Christian Double Talk on Trinity is the root of their being Dead in Christ

Despite the antagonistic revelations within the thread, I find there to exist a unique play on words in the OP's title that, for some of us, is the equivalent of an amazing proclamation of blessing upon the believers.

I know the double talk is a hard thing to receive but Jesus is clear that Our Father is One, and yet He has made Himself available to us in three parts that we might fully and intimately be able to know Him, His love, and His grace. Our Father is One, Jesus is His way, and the Holy Spirit leads us. Nevertheless, the Father is One and to be worshiped as Father.

Now, as pertaining to the aforementioned blessing, hear these three from scripture speaking to what being "dead in Christ" actually means:

Romans 6:8-11

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Colossians 3:1-4

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I am honored to be dead in Christ according to scripture, and I am honored that a true understanding of scripture would lead us to such a place as rising with Christ in the day of his return whether alive or asleep.

Thank you OP for the beautiful blessing in your title.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

There's no explanation for inferring rape where marriage and protective laws are written and that can be seen. Nothing you've provided supports the argument that God commands rape. All you're doing is confusing people with your eisegisis and belligerence apart from what Scripture really says.

as i've said, God didn't "command" hardly anything you'll read about in the OT..

The point i was trying to make 3 pages ago was that many of the things you'll read about within the bible were not "acts of God"... they were acts of men hiding behind the claim that God commanded them.

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Feel free to call that Gods judgement... I will not... i call it murder...

God would not ask his children to harm one another... This is NOT Gods word... Period

As for the rest of your rant, I hope you find a way to get rid of that hateful spirit.

No hateful spirit here my friend... i don't hate anything... Theres tons of amazing stories in the OT... the issue comes when people take it seriously... or as "the word of God"...

It isn't doing any of us any good.

I disagree... Hopefully people will see the garbage that is in the OT and avoid it when looking for spiritual knowledge... There is very little found within the OT... Save Psalms, Proverbs and a few other books

I hope you find peace. I know you're intelligent and I don't understand why you've taken this stance apart from what we both know to be the real truth according to the Word. My best hopes for you, brother.

My thanks, but i found piece within my life many years ago...

I've taken this stance on the bible because i see the flaws within it... The real truth came from Jesus, not from the OT... or much of the NT for that matter...

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff


I am honored to be dead in Christ according to scripture, and I am honored that a true understanding of scripture would lead us to such a place as rising with Christ in the day of his return whether alive or asleep.

Thank you OP for the beautiful blessing in your title.

I guess you know that you admit to being Dead in Christ, and thus not knowing his real message.

You only discover how wrong you have been at the end.

Till then..

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

There's no explanation for inferring rape where marriage and protective laws are written and that can be seen. Nothing you've provided supports the argument that God commands rape. All you're doing is confusing people with your eisegisis and belligerence apart from what Scripture really says.

as i've said, God didn't "command" hardly anything you'll read about in the OT..

The point i was trying to make 3 pages ago was that many of the things you'll read about within the bible were not "acts of God"... they were acts of men hiding behind the claim that God commanded them.

pick a side. At one turn you say God commands rape. At the next turn you agree with me that God doesn't command rape but falsely claim the bible doesn't agree with us on the matter. Then you provide quotes for the argument that scripture does say God commands rape but in no way actually does according to anything but personal inferences that disregard to fullness of the text. Now you're back on the "God didn't command such things" bandwagon after you just got through "spitting in his face when you see the monster?"

Good grief.

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

You're going off on the murder tangent when the point is still rape and really the trinity if we can get back to the thread at some point. Nevertheless, you do realize this "vision" beginning in ch8 is of what was/is to come and not what was happening in the physical moment? Interestingly, see www.fivedoves.com... article "Where are we on the the 2008-2015 timeline," paragraph: ANCHOR 1 for synopsis of the importance of June 25th, 2012/5 Tammuz/Ez 8:1/establishing of the abomination in the temple

Feel free to call that Gods judgement... I will not... i call it murder...

Can't defend rape so now to murder

Definitively, murder necessitates the shedding of innocent blood or the taking of life that is not yours to take. Nevertheless, 1. all have sinned and 2. if God, then all belongs to God so "murder" really isn't the right term in any case.

As for the rest of your rant, I hope you find a way to get rid of that hateful spirit.

No hateful spirit here my friend... i don't hate anything... Theres tons of amazing stories in the OT... the issue comes when people take it seriously... or as "the word of God"...

