Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner?

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

...insert Metallica's 'Fight Fire with Fire' video here

Sounds more like the Babylonian "Ethic of Reciprocity" found in the Code of Hammurabi

"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."

circa 1780 BCE, the very first recorded instance of the original "Golden Rule."

I find it odd that some will accept Babylonian law of ethics and creationism as fact while many from this same group are anti-Christianity... there's irony in there somewhere it's just too early for me to waste a brain cell on finding it.

anti-Christianity is just another way and quite possibly the oldest way to be anti-Western... the funny ironic thing about that is well Christianity actually works... its given rise to western civilization as we know it. If the West weren't around to spread its philosophy I am sure there are a hundred other systems which are not so 'Just' or represent freedom such as the west's point of view on this particular philosophy.

I have a good idea for a topic... "if Christendom never were, where would we be now"

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

...insert Metallica's 'Fight Fire with Fire' video here

Sounds more like the Babylonian "Ethic of Reciprocity" found in the Code of Hammurabi

"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."

circa 1780 BCE, the very first recorded instance of the original "Golden Rule."

I find it odd that some will accept Babylonian law of ethics and creationism as fact while many from this same group are anti-Christianity... there's irony in there somewhere it's just too early for me to waste a brain cell on finding it.

I don't think it's anti-Christianity as much as it's a push for Christianity to become honest with itself.
It's a pipe dream to be sure, but still.... a nice dream.

anti-Christianity is just another way and quite possibly the oldest way to be anti-Western... the funny ironic thing about that is well Christianity actually works... its given rise to western civilization as we know it. If the West weren't around to spread its philosophy I am sure there are a hundred other systems which are not so 'Just' or represent freedom such as the west's point of view on this particular philosophy.

Anti-Christianity isn't anti-western at all. If anything, Christianity has slowed progress in the west, and has torn apart countless cultures in the process.

I have a good idea for a topic... "if Christendom never were, where would we be now"

Sounds like a good topic for discussion. We could start with there being no dark ages, the crusades wouldn't have happened, the holocaust, the Inquisition, the burning times, all fueled by religious hate and ignorance, and even the lag in the fields of science and medicine were due to Christianity's oppression of knowledge.

Some might argue that without the Christian conquests that there would've been no "discovery" of the new world, though that argument is mired in pride, and has been debunked on numerous occassions. There's plenty of evidence that proves that the Americas were being frequented by the Chinese, Egyptians, the Irish, Norse Vikings, and more long before the alleged discovery. The Christians were just the first to "settle."

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
I don't think it's anti-Christianity as much as it's a push for Christianity to become honest with itself.
It's a pipe dream to be sure, but still.... a nice dream.

I don't have any problems with the Christians though so it's not an issue for me.

Anti-Christianity isn't anti-western at all.

exactly! Christianity is Westerndom... very observant of you.

If anything, Christianity has slowed progress in the west, and has torn apart countless cultures in the process.

irrelevant...

Sounds like a good topic for discussion. We could start with there being no dark ages, the crusades wouldn't have happened, the holocaust, the Inquisition, the burning times, all fueled by religious hate and ignorance, and even the lag in the fields of science and medicine were due to Christianity's oppression of knowledge.

oh lets get our facts straight shall we... how many times have the Ottomans sacked western civilization via conquest? Ptolemy II, who became the ruler of Egypt burned down the library of Alexandria... is Egypt a Christian nation?

Some might argue that without the Christian conquests that there would've been no "discovery" of the new world, though that argument is mired in pride, and has been debunked on numerous occassions. There's plenty of evidence that proves that the Americas were being frequented by the Chinese, Egyptians, the Irish, Norse Vikings, and more long before the alleged discovery. The Christians were just the first to "settle."

and here we are leading up to some type of jealous anti American kind of statement... told ya's

see and America is the United States... we have every right and deserve the title of Americans, that's why Canada is Canada and Mexico is Mexico as is el Salvador, Brazil, ect ect.

tyvm...

