Have you ever made someone question their beliefs via religious debate?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Julio
This goes both ways;

In an evolution vs creation debate, have you managed to open the other person's mind?
Or have you ever converted (hate that word) someone?

Yes, and that person suddenly saw the ridiculousness in her religious beliefs. She then said something that, in my opinion, is how most religious people feel.

I said to her, "Do you honestly believe that there is an ALLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being, who created the WHOLE universe, and who lives in another dimension called heavennnnn?"

Her eyes went wide, as though a band-aid had been suddenly ripped from her brain. She then said, "But I HAVE to believe." With that statement comes the unspoken words: "even though I know it isn't true."

edit on 6/13/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

I used to think like that.. But it didn't take me long to realise that everything we are currently experiencing is not a product of chance. There are waaaay too many "coincidences" in this world for it all to just be exactly that, a coincidence. I have since come to the realisation that science and religion don't have to be separate. That, and also the interpretations given by any one religion is never going to be 100% correct. It takes a mixture of almost every religion and science to get anywhere close to realising what is actually going on down here. Not saying that I have figured out life or anything like that, but things start to make a lot more sense when you open your mind up to new things and other religions, spirituality and everything in between.

I don't know if there is something all knowing, all powerful and "created" the universe.. but I definitely like to think there is something else after we die than just our corpse laying in the ground.

Do you honestly believe that we are all born once, some of us only a getting a few years, minutes, or seconds to live before we die of complications from child birth or something else, and that's it? Whatever energy we have that drives our human body just disappears when we die to an unknown void? Noone down here could ever really completely understand what is going on or the process of everything, but I can tell that it sure as hell ain't as black and white as: We get one shot to live our life, and when we die nothing further happens and our own individual consciousness ceases to exist. I'm not putting words in your mouth and saying that is what you believe, but that tends to be the general concensus of the typical athiest.

I question everything, all the time.

I am a strong believer in The Lord, and try not to let my paranoid nature interfere with my relationship with God, but like I said, I question everything. I can't believe in anything without knowing full-on what I'm supporting and who I'm being lead by, even The Lord.

Having a relationship with God will, if you aren't used to it, make you feel like you're going insane, slightly. You'll feel as though when you speak to God, an answer pops into your head to whatever question you had for him. That is him responding. A lot of people don't believe that God has a role in it, that it's just your own mind manifesting the answer to a problem in your life. But the thing about that is... many times, the answer won't arrive until you've been driven to desperation, and you decide to pray. That's the key moment when you see results, in the most random, unexpected, abstract ways, and you feel the presence of something pure, something much greater than you are.

A lot of people, especially athiests (I don't mean any offense to you, I'm speaking merely out of experience and my friends' experiences) believe that prayer is merely just an act of a silly belief, making people talk to themselves, and many of them think people with strong spiritual beliefs are crazy, and want to avoid them. I think this is a key reason why some athiests avoid the possibility of converting, because they feel as though they would be mocked and looked at in the same way--like a hopeless lunatic attached to a spiritual entity who, they believe, isn't real. In fact, many Christians and other religious people feel the same way--they may pray in private, but not anywhere near others, or in church, because they fear being mocked or thought badly of.

I'm not saying all athiests are that way, but some are.

If you believe in God, you will be happier than you can imagine. All questions will seem to have an answer. All tragedies will seem to have beauty and reason. That's the best I can describe it.

The rest really is unexplainable.

I pray you find inner peace and the love of God, Shalom

reply to post by Julio
On more than one occassion I have made a christian believe satan was actually the good guy (which is just a set up) and then I go on to explain how all of it is BS. A lot of little details left out of this post but you can imagine everyone of them as a better person because of it. My favorite was my buddies Mom. Christian for 54 years. Took me 4 hours and she threw it all out the window. Beautiful

Online or something like that, where people are closed off from thought in favor of debating, then no...but thats a given.
But someone you are close to..you can drop barriers and actually discuss something with respect. You can discount anyone you don't know as just an idiot, but someone you know, trust, and realize is intelligent..that is an eye opener.

I am an atheist.
I also "believe" in ghosts..not that I know what a ghost is...but I know what I personally have experienced.

I do not feel this is in opposition to one another.
People don't need a king to exist on a land
and ghosts don't require a god in order to exist in some different state.

I don't know what a ghost is...will state that again...just what I could only categorize my experience as.