Spit in the monster's face? Either you have a lying spirit that hates our Father from the beginning or what you're saying is true and that would mean you are taking this too seriously. In which case your issue is with yourself and that's a whole 'nother problem.

Like I said, I hope you get it figured out.

I hope you find peace. I know you're intelligent and I don't understand why you've taken this stance apart from what we both know to be the real truth according to the Word. My best hopes for you, brother.

My thanks, but i found piece within my life many years ago...

Yep, we can all tell you found a piece of something but how bout some peace with our Father. best hopes.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff


I am honored to be dead in Christ according to scripture, and I am honored that a true understanding of scripture would lead us to such a place as rising with Christ in the day of his return whether alive or asleep.

Thank you OP for the beautiful blessing in your title.

I guess you know that you admit to being Dead in Christ, and thus not knowing his real message.

You only discover how wrong you have been at the end.

Till then..

Come on, why not include all of what I said including the verses of Scripture speaking to what being "dead in Christ" really means?

I really meant what I said, thank you for the blessing.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

pick a side. At one turn you say God commands rape. At the next turn you agree with me that God doesn't command rape but falsely claim the bible doesn't agree with us on the matter. Then you provide quotes for the argument that scripture does say God commands rape but in no way actually does according to anything but personal inferences that disregard to fullness of the text. Now you're back on the "God didn't command such things" bandwagon after you just got through "spitting in his face when you see the monster?"

Good grief.

Confused yet?

The bible isn't Gods word... It is mans word... This is where the confliction happens...

Though Gods word can be found within...

You're going off on the murder tangent when the point is still rape and really the trinity if we can get back to the thread at some point. Nevertheless, you do realize this "vision" beginning in ch8 is of what was/is to come and not what was happening in the physical moment? Interestingly, see www.fivedoves.com... article "Where are we on the the 2008-2015 timeline," paragraph: ANCHOR 1 for synopsis of the importance of June 25th, 2012/5 Tammuz/Ez 8:1/establishing of the abomination in the temple

The point was "attrocities" 3 pages ago... i was simply giving examples... And this also ties in with said trinity discussion because God is not a trinity according to the book... Nor did HE write/inspire said book...

And your link doesn't work...

Can't defend rape so now to murder

Definitively, murder necessitates the shedding of innocent blood or the taking of life that is not yours to take. Nevertheless, 1. all have sinned and 2. if God, then all belongs to God so "murder" really isn't the right term in any case.

Im not defending anything... IF you don't agree with the passages i gave as examples... its fine with me.

Nevertheless

1. True, all have sinned... that is why Jesus came... as an example of how we can live without sin...

2. Murder is murder... I don't believe God would command his children to harm one another... Yet the bible gives many examples of "God" commanding people to kill others among other things.

This is not my God... I do not know this God...

IF you believe the bible is "the word of God" you must logically also agree that these are Gods words... Thus we do not have the same God.

Spit in the monster's face? Either you have a lying spirit that hates our Father from the beginning or what you're saying is true and that would mean you are taking this too seriously. In which case your issue is with yourself and that's a whole 'nother problem.

Like I said, I hope you get it figured out.

Why is it always one way or the other with you people?

I have no reason to lie... and as i've said... IF the bible is your Gods words... I do not know your God...

I do not believe in the "Christian" idea of what God is either... God is not a person... or anything we could possibly comprehend... but we can know what HE is like from his son...

The God Jesus discribes does not fall in line with the God(s) if the OT... Its just a shame "christians" can't "figure" that out...

Yep, we can all tell you found a piece of something but how bout some peace with our Father.

Apparently we do not have the same Father... You'll find no peace with the OT God with me...

Originally posted by Akragon
The bible isn't Gods word... It is mans word... This is where the confliction happens...

Is the matter between you and I not "your word" vs what scripture actually says?

The point was "attrocities" 3 pages ago... i was simply giving examples... And this also ties in with said trinity discussion because God is not a trinity according to the book... Nor did HE write/inspire said book...

Actually it reads in (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Jesus also proclaims, I and the Father are one," as well as "before Abraham was, I am."

it's there and the trinity does not negate the worship of our God as one, as Father and Jesus as His Son.

nd your link doesn't work...

Google the key words if you're interested

1. True, all have sinned... that is why Jesus came... as an example of how we can live without sin...

So we aren't misunderstood, we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves or according to our works lest any man should boast. Right?