----------

PS; Ptolemy II - 283 BCE to 246 BCE (BCE stands for Before Christ Existed)

and oh yeah the "Dark Ages" boohoo we'd still be in them if it wasn't for the Christian Martyrs... and quite possibly be like a lot of Islamic peoples on the planet... speaking a language that has not been updated since its inception and having our hands cut off for infractions such as being hungry.

sounds like fun...

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

exactly! Christianity is Westerndom... very observant of you.

Yes but a west that wasn't built up directly by Christianity.

irrelevant...

I find it very relevant... and telling.

oh lets get our facts straight shall we... how many times have the Ottomans sacked western civilization via conquest? Ptolemy II, who became the ruler of Egypt burned down the library of Alexandria... is Egypt a Christian nation?

I'm not saying there weren't wars or great loses of history before the Christians came along, however, I am saying that there has never been a stronger push to demonize knowledge since Christendom.

see and America is the United States... we have every right and deserve the title of Americans, that's why Canada is Canada and Mexico is Mexico as is el Salvador, Brazil, ect ect.

tyvm...

Wrong. North America includes 23 countries and dozens of possessions and territories. It contains all Caribbean and Central America countries, Canada, Mexico, the United States of America, as well as Greenland.

We're called "Americans" because, as separate states, we're united in part of North America, and calling ourselves Statezers sounds stupid.

reply to post by Akragon




Hey Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
I believe Hell is a fabrication of the church, not anything actually taught by Jesus himself...

I've done my "homework" my friend, and all the answers are not in the bible... it says plenty of things that should be disregarded... hell is one of them. Its nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion...

I’m curious, what are your thoughts, on the verse below…

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you see this as a fabricated verse…?


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hey Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
I believe Hell is a fabrication of the church, not anything actually taught by Jesus himself...

I've done my "homework" my friend, and all the answers are not in the bible... it says plenty of things that should be disregarded... hell is one of them. Its nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion...

I’m curious, what are your thoughts, on the verse below…

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you see this as a fabricated verse…?


- JC

This is an interesting subject actually....

I do believe Hell in Christian terminology is fabricated... Though i also do consider Jesus to be "the truth" as he said of himself... so we're left with a problem because he must be refering to something...

Gehenna was a physical place outside of Jerusalam... Apparently similar to a garbage dump, but also where they disposed of bodies... Where they "apparently" used sulfer to destroy the matter within... This is obviously where the idea of "eternal burning" came from... so the story goes, the fires in Gehenna burned day and night...

Hell is also mentioned many times within the bible... so again considering there are so many references within said book, there is likely some reality to it.

I believe there are two possiblities... The christian "hell" is not one of them... that is a fabricated idea used to scare people into conversion (imho)

1. Hell is something you create in this world through your deeds within this life... This is a reality... I work with the elderly, and it has caused me to question the idea of "hell" on earth... i'll refer you to my thread on the subject....

Do you create your own Hell?

2. For the second possiblity we must refer to the story of Lazarus... He was dead, yet somehow still conscious, still aware of his surroundings... Now of course the story John gives is quite different then the story given by Luke... And of course Luke being a follower of Paul, is already questionable...

Luke gives his account and basically backs up the fear based preaching Christians tend to dwell on... From this story the feeling i get is that Hell is what happens when the spirit within has not realized it is seperate from the physical body, and thus at the point of death the soul or spirit is trapped within the dead physical body for a time...

I would assume the time line is 3 days just by following other trends within the stories of the bible...

And i'll also refer you this line of thinking with my thread on that subject as well...

Is your body a trap?

this idea can be viewed from various different perspectives... Consider back when Gehenna was this physical "garbage dump" outside of Jerusalam... a person dies, yet has not realized his spirit exists... He/she is trapped in their physical body... And eventually tossed into Gehenna for disposal... where as i've stated, they used sulfer to destroy the physical matter within... eventually this body with said spirit trapped within starts to burn... so again we come back to this idea of eternal burning within the depths of "hell"

A spirit trapped within his body, is thrown into hell, where the fires never cease... and eventually consume all physical matter within.... This idea parallels many of the stories about "hell" within the bible...

