeniable....however I would also like you to look to the book of REVELATIONS

Originally posted by Foreshadow
Jesus Christ's teachings still stand to this day....He's Undeniable....however I would also like you to look to the book of REVELATIONS

Yes, move quickly to the ending.

There you will see that Jesus has already passed judgement and will be returning quickly.

Do not lead others astray.

The world has been judged and he reigns from the throne.

He comes quickly.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

Why do people believe what others tell them blindly?

I thought I covered that. It begins early in life. When we are all sitting in rows in church or at school and we are told something is true without any proof and we must go along with that or risk being ostracized by the teacher, the other kids and our families. Thats how they train us to go along. It takes years of this kind of combined indoctrination from all sides to get us to conform. When you are older, you just accept stuff at face value.

Originally posted by Awen24
Satan is not God's equal; he is a created being (cf Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28: Satan, then known as 'Lucifer', was a guardian of the holiness of God, one of the cherubim).

Of course, that's not what's in the Bible at all… That is people taking Milton and Dante's fictions, written 1500 years AFTER the Bible, as Gospel.

Isaiah 14 isn't about a fallen angel, it's about a Babylonian king who was arrogant, but lost his power. (See 14:3)

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by deadeyedick

 

satan is real and he is a tool for strong delusion among other things.
He is used to weed out the faithless in the end.
You believe in air yet you only see and feel its effects.

If satan is real, then God is not omnipotent, more like just impotent.

If satan is real, then God has vulnerabilities and human emotions like pride and ego. If satan is real, then neither satan nor God is worth worshiping or fearing.

edit on 19-6-2012 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

Scripture, from first to last page, is about a Creator who is omnipotent, so we rule out the first option. Scripture, from the first to last page, confirms that Sons are being raised for His Kingdom, and that the fear of death keeps most bound in this life. Jesus now holds that key. Therefore, there is no fear in that love. But if you even give an hour to thinking about the world, what is the beast using to influence thoughts? Fear - fear of cataclysms, fear of alien invasion, fear of being called a bigot or intolerant, fear of climate change, fear of overpopulation - FEAR OF DEATH. These fears are used to herd people into desired solutions. Millions today believe that depopulation is an acceptable idea, yet, they believe it only if they are not on the list to go. Why? To save their own hide.

Trust in God's omnipotence is perhaps the biggest message in scripture. If you trust in Him completely, obedience follows. If you don't, disobedience follows. We can see this in everyday life in the parent child relationship. A child that implicitly trusts his father will obey his father because he knows that his father has his best interests at heart. This is the same with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He asks for full trust, and it is a process that His Faithful persevere in as our Faith grows. This is why Trust in Him has been removed by the media, the most powerful indoctrination and propaganda platform that exists.

The disconnect that you have is common in someone who has been taught, through this indoctrination, that you cannot put your faith in a "fairy tale". Well, it boils down to this - you have no desire to get down on your knees and seek him with a repentant heart to learn the truth. You'd rather believe the lies. Guess what Satan is? The father of lies. Can you not sense his role?

This isn't Heaven or Paradise. This is but man in all his own glory - humanism. It's why you think the way you do. But any person humbled by the Lord comes to Him in acknowledgement that He is Sovereign. Humanism teaches you to view this as "weakness" on the part of Christians, and it teaches you that only YOU are top dog. Either you will shake this indoctrination off, or you won't. Until then, you will fight against Him and His Sovereignty. Putting your full Faith in Him requires you to relinquish YOUR ambition, YOUR desires and YOUR ego. It isn't about YOU at all, and everything to do with His Plan for mankind. Rebel or love, those are your choices.

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me." John 13:28-31

The simpleness of the gospel message is just that. Man, in his capacity as created by Our Father, will either choose one of two options: evil and death or good and life. Jesus is "The LIFE", and there is none good but God.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

The disconnect that you have is common in someone who has been taught, through this indoctrination, that you cannot put your faith in a "fairy tale". Well, it boils down to this - you have no desire to get down on your knees and seek him with a repentant heart to learn the truth. You'd rather believe the lies. Guess what Satan is? The father of lies. Can you not sense his role?

Actually quite the opposite. I was raised in a very Christian household, and even though I'm 38, my parents are concerned that I've developed the beliefs I have developed. I feel I have outgrown the need for organized religion, and those beliefs are directly due to my life experiences, and a lot of time devoted to prayer and meditation. God speaks directly to me. The things I know are a direct result of the influence of God. I feel as though I know God personally, and I've been guided by God throughout my life. That is the extent of God's influence in this world. God did create everything here on Earth, and God wants every piece of that god-spirit to evolve and return back to it. God wants me and you to become gods, but we can't do it if we are too busy trying to follow the government of religion. Organized religion has nothing to do with God, it has everything to do with government. It is necessary to keep people acting civilly toward one another and providing control mechanisms for an elite few to control the masses.

The fear and control and satan-qualities you speak of are a result of religion, not an evil anti-god. Even man's carnal desires, and our id impulses are good things, but religion demonizes them as a control mechanism.

You'll never find God until you can stop seeing all the evil everywhere and realized everything is good, and everything has a purpose. Your greatest earthly fear, the most horrendous thing you could imagine happening to you on earth, would still be an opportunity for spiritual growth and an opportunity to become that much closer to God.

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife


Not so.

This is why when the nervous candidate stands their embarrassed and empty handed he is then told:

This was not done to triffle with or embarass your feelings, but to be a striking lesson to your conscience...

Where are you getting this stuff? None of that is in the ritual.

Originally posted by Destiny10


Check out the link given by Masonic Light, he is right.

Thank you, and I gave you a star. A Lannister always pays his debts.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Really?

Ours is extremely similar to that. The word "conscience" is different, but everything else is pretty much the same.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Masonic Light

 

Really?

Ours is extremely similar to that. The word "conscience" is different, but everything else is pretty much the same.

Yes...our ritual is not similar to that at all.