2. Murder is murder... I don't believe God would command his children to harm one another... Yet the bible gives many examples of "God" commanding people to kill others among other things.

All belong to God but not all are His children; not in deed, truth, or most importantly "Spirit"

Remember, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me," or "they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me," or "if you love me keep my commandments?"

The appeal to emotion is your logically fallacy as well as disregarding scripture itself making "His children" the equivalent of everybody, including the wicked.

Spit in the monster's face? Either you have a lying spirit that hates our Father from the beginning or what you're saying is true and that would mean you are taking this too seriously. In which case your issue is with yourself and that's a whole 'nother problem.

Like I said, I hope you get it figured out.

Why is it always one way or the other with you people?

Perhaps because black and white, right and wrong do exist. You're arguments are everywhere and you haven't made one valid point with verifiable premises yet.

I do not believe in the "Christian" idea of what God is either... God is not a person... or anything we could possibly comprehend... but we can know what HE is like from his son...

I don't know one Christian who believes our Father is flesh. Scripture is clear that our Father is spirit and to be worshiped in spirit.

I know better but according to all your baseless assertions and refusal of reasoned rationale obviously you don't understand Biblical Christianity at all and don't seem to want to. I want peace for your spirit and it's apparent you are at odds in spirit with our Father. I would that it were not so. Our Father is and has always been righteous in His judgments....in the OT and NT.

The God Jesus discribes does not fall in line with the God(s) if the OT... Its just a shame "christians" can't "figure" that out...

Right now we are so blessed to be under grace. Our Father's wrath has been abated but wickedness and sin will not always abound. Perhaps you don't believe Jesus about our Father in Revelation but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Apparently we do not have the same Father... You'll find no peace with the OT God with me...

We do have the same Father, we just don't worship Him the same. I shutter at the audacity to spit in the Father's face believing Him a monster in your heart of hearts. Nevertheless I do the very same thing everytime I sin. Don't prepare yourself for war with our Father, please.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Is the matter between you and I not "your word" vs what scripture actually says?

No...

The matter is what attrocities The God of the OT has apparently commited... vs What Jesus said about God...

They do not go hand and hand... Thus it is my opinion that they are not the same "God"

Actually it reads in (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Yes... that is john telling you that...

Now...

This is what Jesus said on the matter...

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:

Jesus also proclaims, I and the Father are one," as well as "before Abraham was, I am."

You simply misunderstand the verses...

I and my Father are one is not a proclaimation of him being God.... He is of the same essence as God the Father... Just as you are of the essence of your mother and father...

One and the same essence... Not one and the same entity...

it's there and the trinity does not negate the worship of our God as one, as Father and Jesus as His Son

The trinity was not taught by Jesus or his followers... It was added 300+ years later by early christian church "fathers"...

Look up Comma Johanneum...

That verse you believe proves the trinity has been debated by scholars for years... most hold to the fact that it was added hundreds of years later... And was definatly not part of any original texts...

So we aren't misunderstood, we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves or according to our works lest any man should boast. Right?

Wrong... Apparently...

Take a look through the Gospels and see how many times Jesus mentioned "grace"........ Not once. Its only menetioned in Narritive...

This is more paulian Garbage... Grace is a whitewash... Which simply says, we believe so we are forgiven and saved regardless of what we do... That is just incorrect...

You will be judged by your deeds in this life... Grace has nothing to do with anything as far as being "saved" is concerned...

And speaking of which... Paul says "lest we boast"... He boasted constantly... blatantly!

All belong to God but not all are His children; not in deed, truth, or most importantly "Spirit"

Remember, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me," or "they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me," or "if you love me keep my commandments?"

The appeal to emotion is your logically fallacy as well as disregarding scripture itself making "His children" the equivalent of everybody, including the wicked.

Christian spiritual propaganda... "You must be with us, or you're not Gods child"...

God created everything... the light and the dark... All life is of God... And ALL of man kind are Gods children...including the "wicked".... They have their purpose just like everything else..

And i couldn't care less what the bible says on this matter...

Perhaps because black and white, right and wrong do exist. You're arguments are everywhere and you haven't made one valid point with verifiable premises yet.

That is your opinion... Feel free to disregard the obvious....

I know better but according to all your baseless assertions and refusal of reasoned rationale obviously you don't understand Biblical Christianity at all and don't seem to want to. I want peace for your spirit and it's apparent you are at odds in spirit with our Father. I would that it were not so. Our Father is and has always been righteous in His judgments....in the OT and NT.

