Christian Double Talk on Trinity is the root of their being Dead in Christ

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Every argument one has presented has been based on private eisegesis and that apart from full context of scripture. Also the appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy) plays a large role in the allegation of murder. No sound argument with valid premises has been presented.

Again that is your opinion... every arguement you're presented trying to disprove the fact that the OT God commands such attrocities comes from a brainwashed christian perspective....

Perhaps we could have avoided all this if the concession of "this is just my opinion" was assigned to the allegations of rape and murder and trinity meaning we worship someone other than the Father as Father because like I said, (and in my professional opinion as being a degreed psychologist) your arguments are just opinions and you shouldn't be passing them off as truth if they aren't such.

The "Trinity" doesn't mean we worship anyone but God as Father. There is no commandment for rape. And "murder" is a misnomer for what is actually happening.

SO you should thank God there are so many different "Christian" faiths... according to what i've read the trinity makes God, the son, and the spirit... Equal. And according to Jesus... that is wrong.

What have you read in scripture that would lead you to such a notion?

Here are two scriptures about Jesus being God's equal or rather, "one with God in essence:"
1) "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:5-6

2)"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21

I thought you understood the double-talk. Jesus is not God the Father but is God our Father's only begotten Son whereby whom we are saved.

One's arguments have been presented according to one's own words trying to be passed as the Word of God according to scripture therefore this truly has come down to "your words" vs "God's Word."

No...

This is about what it says in the "bible" VS. What Jesus said...

How many times do i have to say that?

Say it all you want but until you make a real allegation with solid, valid premises according to the Word and not according to your own personal eisegesis, you stand in contempt.

Incorrect... This verse has NOTHING to do with the trinity with that part removed...

Watch...

And without....

5:7 "For there are three that bear record... the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Don't let yourself be fooled by your religion...

Akra, I told you that the trinity is an understanding that we get from scripture. We conceive of there being three because there are three. Iin essence they are one like you say but in entity they are not. This is the understanding I too have from reading scripture.

continued...

Originally posted by Akragon

The doctrine of "we believe so we can do what we want" is incorrect. What is also incorrect is that Paul teaches such a thing. If you care to know why see Paul in Romans 6 for clarification of his stance and doctrine on the matter.

Sure.. i'll play... Heres the first two verses of Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You are dead to sin... Meaning "Christians don't sin"?

OR

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Either Christians do not sin... or no matter what they do... they are blameless...

Both ideas are nonsence... Forgive my cherry picking

Romans 6:15-16 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

What we have is real heart service versus lip service. God will be the judge. And the point of the matter here is that Paul does not condone "doing just whatever we want" like you falsely claim.

Context, akra, context.

Spiritually speaking, the consequences of sin is separation from our Father but Jesus paid that penalty and now by grace through faith he is our redeemer.

Grace is a white wash... a cop out... Jesus said nothing of the sort...

Grace is completly Paulian thought... Jesus did not teach the doctrine of "Grace"...

The doctrine of righteousness through faith is grace and was taught by Jesus. I gave you the verses and none of them were about salvation through any work but the completed work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus consistently tells us to believe in him for salvation.

Listen to Jesus from Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

You're kidding right?

Im sorry but if you start claiming that Jesus spoke in Romans im going to have to ignore you.... That is utter foolishnss....

You ignore scripture anyways, why not ignore me too

Hear Jesus in Luke 10:16, "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

If you have something against Paul then fine but the Message and its Inspirer speaks for itself. You should stop cherry-picking and read it all without bias if you can.

There is much scripture on this very topic but know that no servant can serve two masters. Know that through Jesus Christ we are adopted as His children

More christian propaganda.... We are ALL Gods children... Know ye not the Psalms

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Don't you mean, "I [David] have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." And why? Because of wickedness. And to whom was David speaking? Israel.

Come on, akra.

Am I the "monster" who angers you so with his "atrocities"? Is it my face you long to spit in out of malice? Brother, your war is not with me but with the Father

NO... My issue was never with you..

Why force an issue with a God you don't believe in?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

I accept Jesus as the way, truth and life so that I may come before the Father in boldness according to grace, love, and mercy.

This looks like a misinterpretation of Hebrews 4:16, where someone has taken it out of context and are making out that it is saying something else.
It is making an analogy to back in the OT the Israelites would come to the High Priest, who had come before God.
We can approach Jesus with confidence because he had come before God.
You should get away from that cult teaching you lies.

I knew you were gonna come with some bull

My faith is an amalgamation of all I've read in scripture. John 14:6 + Hebrews 4:16 = my personal hope to stand before our Father in boldness of grace, and mercy, and love.

get it?