So im sure there must be some reality to Hell, but i don't believe Christians have a clue as to what exactly that reality is.... Christ is very Vague about the subject... He gives no details about it other then "it exists" in some way...

Christian ideas on the matter are purely fear based conversion tactics....

Originally posted by NewerBeing
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

What Christians are so blind to see is that we already living in hell. Christians play into the devils game by preaching their fairy tale to the masses.

+ 1

With less and less effect as we make our children bright enough to recognize that any religion based on human sacrifice and a God who has his own son needlessly murdered is quite immoral.
They also recognize B S when they hear it.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Praetorius
[

I see you talking about Jesus on here quite a lot, but as you appear to disagree with pretty much 95% of the historically-accepted sources of him I know about, I'm not surprised that you take such issue with the concept of 'hell'.

Yes, I agree, it is taken incorrectly out of the text and turned into something it's not, but Jesus himself spoke on hell as well as the results of rejection of his message and ungodly living, going so far as to say we should only fear God who can destroy both body *and soul* in hell, amongst quite a few other things.

The fact is that hell is an original christian teaching, regardless if it might not actually be the eternal torment some have sadly made it out to be (according to Christ and the texts themselves, the wages of sin are death/perishing, not unending life in flaming agony).

Be well.

edit on 5/15/2012 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)

What a game for your God to play!
Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering or death.
Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.
And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering or death and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.
Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Jesus taught more about Hell than anyone in the Bible, and about 3 times more than He taught about Heaven.

Yet the O T, the base of Christianity never speaks of such an immoral construct that Christianity later demanded out of their deep hate for all others.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

You realize Jesus uses more terms than "Hell" to describe the same place right? Allegorical? No, the gospel isn't "there is no Hell". The gospel is He died so you don't have to go there if you so choose.

edit on 15-5-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Yum, yum. Good old human sacrifice. Another of Christianity's immoral doctrines.

Oh wait, that is not what scriptures say but then, you do not believe scriptures.

www.youtube.com...

If the bible is true, as you seem to think it is even though it is all myth, then you might recall that it says that your God also gave Satan the power to deceiver the whole world.

So what should you do?

Go by moral standards, right?

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Is hell good?

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...


If you are going to go by morality, then question your morality.

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice. As scriptures urge when they are not preaching death for miniscule sins.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.


To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

You go ahead though and line up for heaven in that line on the right but do not be surprised when you join Kenny in hell. That is the place for those who will try to profit from God having his son needlessly murdered

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hell isn't a logical choice for a loving merciful creator...

God is love correct, but He is not only love. You're forgetting His other attributes.

So are you.
Let me remind you.

Here is a good heart speaking of God's love.

If it does not do something to yours, then you are not human or good.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by FugitiveSoul

 

Since you knew that, perhaps "Golden Rule" was a poor choice of terms then?

No, it was perfectly chosen, because "Ethic of Reciprocity" is another term for Golden Rule, and
"an eye for an eye..." is the first recorded instance of this form of moral ethics.

edit on 15-5-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

And still universal but most think it is the second moral rule as I do.

blog.ted.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Pistis Sophia

A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.

According to Pistis Sophia, some souls do experience hell as a shadowy place of torture where they go after death. But after passing through this hell, the souls return for further experiences on earth. Only a few extremely wicked souls are not allowed to reincarnate. These are cast into "outer darkness" until the time when they are destined to be "destroyed and dissolved"

The above post, taken from your other thread “Do you create your own Hell”, definitely agrees with Jesus, in regards to souls being destroyed. Which incidentally, is what I believe Hell is, and not an eternal place, where people are tortured forever; but I think destruction of the soul, only comes towards the end, when all other avenues, by God, have been exhausted.