I simply don't accept nonsense... Biblical Christianity is just as flawed as the book it came from... that is why theres 34k different flavors of said religion.

And i am not at odds with my God what so ever... I am quite blessed in my life... thanks

If you think the OT God is righteous... feel free... i will not... I believe this God was a demon poseing as God to people that didn't know any better...

We do have the same Father, we just don't worship Him the same. I shutter at the audacity to spit in the Father's face believing Him a monster in your heart of hearts. Nevertheless I do the very same thing everytime I sin. Don't prepare yourself for war with our Father, please.

I hope you can convince yourself of that... OT God is not my God...

So apparently we have different Gods.

And i am always prepared for war against those that support this false God...

He/she/IT is not my God... Nor is IT the Father of your saviour...

Perhaps one day you'll see that

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff



I hate to interrupt like this, but I feel like I need to comment on your post below…in context to your reply to Akragons post…

Originally posted by Akragon
Murder is murder... I don't believe God would command his children to harm one another... Yet the bible gives many examples of "God" commanding people to kill others among other things.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
All belong to God but not all are His children; not in deed, truth, or most importantly "Spirit"

Remember, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me," or "they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me," or "if you love me keep my commandments?"

The appeal to emotion is your logically fallacy as well as disregarding scripture itself making "His children" the equivalent of everybody, including the wicked.

First off…we are all Gods children, whether people are aware of it, or not.

Secondly…that verse “my sheep hear my voice” etc, is about people who have come to believe in Jesus, and now have become his sheep, and now hear his voice.

It’s not about some people being pre-destined, while others are somehow not chosen etc… but instead it’s about believers now hearing him for the first time, because they have come to believe in who Jesus is.

And in context to your reply above, you are essentially saying that God doesn’t care about a few people, who he considers aren’t his children, which is just ridiculous. For 3 main reasons…


(1) From Adam and Eve onwards, all are Gods children and Gods judgment is supposed to come after someone has lived a life, in accordance with Gods own judgment plan. So God doesn’t infringed on his own judgment plan, by having others, kill for him.


(2) God commanded people not to kill each other, so any law which goes against that, did not come from God IMO, and it most likely came from men, abusing their position, power and authority… Unless of course you think God breaks his own laws.


(3) And finally, God does not require any one to kill for him, period…I mean, he could quite easily strike them down, where they stood, if he so desired. But the point is, that it’s just not in Gods nature, or plan, to do, or command, those types of evil things, and anyone who thinks it is, does not know, or understand the Father God IMO.


- JC

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

No...

The matter is what attrocities The God of the OT has apparently commited... vs What Jesus said about God...

They do not go hand and hand... Thus it is my opinion that they are not the same "God"

Every argument one has presented has been based on private eisegesis and that apart from full context of scripture. Also the appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy) plays a large role in the allegation of murder. No sound argument with valid premises has been presented. The "Trinity" doesn't mean we worship anyone but God as Father. There is no commandment for rape. And "murder" is a misnomer for what is actually happening.

One's arguments have been presented according to one's own words trying to be passed as the Word of God according to scripture therefore this truly has come down to "your words" vs "God's Word."

You simply misunderstand the verses...

I and my Father are one is not a proclaimation of him being God.... He is of the same essence as God the Father... Just as you are of the essence of your mother and father...

One and the same essence... Not one and the same entity...

You have confused Christianity with some other religion. We don't worship the Trinity as Father. We worship the Father as Father and honor the Father when we worship His Son as the only begotten who sacrificed his life that we might have everlasting life.

What you speak of is the very essence of what I told you before and is at the heart of the "double-talk" dilemma. Although the three are one in essence as you say, the "trinity" does not negate our worship of God as One, as Father. Any other understanding is not an understanding of Biblical Christianity, for we know according to scripture that Jesus is the Word made flesh and the Father is spirit and to be worshiped in spirit. Obviously they are not the same entity yet in accordance to the spirit they are very much one.

Even without the "comma johanneum" the original ink still reads, "Three bear witness." The very verses you quoted are evidence that that there are 3 who bear this witness: our Father first, the Word made flesh second, and since Jesus ascended he sent us the "Comforter" who witnesses third and He is the Holy Spirit.

"Trinity" is an understanding of "how" God has expressed himself to us. What the "trinity" is not is a license to worship anyone but the Father as Father.