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Perhaps we could have avoided all this if the concession of "this is just my opinion" was assigned to the allegations of rape and murder and trinity meaning we worship someone other than the Father as Father because like I said, (and in my professional opinion as being a degreed psychologist) your arguments are just opinions and you shouldn't be passing them off as truth if they aren't such.

So you believe your education gives your "opinion" more weight then mine?

I have regular discussions with a former "minister" who has her masters in divinity, and a few other degrees. Including a batchlor in Nursing, and she agrees with every point i've made.

truth... according to you is found within Gods word. And within what you call "Gods word"... Said omnipotent being has caused/commited numerous attrocities thoughout the timeline of the bible. Thus it is true that this God of the OT can not be the same God as the one Jesus spoke of...

Either God had a change of heart when Jesus came on the scene... or the OT God is NOT the same God.

SO... is God unchanging like it says in your book? I believe he is... And OT God is not the same God...

Here are two scriptures about Jesus being God's equal or rather, "one with God in essence:"

Clearly this is going to be a long reply... buckle up...

Being one with God does not mean equality... Jesus never once claims he is "equal" with God... Same as he never claimed to be God... Others did... He did not...

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:5-6

This verse is the single best reason not to listen to Paul...

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Paul did not know Jesus... And with that statement Paul is a Liar... as he always was. Saul...

I thought you understood the double-talk. Jesus is not God the Father but is God our Father's only begotten Son whereby whom we are saved.

I don't understand Most Christian thought... this is why i question.

Jesus didn't claim to be God anything... Gods son... YES!

NOT God the son... or the Gods word made flesh for that matter... though at least that teaching falls in line with what he said... but not the way your average "christian" thinks though... They seem to believe this equates him with God... and that is nothing more then an assumption. Jesus explains this... Here... John 5: 30 - 47

He does the will of God... not his own.

you stand in contempt.

And if this were medieval times you'd already have me on the stake....

Please....

Akra, I told you that the trinity is an understanding that we get from scripture.

And i told you already... the trinity is not biblical... it was added to your religion 300+ years after the fact... It was not taught by any of the appostles, or Jesus for that matter...

Deny this verse... and you deny your saviour... who is the SON of God. NOT God in the flesh...

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

You ignore scripture anyways, why not ignore me too

I do not ignore scripture... i simply have no use for most of what is found within the bible...

I would hope since you're putting up such a fight... that you would know where his words are located... Romans is not one of those places... This creates a serious problem with me... simply because if you don't know the basics how can anyone take you seriously in these discussions?

If you have something against Paul then fine but the Message and its Inspirer speaks for itself.

Correction...

Paul speaks for himself... And no one else...

You should stop cherry-picking and read it all without bias if you can.

Perhaps you might take your own advice?

Don't you mean, "I [David] have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." And why? Because of wickedness. And to whom was David speaking? Israel.

Come on, akra.

Come on what...

Are they any different then the rest of us?

Perhaps Gods children are only born in israel?

Or... Maybe they were only born in that specific time?

Do you believe there is a difference between a white man and a black man? OR someone born in Israel as opposed to maybe... the states?

Wake up bro... All life is of God... we are children of God... Animal life are creatures of God... the planets and the stars are creations of God


Perhaps your God has limits... Mine does not....

The "devil" you speak of in those verses represents materialism... That is why it says you can not serve two masters...

You either love The spirit or you love the material world...

You either serve the spirit (which is all man kind) or the material world... meaning selfishness...

The issue that the organized church and the typical Christian doesn't know the Jesus issues continues. Not only do they get wrong the issues of the embellishment of the Tree Nailings, they fail to take note of many differences in the accounts.

One can easily show that Jesus existed from the writings of Pilate and Caesar, and even get a good idea of what he looked like with blonde hair and grey eyes:

www.rhnegativeregistry.com...

A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.

Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.

I don't think the author for this piece gets everything right but the Scandinavian source for Jesus, as that happened in latter times. The Annunaki methods produced light haired blonde people, many going on to Egypt.
Jesus appears to be decendants of these Sumer peoples with blonde hair and blue/grey eyes.

The author does get it correct that the Essene sect of Judaism was very different, yet spoke the Aramaic Landuage left over from Babylon's area. The Jesus plan was to change from the old ways into the newer ways for which he was the Prophet. Even the god of Jesus is different than most Christians tell.

The issue is these old Annunaki produced good and evil directions. And sorting those out appears to be something the organized church does not want folks to learn.

Jesus (Yashua’s) Nazarene tribes worshiped a DIFFERENT GOD in separate temples, from the Hebrew tribes of Northern and the Judah Jewish tribes in Southern Israel. THE NAZARENES ALSO HAD THEIR OWN SEPARATE SCRIPTURES. Jesus Yashua never called his God Yahweh Jehovah; in fact he clearly referred to the gods of the Hebrews and Israelites as Satanic entities and knick named them snakes and scorpions. Jesus (Yashua) referred to our GOD as FATHER and instructed his followers to do the same.