People of course may well ask, the question, “surely if God is all-powerful, then can’t He find a way to save them”…and the answer is, is that it is down to the individuals choice, because God won’t ever infringe on a persons free will. And, God has already, and is in the process of, trying to save us.


I don’t know if you’ve read the “Secret book of John”, which is considered heretical by the RCC church; In it, John talks about Heaven, Hell and Reincarnation! Which is a difficult bunch of theological ideas, for most Christians to accept, or even to try and get their heads around.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not saying there isn’t a final judgment, but I have this idea that maybe the final judgment (as described in Revelations) comes at the end of all things, and possibly after many incarnations of a person’s soul. I say this because there appears to be a lot of evidence, of people having been reincarnated, and having memories of past lives etc…

The way I look at all this is; by trying to imagine a Heavenly society, where people love each other, and treat each other with respect and kindness etc. And then imagine yourself opening up the gates, to allow all the thief’s, rapists and murders into that society. Would you do it? Of course most people would probably answer no… and I think God has the same problem/dilemma. God has to do what is right, for the greater good, and for those who have remained righteous.

In fact, I believe God is actually the one who is trying to save us, from ourselves, rather than him being seen as the bad guy in all this. In other words, if we continue to do evil, then God cutting us off, is our own fault IMO.

Just my 2 cents…


- JC

Originally posted by NewerBeing
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

What Christians are so blind to see is that we already living in hell. Christians play into the devils game by preaching their fairy tale to the masses.

Pretty much my own take on the matter also. I work in Retail Sales, you? Anyway, the main purpose of Christianity, in my humble opinion, is to preach anything, tell anything, and do anything to keep Humanity from Ascending out of this prison we all live in, and keep us here, on a dying world. Trapped in the never ending cycle of reincarnation, over and over again.

Originally posted by Joecroft

"infringe on a persons free will."

I near choked on this idiocy.

Did God not infringe on the free will to live of all those he murders in scriptures.
Including the innocent children and babies.

What about Pharaoh when God hardened his heart?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Greatest I am

"infringe on a persons free will."

I near choked on this idiocy.

Did God not infringe on the free will to live of all those he murders in scriptures.
Including the innocent children and babies.

I think you may have me confused with someone else…


I don’t believe those atrocities in the OT, came from the one true God that I believe in.


And I don’t exactly classify myself as a Christian either partly because of the above, but mainly because I have let go of quite a number of, so called Christian, doctrines and theologies/beliefs, most of which, I believe came only from men.


When I said “God doesn’t infringe on a persons free will”, I meant that he wont force people to follow love and light etc, because he hasn’t created us like robots. However, he does try to guide us into doing what is right, which is why I believe it is down to the individual to follow the right path. And I believe this is done, through following and getting to know God, through Jesus.


- JC

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

the Americas are the Americas... North America is North America as South America is South America.

American/s is reserved for the residents of the United States surely... how else would the haters be able to distinguish?

We residents of the United States gladly accept the title of Americans.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

"we're all a part of Gods great big family... and the truth, you know love is all we need"

we are the world...

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Originally posted by Greatest I am

"infringe on a persons free will."

I near choked on this idiocy.

Did God not infringe on the free will to live of all those he murders in scriptures.
Including the innocent children and babies.

I think you may have me confused with someone else…


I don’t believe those atrocities in the OT, came from the one true God that I believe in.


And I don’t exactly classify myself as a Christian either partly because of the above, but mainly because I have let go of quite a number of, so called Christian, doctrines and theologies/beliefs, most of which, I believe came only from men.


When I said “God doesn’t infringe on a persons free will”, I meant that he wont force people to follow love and light etc, because he hasn’t created us like robots. However, he does try to guide us into doing what is right, which is why I believe it is down to the individual to follow the right path. And I believe this is done, through following and getting to know God, through Jesus.


- JC

So then you believe that human sacrifice and a God that can be bribed is somehow moral?

Regards
DL