To anyone who reads and believes every word of the bible I simply say this: It is common knowledge that there are different "versions" or "transaltions" of the bible, I think the most popular at the moment would be the King James (not 100% on that), but my argument lays in that fact alone (there are many versions). The fact that there are different versions of the bible prove that everything in it has been altered in one way or another over the past 2000 (more?) years. It would be impossible for the numerous translators to inerpret the same text (Wikipedia says the KJ had 47 separate translators working on it!) in all the same ways. I remember I was looking through a particular version of the bible, looking at the verse Genesis 6:4 link, it mentioned the Nephilim, but in other versions it has been changed to "Giants". That link shows the different variations in each bible of that one verse.. You can see how it's been altered, words changed, deleted, added, etc. Now, apply that theory to the whole bible, how much of is still in it's original context and wording? How can you take it at face value when it is soooo obvious that it has been chopped and changed to fit into what the editor wants you to know and think.

I'm not saying the bible is evil, made up, or anything, as I believe it does actually contain a lot of good material with lessons that can still be applied to this day if interpreted correctly. I am just saying the people that have had power over the last couple centuries haven't always had the truth in their best interest and without flinching committed mass book burnings and rewrites of written material to further their own personal agenda's and interests.

reply to post by Julio

Response to the original post

I've been told I'm going straight to Hell for this one but I personally think it's pretty cool!

I was walking into the library at University of Arizona one time, years ago, and a campus Christian group was on the steps of the library trying to get people to join. There were maybe 10 of them and one guy was holding a sign that said "Fear this" and had some religious picture (forgot what it was now). I stopped to talk to the guy holding it, who happened to be a life-long extremely devout Christian and also the leader of the Campus Crusade for Christ for U of A. I said if God is a just and loving God then we should never have to fear him... or is it like how someone might still love an alcoholic Dad who beats them?

After he gasped at my obvious (intended) faux pas he went on about how we need to have respect... or something, I wasn't actually listening much tbh. But, after a few minutes I could tell he was very strong in faith and belief and had good knowledge of the Bible so I asked if he'd like to sit down over coffee and talk about this sometime; he was overjoyed at the prospect of saving another soul

We met every wednesday afternoon for an hour or two for about three months!

A slight bit about me before the finale...

I have always been into Philosophy and Religion. I have a pretty solid understanding and familiarity with most major religions - I gave up Christianity in my early twenties after reading the Bible a few times. At the time of our meetings a was in the Vajrayana school of Tibetan Buddhism considering becoming a monk.

As our meetings went on my friend kept saying "hmm... wow, that's a tough one, I'm gonna ask my minister and get back to you." This happened nearly every week!!

On our last meeting he said to me (pretty sure this is a direct quote) : "I need to stop our meetings. I have completely lost faith in Christianity and it's causing some problems in my family. Maybe we'll meet up again sometime and talk about Buddhsim or Reality or something."



so that's about it....
quantum mechanics, world religions, compassion, control theory 7
Christianity 0

I have tried to make Christians look at the bigger picture, but its hard when they are so inside their square box and not wanting to open their mind to something different

I once told a Jehovahs Witness that I couldn't speak with him because he was a false prophet. He stammered that he had no idea what I was talking about. I asked him if they had predicted the second coming of christ, twice. He tried to talk around the previous predictions but I explained that since they were wrong in their prophesies that made them false prophets.

He stood there for a full minute with a very odd look on his face before he turned and walked away.

That was 5 years ago and they haven't been back.

I don't think I changed his mind, but I sure messed with it.

The problem is faith which I understand as absolute belief without any proof.

Faith is what holds us all back. You cannot ever find the truth if you have faith because, you are convinced without proof that you have already found it.


Believe what you want just don't say that you have faith in anything. You then can change your beliefs as better information becomes available..

I look forward to the day when a person says that they have faith in....., we all ridicule them for relishing in their ignorance. Faith should immediately disqualify any person running for office from having a realistic chance of winning. Today we have the opposite. Politicians pretending to have faith to please the willfully ignorant masses.

Once we stop treating people of faith as praiseworthy and, we recognize the faithful as people suffering from a type of ongoing inebriation, we will put humankind on path to progress and true knowledge. .

reply to post by knightwhosaysnih


Well admiting that your to weak to live with the truth is atleast a good first step...

Instead of callingy yoruself "religious" or "spiritual" just say your weak minded and willfully ignorant. problem solved... no one would bother talking to you then,

What happens when you consider religion and evolution equal concepts?

Which one has more evidence for truth?

Originally posted by M3Vega
Faith is what holds us all back. You cannot ever find the truth if you have faith because, you are convinced without proof that you have already found it.

Love this quote!! Gonna be re-using that one

Disclaimer; Not all christians are delusional.

My favorite delusional christian story comes from a shirttail relative.

We were sitting on the patio having drinks when the doorbell rang. The lady of the house excused herself and was gone for a couple minutes. She returned as red as a beet and ranting about how those damned door knockers had no shame, pushing their religion on others. She went on for a good 10 minutes and made a pretty nice little scene.