The beliefs and customs of Jesus Yashua's Nazarene tribes were very different from what we have been taught in our Orthodox Jewish and Roman Catholic Christian Church’s. For an example, did you know that Jesus (Yashua's) Nazarene tribes believed that human and animal souls came from the same basic soul pool as we did and as such animals were precious. Nazarenes did not kill and eat animals and it was forbidden to sacrifice them like the Hebrews and Jews did to appease their evil gods.

We have to remember here that several different tribes were considered to be Jewish during the time of Jesus (Yashua’s) ministry. All of them had similar, yet at the same time, very different beliefs. Jesus (Yashua) came to minister and reform all of them.

The northern Hebrew tribes worshipped the gods known to us as the Nordic Aryan Alien “Fallen Watchers” The Southern Jews of Judah worshipped Ildabaoth the Demiurge aka Yahweh Jehovah.

The Pharisee, Sadducee, Scribal, Talmud, and Torah Jews led these tribes with hidden doctrines and mystical teachings. Once you begin to read the books in the Nag Hammadi Library that apply to the Nazarene tribal beliefs, you will see that the teachings of Jesus (Yashua) and the Nazarenes were very different from what we have been schooled to believe by our religious leaders.


WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT JESUS (YASHUA) CAME TO REFORM THESE SATANIC GROUPS, NOT TO JOIN THEM. KEEP THIS IIN MIND as you read the Nazarene, Essene and Gnostic sites on line. Many of them incorporate SATANIC PAGAN doctrines. Some of them are endorsing the satanic bloodline versions of the HOLY GRAIL facts.

The Scandinavia theme was one that Hitler liked from the Arian theme of more intelligent peoples, and the O Neg blood types tend to support that theme.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

I knew you were gonna come with some bull

Bull, as in reading things in context, instead of taking a part of a verse and combining it with a part of another verse from a different writer, and making a fake verse that says something not supported by a straight reading of the Bible?

My faith is an amalgamation of all I've read in scripture. John 14:6 + Hebrews 4:16 = my personal hope to stand before our Father in boldness of grace, and mercy, and love.

Oh, you mean this verse?

From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

John 14:6 (last part)
Sounds like we are stuck with "ordinary", old, Jesus.
Maybe you imagine yourself as an archangel, but don't hold your breath.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I absolutely agree with you that our Father's grace through Jesus Christ is for all who would seek Him with their whole heart and although we all have that opportunity right now, many could care less to be one of His children.

Thanks, it good to know that people see things that way, and don’t buy into this predestination theology.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
The point here is that not all are His children so what we have here between you and I is a failure to agree upon what it means to be a "Child of God."

Ok, hold that thought see (point A) below

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Being creation no more makes me a child of God than it makes a horse a child of God. The Holy Spirit is the difference and it is the difference between those who don't know Jesus and those who are Children of God.

Other than animals not being like us, I actually agree with this…but see (point A) below…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Let us not forget that the Pharisees accused the Spirit in Jesus of casting out devils in the name of the devil. Remember Luke 12:10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him."

Of a truth, not all are the sons of God in Spirit and truth.

Hold that thought…I actually agree with this as well, but see (point A) below…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Although God knows everything, it didn't stop Him from offering grace to us all. It didn't stop Him from sending a call to each of our hearts but I had to affirm/accept that call before I could honestly say I am adopted as a child of our Father.

Now in the context of how your using the term Child of God, do you think this means that God has the right, or that he would command others to kill those, who weren’t yet children of God?

Now please think about this very carefully, and remember we were all once, non-believers in God, at one point in our lives; so does that mean we all deserved to die…or do you think that God stays true to his word, and at least gives others the chance to become righteous, before they die. In other, words, by not interfering with a persons free will, and life on this Earth, especially by commanding others to kill them?

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
The problem with akragon's proposal is that he equates the "children of God" with all of humankind which is not scriptural and is what you and I have been discussing. Akra also disqualifies God's judgment as being righteous. He doesn't discern between being under the law as was in the OT and being under Grace. Akra does not accept the doctrine of Grace and that is pretty much where akra and I now stand.

Well, here’s how I see it…I qualify God as righteous, because he didn’t command others to kill for him. We are under grace now but even in OT times, men were being declared righteous and unrighteous by God all the time. But God still gave many unrighteous men, time to change, and find him, without commanding anyone, to kill them ,for him, before they got to that point. And like I said in my last post, God never changes, so his judgments have to remain just and consistent.