So we aren't misunderstood, we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves or according to our works lest any man should boast. Right?

Wrong... Apparently...

Take a look through the Gospels and see how many times Jesus mentioned "grace"........ Not once. Its only menetioned in Narritive...

Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." John 11:25-26

Jesus says, "For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43 - In context we see a sinner whose works led him to hanging on a tree next to Jesus while his faith led him to salvation by Jesus.

Jesus says, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house." Mark 2:10-11 - Jesus has power to forgive sins and there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.

Do not trust in your works, oh man but trust in the finished work of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is more paulian Garbage... Grace is a whitewash... Which simply says, we believe so we are forgiven and saved regardless of what we do... That is just incorrect...

The doctrine of "we believe so we can do what we want" is incorrect. What is also incorrect is that Paul teaches such a thing. If you care to know why see Paul in Romans 6 for clarification of his stance and doctrine on the matter.

You will be judged by your deeds in this life... Grace has nothing to do with anything as far as being "saved" is concerned...

In this life there are consequences to our actions often regardless of forgiveness. King David proclaimed death for the man who stole the one man's lone sheep for sacrifice when he himself was the thief. God's forgiveness was proclaimed unto him but the life of his firstborn by Bathsheba was taken.

Spiritually speaking, the consequences of sin is separation from our Father but Jesus paid that penalty and now by grace through faith he is our redeemer.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

And speaking of which... Paul says "lest we boast"... He boasted constantly... blatantly!

we do not boast in/of ourselves but of Christ do we boast and of the things we do suffer for his name sake do we glory.

Christian spiritual propaganda... "You must be with us, or you're not Gods child"...

Listen to Jesus from Matthew 12:30, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

God created everything... the light and the dark... All life is of God... And ALL of man kind are Gods children...including the "wicked".... They have their purpose just like everything else..

Listen to Jesus from John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."

Listen to Jesus from Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."

Listen to Jesus from Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

There is much scripture on this very topic but know that no servant can serve two masters. Know that through Jesus Christ we are adopted as His children (Matthew 6:24, Ephesians 1: 4-6)

Perhaps because black and white, right and wrong do exist. You're arguments are everywhere and you haven't made one valid point with verifiable premises yet.

That is your opinion... Feel free to disregard the obvious....

Truth exists independent of us or it is no truth at all.

Relativism is sand for a foundation.

I simply don't accept nonsense... Biblical Christianity is just as flawed as the book it came from... that is why theres 34k different flavors of said religion.

One very well knows that the "34k different flavors" come from the doctrines of men.

Jesus message is simple, flawless, and one: Love the Father, and Love your neighbor.

And i am always prepared for war against those that support this false God...

Am I the "monster" who angers you so with his "atrocities"? Is it my face you long to spit in out of malice? Brother, your war is not with me but with the Father.

If He does not exist then your anger has been misplaced and you should relax but if He does exist, you should heed Solomon's words, for the beginning of knowledge is the fear of God.

He/she/IT is not my God... Nor is IT the Father of your saviour...

Listen to Jesus from Luke 10:16 saying to his disciples, "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

I am convinced and of a truth, one day every eye will see.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

First off…we are all Gods children, whether people are aware of it, or not.

Hear Jesus from John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Certainly we are all part of creation. Certainly we are all created for the working of the good will of our Father. Certainly it is not my will that any should perish but that all should come to everlasting life but truly, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

Brother, not everyone is a child of our Father where it counts, that being in spirit and in truth.(John 4:24)

Secondly… “my sheep hear my voice” etc, is about people who have come to believe in Jesus, and now have become his sheep, and now hear his voice.

It’s not about some people being pre-destined, while others are somehow not chosen etc… but instead it’s about believers now hearing him for the first time, because they have come to believe in who Jesus is.

Regardless of scripture proving your foundation baseless, the idea that there are those who are not his sheep, who don't hear his voice contradicts your stance that all are the children of God.

Hear Jesus in John 10:26 saying "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

See Eph 1.

And in context to your reply above, you are essentially saying that God doesn’t care about a few people, who he considers aren’t his children, which is just ridiculous. For 3 main reasons…

You essentially infer according to what supports your biases but of a truth our Father so loves us that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe in him should not perish by have everlasting life.

Don't presume others beliefs. I was once lost in my sins but God cares for me and gave His Son for me too, just like for everyone else. Our Father obviously loves us more than we deserve but He also knows whose hearts are hardened against him and this according to their own decision.