A while later I was in the house getting a drink and the same woman was in the kitchen and started asking me questions about the family and basically just catching up. Since I hadn't seen her kids in years she had to take me over to the picture wall and give me the full story on all 6 kids. One of the pictures was a young couple by a river. She was very proud of that one, it was her daughter and son in-law, they were missionairies in Africa.

The irony was lost on her but it almost floored me.

reply to post by AGWskeptic


It's a ME thing with a lot of people. Me me me me me, oh by the way me.

Someone else... pssshhhh

Even when ME and someone else is in the exact same situation.

Weird.

Originally posted by CoherentlyConfused
reply to post by borntowatch

 

There are several ancient species still around today that have been around for millions of years. Crocodiles and alligators have been roaming for 200 million years.

That doesn't mean that all animals that lived millions of years ago are still around today. Are you saying I should be careful as not to run into a Tyrannosaurus in the woods somewhere?

Rawr.

It's not an exact science but it's approximate enough to know that dinosaurs didn't exist 6,000 years ago.

how do we know

Dinosaur fossils are found in sedimentary rock, while isotopes like uranium-238, uranium-235 and potassium-40 -- which, remember, have the required long half-lives of more than 1 million years -- are found in igneous (volcanic) rock. So scientists look for the layers of igneous rock (typically from volcanic ash) that "sandwich" the fossil-bearing layer. These igneous rocks -- the "bread" of the sandwich -- can be dated, leaving a bracketed period of time (in between the slices of bread) in which the sedimentary rocks with the dinosaur remains must have been formed. This allows scientists to affix a rough age range to dinosaur fossils, all thanks to the layers of time stacked upon each other in the earth around us.

Have you got something that is testable, as provable to show they aren't as old as scientists are saying?

I dont have to prove anything, you are relying on science and science has to be repeatable testable and observable or its a faith.
Dont play me for a fool. The onus is on you. Prove they are ancient. Prove it.Show me evidence of the accuracy of the geological time scale.

My question still stands, or you are as religious as me just in denial

Originally posted by Julio

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by Julio

Originally posted by borntowatch

Why do we have so much diversity if we all come from the same amoeba or whatever you believe evolution teaches, why the diversity.
Its a double edged sword.
Whats your answer to that question
Silly argument a child can see through

Because mutations...?

There are 3 rabbits. Two are "regular" while the third has a mutation that gives it stronger hearing. They are being hunted by a wolf. The mutated rabbit hears the wolf first, and gets a head start on running away. It's the only survivor and so it passes on it's strong hearing genes. Continue this process hundreds of thousands of times over hundred of thousands of years and you get diversity.

Another thing to look at are islands. For instance, there are 6 rabbits. Suddenly, massive rainstorm. They are divided by a large river. One side of the river has wolves and the other side has owls or something. The rabbits on the side with owls will develop abilities for avoiding owls, and the rabbits on the wolf side will develop abilities for avoiding wolves using the process I mentioned above. After say 100,000 years, the river dries up, and the rabbits on one side can't mate with the rabbits on the other side because they are now separate species.


The rabbit example isn't the best, but it applies to everything. Just apply it to the first life that existed.

Hey einsteis we can say that about people as well, Duh.
Mutations are not mutually exclusive to evolution. your argument is that of a child

By the way with all this technology at your fingertips and all your little Pleb mates to help can you show me a beneficial mutation....I will even say please. No assumptions I want to see the evidence.

or is that just your faith that dictates that belief, sounds like you are more religious than me.

Easy now, no need to call me a child. Let's keep this thread civil.

And yes, we can say that about people. I just used rabbits as an example because they are more interesting to talk about in my opinion. I don't really understand the point you are trying to get across...Could you possibly clarify for me?

Beneficial mutations are very rare, and the chances of a negative mutation are much higher. That's why the theory of evolution states it takes millions of years to see change. There are a lot of things that affect how a species evolves, and mutations are just a part of it.

A beneficial mutation (for a human) would be not growing in wisdom teeth. This is beneficial because having wisdom teeth in a jaw that's not big enough hurts a lot. Ask anyone who has had them grow in how they felt. That's my evidence.

Another positive mutation would be telekinesis, but that isn't real so it doesn't really count I guess.