Originally posted by Joecroft
You were stating that “his children” being everybody, was incorrect, because they were wicked, and weren’t his sheep etc and in that context you were also condoning this idea, that God killing them, was somehow fine. Please correct me if I’m wrong here….

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
You inferred that I essentially said God doesn’t care about a few people, who he considers aren’t his children. For arguments sake, putting words in peoples mouths works just fine but I never said such a thing nor do I believe such a thing. Not everybody is going to accept Christ or our Father and that means not everyone is His child. For the latter part, God's judgment is fine.

But on one hand you say I’m putting words into your mouth, and on the other, your saying Gods judgment was fine? So which is it?

Let your yes, be yes and your no, be no…by “God's judgment is fine”, do you see God commanding people to kill non-beliers, as somehow just and righteous?

Continued...

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Continued…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
The Creator has the authority to judge and has every right to take back what he has given. The accusation by akra was murder. I suggested that "the shedding of innocent blood" is not upon God's hands.

Well, in a way, it is on Gods hands, especially if you believe that God commanded those evil things. Which I don’t btw…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I also suggested that "taking what doesn't belong to you in the first place" is not an accusation we can bring against God. I stand by my word, I believe God to be just and righteous. I feared Him first but perfect love has cast out all the fear.

Yes, but even in OT times God allowed others time to become righteous, but by believing that God commanded others to kill unbelievers, your essentially saying, that God breaks his own laws, and his own judgment plan.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Again I say, we all have the opportunity to accept grace right now but this doesn't mean that all have or will. I can hope beyond hope that all would but only those who hear his voice and answer the call are His children.

(Point A) Now this is now kind of irrelevant, in regards to the questions I’m asking you above, because regardless of whether you see believers as a “Children of God” and unbelievers as not being “Children of God” (which I don’t btw) your still holding to this idea, that God was righteous in commanding others to kill un-believers, which still, IMO go’s against Gods judgment plan for all, which was really the crucial point, I was trying to raise, in my first reply to you.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Unbelievers are not the children of God depending on what "God" you are refering to, there are two one is the ruler of this Earth and the other is the Creator. Yes they may be his creation but they are not his children, there is a huge difference that Yeshua set down.

Originally posted by Akragon

So you believe your education gives your "opinion" more weight then mine?

Nope. I'm merely stating that everything is not just opinion. Baseless arguments built on malformed premises and logical fallacies are evident apart from opinion but certainly I have the credentials and education to identify such things and of a truth, your arguments are full of both. Take it for what it's worth but I'm as open-minded as the next guy and you have yet to shake my faith according to what it is your trying to pass as truth.

I have regular discussions with a former "minister" who has her masters in divinity, and a few other degrees. Including a batchlor in Nursing, and she agrees with every point i've made.

A "former" minister? I don't know how that's supposed to make your argument legitimate. Nevertheless, consensus doesn't make truth. There are many who would agree with your points. Many more will not. I don't because of my education in psychology as well as my education in reading the bible for myself. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

truth... according to you is found within Gods word. And within what you call "Gods word"... Said omnipotent being has caused/commited numerous attrocities thoughout the timeline of the bible. Thus it is true that this God of the OT can not be the same God as the one Jesus spoke of...

False. Your argument is based on the subjective opinion that atrocities have been committed denying the very God this argument is against His right as Supreme Authority, Creator, and owner of all including life and death.

SO... is God unchanging like it says in your book? I believe he is... And OT God is not the same God...

Did the OT God not have mercy on whom He would have mercy; and judgment upon whom He would have judgment?

Our Father is yet the same and is offering grace to all whom would receive grace but soon enough the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way and then comes His righteous wrath upon whom He will have vengeance.

God is very much still our Father and is of whom Jesus spoke else Jesus would have articulated to us another.

To present a valid argument against God one has to allow Him His authority otherwise logic and reason are out the window and all that's left is emotional rant against one who by definition is of no power nor entitled to authority and as such is therefore not God.

Being one with God does not mean equality... Jesus never once claims he is "equal" with God... Same as he never claimed to be God... Others did... He did not...

According to Jesus he forgives men of their sins.
According to the Pharisees this means Jesus has made himself equal with God bc only God has power to forgive sins.
Jesus gave his followers power to forgive sins.
His followers taught that Jesus didn't find it robbery to be equal with God (however that might be).

The point here is the baseless claim that Jesus doesn't teach equality on a certain level with God and I just showed you where the understanding is in scripture. Take it for what it's worth, just don't claim Jesus never said or lived out equality in spirit with our Father because he very much did. Otherwise, sin would still be holding him in the grave. Be understanding, my friend.

I don't understand Most Christian thought... this is why i question.

Jesus didn't claim to be God anything... Gods son... YES!