(1) From Adam and Eve onwards, all are Gods children

Not according to scripture. I've already provided the references.

and Gods judgment is supposed to come after someone has lived a life, in accordance with Gods own judgment plan. So God doesn’t infringed on his own judgment plan, by having others, kill for him.

This is arguable according to scripture. In times past when mankind was under the law He very well executed His judgments on peoples via exile at the hands of other nations. Today we live under grace and praise God for it but this does not negate the ordained time of life God has granted each of us. When our time is up, it is up regardless of the means of death.

May I clarify that I don't believe under grace God commands His people to kill people. We know by Jesus this is not His will for His children but again, not all are His children as some vessels have been fitted for destruction (Romans 9:22) and fires has been determined upon the earth for the fulfillment of a purpose, namely the refining of our spirits (Revelation 3:18 to Laodicea during the great tribulation)

(2) God commanded people not to kill each other, so any law which goes against that, did not come from God IMO, and it most likely came from men, abusing their position, power and authority… Unless of course you think God breaks his own laws.

As explained in #1, there is a difference in His will for His children and the judgment to be poured out upon the wicked. There is determined a purpose and a judgment to be fulfilled upon the world and it's wicked but their death is not by the hands of His children. See Ephesians 6.

(3) And finally, God does not require any one to kill for him, period…I mean, he could quite easily strike them down, where they stood, if he so desired. But the point is, that it’s just not in Gods nature, or plan, to do, or command, those types of evil things, and anyone who thinks it is, does not know, or understand the Father God IMO.

I don't disagree. Salvation is not accomplished by any sword other than the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

You may presume that I am a republican warmonger but I'm not. I want peace in the name of Jesus. Tyranny does not breed peace. Nevertheless, I believe God that there will be judgment and fire upon this place. Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord and soon enough he shall be to it.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Hear Jesus from John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Certainly we are all part of creation. Certainly we are all created for the working of the good will of our Father. Certainly it is not my will that any should perish but that all should come to everlasting life but truly, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

Brother, not everyone is a child of our Father where it counts, that being in spirit and in truth.(John 4:24)

Yes, I understand what you are saying but I believe those verses you site above, have a different interpretation. I believe we are all children of God and that any man, woman can find and come to know Jesus, if they would only seek him out with all their heart.

In that verse you quoted, John 8:44, I believe that Jesus says to the Pharisees “Ye are of your father the devil”, not because there is some divide, whereby some or pre-chosen, and some or not etc, but because they (the Pharisees) hadn’t yet come to find the truth, as to whom Jesus was, i.e. their hearts were blinded to the truth, and they were still following their own ways.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Secondly… “my sheep hear my voice” etc, is about people who have come to believe in Jesus, and now have become his sheep, and now hear his voice.

It’s not about some people being pre-destined, while others are somehow not chosen etc… but instead it’s about believers now hearing him for the first time, because they have come to believe in who Jesus is.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Regardless of scripture proving your foundation baseless, the idea that there are those who are not his sheep, who don't hear his voice contradicts your stance that all are the children of God.

Hear Jesus in John 10:26 saying "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

See Eph 1.

I think you’re misunderstanding what I am saying, I do believe that there are those who are his sheep and hear his voice. It’s just that, I don’t see it as something that is predestined. It is something, which happens along the journey in a persons life. In other words, we were all following the prince of this world at one time or another, until we came to believe in Jesus, and only then did we become his sheep. Now arguably God may call some, and not others, but Jesus does state that any man, can find him by seeking the truth.

There was once a time, when I didn’t hear God/Jesus voice either, because I didn’t believe in him; but now I do.

Originally posted by Joecroft
And in context to your reply above, you are essentially saying that God doesn’t care about a few people, who he considers aren’t his children, which is just ridiculous. For 3 main reasons…

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
You essentially infer according to what supports your biases but of a truth our Father so loves us that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe in him should not perish by have everlasting life.

Don't presume others beliefs. I was once lost in my sins but God cares for me and gave His Son for me too, just like for everyone else. Our Father obviously loves us more than we deserve but He also knows whose hearts are hardened against him and this according to their own decision.

I’m not sure what biases you’re referring to? And I wasn’t presuming anything about your beliefs; I was simple going by your reply to Akragons post below…

Here it is again…

Originally posted by Akragon
Murder is murder... I don't believe God would command his children to harm one another... Yet the bible gives many examples of "God" commanding people to kill others among other things.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
All belong to God but not all are His children; not in deed, truth, or most importantly "Spirit"

Remember, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me," or "they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me," or "if you love me keep my commandments?"