I'd recommend reading The Greatest Show on Earth. Richard Dawkins is a bit of a dick to anyone who isn't an atheist, so you have to have tough skin. However, he explains the theory of evolution in a very easy to understand way (by that I mean you don't need to be a scientist to understand all the terms.) I'm about 75% of the way through, and so far it's a pretty easy read.

edit on 6/13/2012 by Julio because: (no reason given)

I didnt call you a child only your argument childish. Wisdom teeth are still a necessity in most of the worlds people, Americans who drink cola and eat processed food have an underdeveloped jaw, hence why wisdom teeth are an issue in western society's. Use your Jaw and those teeth will fit in properly.


Show me a beneficial mutation, telekenisis and adamantium from the x men sadly for your argument are not real mutations.
so again.....Show me a beneficial mutation

Creationists accept micro evolution, change within species...not species changing in to other species. I need evidence to believe that cats turn into elephants or whatever, show me evidence.

Richard Dawkins wont argue evolution because he gets so badly bashed by creationists he is now to scared to debate in public. Of his books I have read they are at best as silly as your argument. Evidence less

Originally posted by HoppedUp

Originally posted by borntowatch

Prove they are old, prove to me the geological time scale is accurate.
Its a silly silly belief.
www.zimbio.com...
Go study some cryptozoology

LOL dude, are you serious? This is like, 9th grade biology and common knowledge right here. Don't even get me started on bacterium/bacteria. I bet Satan is behind those guys too.

edit on 13-6-2012 by HoppedUp because: etymology dilemma: added both spellings for the nit pickers

LOL dude, are you serious? This is GEOLOGY not BIOLOGY, common knowledge seriously.

I mean come on, its a simple question and you talk about birds and bees
prove to me the geological time scale is accurate.

Actually I would be suprised if you knew what the geological time scale was.

Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9
reply to post by Julio

 

I'm currently 0-3 (from what I can remember) in challenging someone to question their beliefs about a particular religion. They hold on so tightly to such dogmatic beliefs, it's difficult to rationalize with them. However, no matter how heated the debates get, at the end of the day, I still have to respect their beliefs.

I have to say though, the craziest thing I've heard my friend say (this was during high school) is that dinosaur fossils were put here by Satan do deceive us.

And you didn't believe him ...

Originally posted by immortalreiku
reply to post by Julio

 

On more than one occassion I have made a christian believe satan was actually the good guy (which is just a set up) and then I go on to explain how all of it is BS. A lot of little details left out of this post but you can imagine everyone of them as a better person because of it. My favorite was my buddies Mom. Christian for 54 years. Took me 4 hours and she threw it all out the window. Beautiful

It sounds like you're lying, or she was a closet atheist.
Actually, explain to the Christian community how you can make them throw out their religion in 4 hours?

The funniest part of your post was, "I have made a christian believe satan was actually the good guy". Please explain this one, please. I want to hear this, for real. For real.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Evolution doesn't teach that everything comes from some amoeba. Why are so quick to disregard the theory, when you haven't even bothered to find this out? Ultimately, diversity rises from imprecise replication of DNA (observed fact), and subsequent selection by nature (fact), repeated over and over (fact). This is the core of the modern theory of evolution. The first point was never part of Darwin's theory, and thus us learned find it cute when laymen call us Darwinists.

edit on 13-6-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

Oops.... evolution teaches we were seeded by aliens or we were dust and water and lightning strikes, how silly of me to forget, #chortle* chortle#
Tell me that is not a religious indoctrination fairy tail.

Facts are they? Well show me the evidence or am I spose to believe you like I am a believer of religious indoctrinations provided by scientists. I dont believe you. Not one bit. Evidence not assumptions.

As for Darwin he didnt know what DNA was so of course he didnt know what he was talking about. thats what makes evolution so stupid, Darwin though we were made up of water.
The truth is DNA needs 1, a sender 2, a code and 3, a receiver. If the DNA message is corrupted (imprecise replication of DNA) between the sender and the receiver then the receiver will not understand the code.
Evolution can not explain that simple sender code receiver relationship. Your argument is futile and scientists still cant explain it.
So if scientists cant explain it how can you. Foolish argument

edit on 13-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

"borntowatch", you are infected with the only known communicable disease known to man.

rhinoceroes gives you the meaning (DEFINITION), you know, the SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION OF EVOLUTION, and your disease ignores this, and you (borntowatch) refers back to the brainwashed lie filled crap you have contracted (the disease).

Your response right here, sums up the whole creationist / evolution debate.

Evolutionist provides the scientific definition of evolution.

Creationist ignores it, says his religious lie filled "definition" is correct.

Let's see if this communicable disease can be fixed. It's not that hard.

Start with Evidence of common descent

Than brush up on your Logic

Read about the Urey experiment and recent studies.

Let's see if you even have the balls to dare read something your preacher doesn't know about? Are you afraid? Lazy? Or just so brainwashed you think you will go to hell for reading facts?