If you want to question then question with an open mind. If you want to make baseless assertions according to opinions and pass them off as truth then you certainly can do that as well but I don't believe Jesus has made himself the Father and I don't worship Jesus as the Father so perhaps you should be discussing this with someone else who does worship Jesus as Father.

you stand in contempt.

And if this were medieval times you'd already have me on the stake....

Please....

Hardly. I'm a pacifist according to my faith. You must be thinking about the Catholics or the warmongering republican Christians. You should take it up with one of them.

And i told you already... the trinity is not biblical... it was added to your religion 300+ years after the fact... It was not taught by any of the appostles, or Jesus for that matter...

as long as you think that Christians who believe in the trinity worship Jesus as Father then you will always be misunderstood on the matter. "Trinity" is a conceptualization we get from understanding how our Father has manifest Himself to us....As Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit our Comforter. Im sorry if you feel like you need to see the word "trinity" in order to conceive of the three but there is much in scripture about our Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. Take it or leave, but it's there.......and yes, our Father is the One Father. And Jesus is His One Son. And by Jesus we now have access to His One Holy Spirit.

If you respect Jesus then you should heed Jesus when he commands us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to place no other God's before Him. Spitting in the monsters face isn't going to help you at all in this life or the next. For your own emotional well-being in this life I propose finding some semblance of peace with our and Jesus Father.

Again, take it or leave it. I'm only a seed planter.

You ignore scripture anyways, why not ignore me too

I do not ignore scripture... i simply have no use for most of what is found within the bible...

I would hope since you're putting up such a fight... that you would know where his words are located... Romans is not one of those places... This creates a serious problem with me... simply because if you don't know the basics how can anyone take you seriously in these discussions?

How profound! You don't ignore scripture......unless you have no use for it?

Good grief. Judge yourself by your own words much?

If you have something against Paul then fine but the Message and its Inspirer speaks for itself.

Correction...

Paul speaks for himself... And no one else...

Disagree. Like I say, the message speaks for itself. Perhaps you can show me where Paul errs in teaching according to the Holy Spirit?

You should stop cherry-picking and read it all without bias if you can.

Perhaps you might take your own advice?

I'm not the one who admittedly cherry picks while disregarding scripture he has no use for according to his own understanding.

Mercy lol.

Come on what...

Are they any different then the rest of us?

Your argument was that God proclaims all are His children using a verse quoted of David.

That's what.

Perhaps Gods children are only born in israel?

Perhaps Israel was a chosen people out of all the godless nations ordained to continue His name and legacy until the time of Grace and of the gentiles?

Do you believe there is a difference between a white man and a black man? OR someone born in Israel as opposed to maybe... the states?

Since Jesus, we are all one in Christ. Having or not having the Holy Spirit is the separator.

Wake up bro... All life is of God... we are children of God... Animal life are creatures of God... the planets and the stars are creations of God

Like I said, being creation no more makes a donkey a child of God than being a creature of God makes you or me a child of God. Being a child of God is determined in possessing the Holy Spirit.

Don't believe me, then take your own word for it. Stop thinking that you're going to heaven according to your good works and accept the fact that you can't do, and be however you want regardless of the will of our Father.

Perhaps your God has limits... Mine does not....

Have you not defined your God as being limited to what you find usable and not usable?

The "devil" you speak of in those verses represents materialism... That is why it says you can not serve two masters...

It also represents the prince and the power of this air, the spirit of anti-christ which is already in this world seeking whom it may devour, the spirit of materialism, the spirit of this world...etc etc etc

Question is are you really serving a god who you are creating according to what you want him to be and not according to who he is independent of us?

You either serve the spirit (which is all man kind) or the material world... meaning selfishness...

Sadly enough, not all allow themselves to be ruled by the Holy Spirit.

Question is, how is it not selfish to refuse God authority in so much that we cherry-pick what we want and refuse what we don't understand thereby transforming God's existence and authority into being subject to us and our desires as opposed to granting our Father due benevolence as independent and not subject to us?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

I knew you were gonna come with some bull

Bull, as in reading things in context, instead of taking a part of a verse and combining it with a part of another verse from a different writer, and making a fake verse that says something not supported by a straight reading of the Bible?

I meant coming to the table without a lick of understanding.


If you don't think scripture supports us standing before the Father, hoping in his grace and love and mercy according to Christ then don't, but I know what I've read and wherein my hope lies. ("lie" - placement)

I hope to stand before Him in the boldness of His promises; believing, nothing wavering.

If it's that big a deal, ask other Christians if they can attest to such a thing.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Before getting to my reply i must state that i have enjoyed this little debate we've been having...

Baseless arguments built on malformed premises and logical fallacies are evident apart from opinion but certainly I have the credentials and education to identify such things and of a truth, your arguments are full of both. Take it for what it's worth but I'm as open-minded as the next guy and you have yet to shake my faith according to what it is your trying to pass as truth.

Im not trying to shake your faith... only point out the obvious... Let me try again...

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'
1 Samuel 15:2-3

Women... children and infants... This is a Just and Merciful God?

Again, there is NO excuse for this kind of behaviour... even from the so called "creator"...

You call it Gods judgement... I call it senseless murder.... This God does not deserve the paper these words are written on... let alone mans worship.

A "former" minister? I don't know how that's supposed to make your argument legitimate. Nevertheless, consensus doesn't make truth. There are many who would agree with your points. Many more will not. I don't because of my education in psychology as well as my education in reading the bible for myself. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

Apparently you read around the attrocities caused by your God...

False. Your argument is based on the subjective opinion that atrocities have been committed denying the very God this argument is against His right as Supreme Authority, Creator, and owner of all including life and death.

So basically do as i say... not as i do... Sorry i don't work that way...

A God that can't even follow his own rules... is a pathetic God

This God only has authority over those who believe in IT... Whatever IT is... IT has no authority over me....

Did the OT God not have mercy on whom He would have mercy; and judgment upon whom He would have judgment?

Yes and he also ordered people to kill the innocent....

To present a valid argument against God one has to allow Him His authority otherwise logic and reason are out the window and all that's left is emotional rant against one who by definition is of no power nor entitled to authority and as such is therefore not God

I think you're catching on slowly.... And AGAIN... this is not an arguement against God... it is against the bible, specifically the God of the OT, which is NOT the true God

His followers taught that Jesus didn't find it robbery to be equal with God

Exactly...but... Jesus did not teach anything of the sort...

Otherwise, sin would still be holding him in the grave.

Nonsense....

If you want to make baseless assertions according to opinions and pass them off as truth then you certainly can do that

Unfortunatly they are not baseless assertions... Every passage i've presented has a base in your Book... read in context with the rest of the chapter anyone can clearly see this so called "God" is a raving maniac... Not the one Jesus spoke of...

Hardly. I'm a pacifist according to my faith. You must be thinking about the Catholics or the warmongering republican Christians. You should take it up with one of them.

Perhaps...

If you respect Jesus then you should heed Jesus when he commands us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to place no other God's before Him. Spitting in the monsters face isn't going to help you at all in this life or the next. For your own emotional well-being in this life I propose finding some semblance of peace with our and Jesus Father

I love God with all my heart and soul... The verses i've present are not from God... I would not worship this demon God... And neither would Jesus...

How profound! You don't ignore scripture......unless you have no use for it?

Good grief. Judge yourself by your own words much?

I didn't say that... i don't ignore scripture... but i know what is from God and what is not.... Gods words are found in 4 books within the bible... they came directly from his son.... The rest of said book is useless aside from the fact that is its a fantastic read.... There is only hints of the true God within the OT... Mostly found within proverbs and psalms...

Like I say, the message speaks for itself. Perhaps you can show me where Paul errs in teaching according to the Holy Spirit?

I believe i already did... Jesus was not equal to God as he said...

I'm not the one who admittedly cherry picks while disregarding scripture he has no use for according to his own understanding.

Normally im completely against "cherry picking" but i don't deal with Paul's work... It is useless aside from his ideas on Love... And i admitted directly to cherry picking those verses... What happened to the forgiveness which asked for when said cherry picking happened?

Your argument was that God proclaims all are His children using a verse quoted of David.

That's what.

It came from your book... which you claim is Gods word... Dare ye deny Gods word?

Like I said, being creation no more makes a donkey a child of God than being a creature of God makes you or me a child of God. Being a child of God is determined in possessing the Holy Spirit.

So Christians are 'better" then everyone else?

Can you not see why "Christians" are hated all over the world? Its because of these ideals... A Christian is no more and no less a child of God then a hindu... or a muslim... an athiest... or anyone else.

Get over yourself... Jesus wasn't christian... And i believe if he saw the state of said religon his head would likely explode in disgust.

Stop thinking that you're going to heaven according to your good works and accept the fact that you can't do, and be however you want regardless of the will of our Father.

Heaven? I don't believe in heaven as you christians do....

There is an afterlife, where we all came from and we all return to.... The Christian dogmatic view of the afterlife is a fairy tale...

Have you not defined your God as being limited to what you find usable and not usable?

Nope...

God is not in that book my friend... though his words can be found within...

My God is not limited to a pathetic book written by men... IF God inspired said book... there would be no mistakes, no contradictions... it would be flawless, as the words of Jesus are...

Sadly the book is full of logical, geographical, and factual errors... Its NOT Gods word... period

Question is are you really serving a god who you are creating according to what you want him to be and not according to who he is independent of us?

Ask yourself that same question.... Are you serving a God that lives in a book full of errors?

OR A God that has a base of reality...

Question is, how is it not selfish to refuse God authority in so much that we cherry-pick what we want and refuse what we don't understand thereby transforming God's existence and authority into being subject to us and our desires as opposed to granting our Father due benevolence as independent and not subject to us?

The bible is NOT the word of God... and thus it has NO authority over my life...

Hindu's believe their bible is the word of God as well... Why is your book better then theirs? It actually has less errors within it... And the vedas are FAR older...

You assume i should accept the bible as Gods authority... That in my opinion is complete and utter foolishness... it leads to nothing but judgement of others...


IF the bible had any authority... it would change the world for the better as the words of Jesus do...

The bible as a whole has had a horible effect on our planet and our species...

It causes hatered of others and judgement of others through the religions it spawns...

Originally posted by Joecroft

Thanks, it good to know that people see things that way, and don’t buy into this predestination theology.

For me, saying "predestination" is like saying "free will."

If there is nothing new under the sun, if there are only a limited and set amount of choices to be made in any given situation then on a certain level "free-will" would be a lie we have told ourselves to make us feel better about being slaves to whatever.

Although God knows who will and who will not be His, I believe grace was predestined whereas our self-centered understanding of "predestination" exists as a notion to make us feel better about an uncertain future.

So I do believe in predestination and free-will, just not as the masses do.

Now in the context of how your using the term Child of God, do you think this means that God has the right, or that he would command others to kill those, who weren’t yet children of God?

I have only ever found one righteous man whose death was ordained by God and that was Jesus'. Other than that, all have sinned therefore God's judgment, whatever it might be, is just. Do I believe death removes us from the power of God? No, Jesus ascended into sheol for three days setting the captives free. That being said, are we discussing "children of God" according to the Grace found in Jesus Christ whereas we have been given commandment to love our neighbors and turn the other cheek, and forgive and feed our enemies and bless those who curse us or are we talking about "children of God" according to the Law who were led according to their purpose before the time of grace?

Well, here’s how I see it…I qualify God as righteous, because he didn’t command others to kill for him. We are under grace now but even in OT times, men were being declared righteous and unrighteous by God all the time. But God still gave many unrighteous men, time to change, and find him, without commanding anyone, to kill them ,for him, before they got to that point. And like I said in my last post, God never changes, so his judgments have to remain just and consistent.

Scripturally I read our Father will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and vengeance upon whom judgement is reserved. This is totally at His discretion as far as I am concerned and I believe in the righteousness of whatever judgment He passes, for He is God.

You say many who were unrighteous were given time to repent but many also fell in an instant. Our time to repent are the moments we have breath. and we don't know when the last might come.

To make things clear, God has commanded life, forgiveness, mercy, and grace through Jesus Christ. We are not commanded to take life but to give and support it, even the life of our enemies. Our war is not with flesh and blood. We have our commandment.

But on one hand you say I’m putting words into your mouth, and on the other, your saying Gods judgment was fine? So which is it?

I never said He doesn't care and that's where you put words in my mouth. His judgment is fine and if you don't agree then perhaps we need to address the conundrum of worshiping "our Father, the Unrighteous who exacts judgment where He has no authority or dominion."

Let your yes, be yes and your no, be no…by “God's judgment is fine”, do you see God commanding people to kill non-beliers, as somehow just and righteous?

Since "grace" we have our commandments. As far as the OT goes, if you'll provide the reference perhaps we can discuss why judgment was passed and how it is or is not a righteous judgment according to the One with all authority and dominion and power.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
The Creator has the authority to judge and has every right to take back what he has given. The accusation by akra was murder. I suggested that "the shedding of innocent blood" is not upon God's hands.

Well, in a way, it is on Gods hands, especially if you believe that God commanded those evil things. Which I don’t btw…

First, no sinner is innocent.

Second, death does not separate those who belong to God from God.

Third, when God is "repented of evil" it means He decides against destruction according to His own judgment. When we talk about "evil" in the human sense we are discussing sin and/or rebellion against the will of God.

So, I still find the argument of murder to be unfounded.

Originally posted by Joecroft

Yes, but even in OT times God allowed others time to become righteous, but by believing that God commanded others to kill unbelievers, your essentially saying, that God breaks his own laws, and his own judgment plan.

Not so because what you are doing is only looking at one side of a coin and professing commandment according to what it is we do not see. I'll explain.

You say God gave some time to become righteous therefore if He commands that anybody kill anybody then He is not giving all time to be righteous and is thus breaking His own laws but what you are disregarding is God's right to determine each of our times as He sees fit. You are also disregarding to fact that every breath we take is a moment of God's righteous patience for the repentance of sin so to say the unrighteous were given time is inaccurate. During the OT the Israelites were given the Law of God while the other nations wasted away in the worship of their idols. Furthermore, God knows the hearts and intents or every man. He has all the right and capability of making decisions the are only His to make and making them according to righteousness.

Righteous, God-honoring people weren't those who fell at the sword by God's command in the OT.

Every breath was time to repent, and who's to say Jesus didn't preach the gospel even to them when He descended into sheol? it is not my will that they perish. I can only hope Jesus was capable and accomplished such a thing unto those who would have had His grace while locked up in death.

In any case, our Father's judgement is righteous and who are we to judge Him as anything but righteous?

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Then what is your Gods just excuse for killing innocent women and children?

CHILDREN!!!

Who would not even understand any concept of God...

What a disgusting tyrant OT God is

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

I meant coming to the table without a lick of understanding.

Do you mean being brainwashed in a cult?
Are you going to be disappointed if you go to heaven and see Jesus?
Do you think you deserve better?

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

A "former" minister? I don't know how that's supposed to make your argument legitimate. Nevertheless, consensus doesn't make truth. There are many who would agree with your points. Many more will not. I don't because of my education in psychology as well as my education in reading the bible for myself. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

Do who in the what now??
You are correct, truth is not determined by a show of hands.....
but to not agree BECAUSE of your "education in psychology as well as [your] education in reading the bible for [your]self" is really pushing it.

What "education" did you receive? "Degreed", you say? How far did you go? Graduated from high school? Two years of junior college? Degreed? From where?
Have you read William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience: A Study in Human Nature? It's 100 years old. Written by a psychologist....just thought you might find it enlightening.

Take it or leave it? I'll leave it.

reply to post by wildtimes

(and in my professional opinion as being a degreed psychologist)

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
For me, saying "predestination" is like saying "free will."

Do you ever give a straight answer…don’t answer that lol


How can “predestination” be like saying "free will?"

If “free will” didn’t exist, then “predestination” would become King!

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
If there is nothing new under the sun, if there are only a limited and set amount of choices to be made in any given situation then on a certain level "free-will" would be a lie we have told ourselves to make us feel better about being slaves to whatever.

Although God knows who will and who will not be His, I believe grace was predestined whereas our self-centered understanding of "predestination" exists as a notion to make us feel better about an uncertain future.

So I do believe in predestination and free-will, just not as the masses do.

Well, now you’ve really gone and confused me on this one…because before in your previous posts, you seemed to be agreeing that “predestination” was not correct…but now, I don’t know what to think…and it’s really important when discussing this topic, see further in this post, below…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Scripturally I read our Father will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and vengeance upon whom judgement is reserved. This is totally at His discretion as far as I am concerned and I believe in the righteousness of whatever judgment He passes, for He is God.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
You say many who were unrighteous were given time to repent but many also fell in an instant. Our time to repent are the moments we have breath. and we don't know when the last might come.

But this is why the “predestination” issue is so important, because I believe God doesn’t infringe on persons “free will”. He allows people time to find and seek his righteousness, not only now, but in OT times as well, which is why I believe God doesn’t change.
So anything which goes against that, can’t be from God IMO…God just doesn’t work that way…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I never said He doesn't care and that's where you put words in my mouth. His judgment is fine and if you don't agree then perhaps we need to address the conundrum of worshiping "our Father, the Unrighteous who exacts judgment where He has no authority or dominion."

I don’t see God as unrighteous, I just don’t believe that he commanded others, to kill anyone, for any reason, ever!!!…
I believe men abused their power and position, by telling others that God commanded those evil things, when God did no such thing!!!

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Since "grace" we have our commandments. As far as the OT goes, if you'll provide the reference perhaps we can discuss why judgment was passed and how it is or is not a righteous judgment according to the One with all authority and dominion and power.

The references were in context to Akragons initial post…and I could be wrong, but I think it was in relation to atrocities committed in Deuteronomy…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

You say God gave some time to become righteous therefore if He commands that anybody kill anybody then He is not giving all time to be righteous and is thus breaking His own laws but what you are disregarding is God's right to determine each of our times as He sees fit.

But God doesn’t interfere with a persons “freewill” IMO, for any reason, he only really helps to guide people. Plus God has appointed everyone to live and die, and then face judgment. Which is why I don’t believe he would interfere with his own plans, for any of us.


If God killed everyone who was not a believer in him, then none of them, would have a chance to become a believer or at least change their ways. Remember, God doesn’t change, and we don’t see Jesus going around commanding people to kill un-believers…so unless you think God has somehow gone through some radical changes in personality… then how can you explain it?


- JC