The appeal to emotion is your logically fallacy as well as disregarding scripture itself making "His children" the equivalent of everybody, including the wicked.

Continued…

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Continued…

Originally posted by Akragon
Murder is murder... I don't believe God would command his children to harm one another... Yet the bible gives many examples of "God" commanding people to kill others among other things.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
All belong to God but not all are His children; not in deed, truth, or most importantly "Spirit"

Remember, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me," or "they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me," or "if you love me keep my commandments?"

The appeal to emotion is your logically fallacy as well as disregarding scripture itself making "His children" the equivalent of everybody, including the wicked.

You were stating that “his children” being everybody, was incorrect, because they were wicked, and weren’t his sheep etc and in that context you were also condoning this idea, that God killing them, was somehow fine. Please correct me if I’m wrong here….

So no biases were being brought into it, and I didn’t presume anything, I was simply going by your reply, in context to your conversation with said poster.

Originally posted by Joecroft
and Gods judgment is supposed to come after someone has lived a life, in accordance with Gods own judgment plan. So God doesn’t infringed on his own judgment plan, by having others, kill for him

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
This is arguable according to scripture. In times past when mankind was under the law He very well executed His judgments on peoples via exile at the hands of other nations. Today we live under grace and praise God for it but this does not negate the ordained time of life God has granted each of us. When our time is up, it is up regardless of the means of death.

Yes, when your time is up your time is up, but God even allows the unrighteous in the OT and NT, time to become righteous, by living out a life, so the means of death, does not include God killing them IMO

According to the scriptures, God is the same yesterday, today and forever, he never changes.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
May I clarify that I don't believe under grace God commands His people to kill people. We know by Jesus this is not His will for His children but again, not all are His children as some vessels have been fitted for destruction (Romans 9:22) and fires has been determined upon the earth for the fulfillment of a purpose, namely the refining of our spirits (Revelation 3:18 to Laodicea during the great tribulation)

But this is the point I’m trying to get across to you, this idea that some are not his children, is only true, in the sense that some people haven’t yet come to know Jesus yet, and know the Father through him. We become his sheep and hear his voice when we come to believe in him, although like I said above, some people are specifically called by God, but that doesn’t mean that others, are not his children.


- JC

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

We worship the Father as Father and honor the Father when we worship His Son as the only begotten who sacrificed his life that we might have everlasting life.

Jesus, as Lord, is deserving of worship regardless of being God or not.
john 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Being our lord automatically makes him our God, whether there is a higher Father God or not. Being a normal looking person and being born of a woman, would make it obvious that he was not God of the universe, and would be like the sort of thing expected by the messianic hopes of the time, a god of this planet, but not a political/military type lord which there were plenty of already.
He would be the representative of that supreme God who we can have fellowship with through him.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Every argument one has presented has been based on private eisegesis and that apart from full context of scripture. Also the appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy) plays a large role in the allegation of murder. No sound argument with valid premises has been presented.

Again that is your opinion... every arguement you're presented trying to disprove the fact that the OT God commands such attrocities comes from a brainwashed christian perspective....

And yes, that is my opinion.

The "Trinity" doesn't mean we worship anyone but God as Father. There is no commandment for rape. And "murder" is a misnomer for what is actually happening.

SO you should thank God there are so many different "Christian" faiths... according to what i've read the trinity makes God, the son, and the spirit... Equal. And according to Jesus... that is wrong.

One's arguments have been presented according to one's own words trying to be passed as the Word of God according to scripture therefore this truly has come down to "your words" vs "God's Word."

No...

This is about what it says in the "bible" VS. What Jesus said...

How many times do i have to say that?

Even without the "comma johanneum" the original ink still reads, "Three bear witness." The very verses you quoted are evidence that that there are 3 who bear this witness: our Father first, the Word made flesh second, and since Jesus ascended he sent us the "Comforter" who witnesses third and He is the Holy Spirit.

Incorrect... This verse has NOTHING to do with the trinity with that part removed...

Watch...

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

And without....

5:7 "For there are three that bear record... the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Don't let yourself be fooled by your religion...

The doctrine of "we believe so we can do what we want" is incorrect. What is also incorrect is that Paul teaches such a thing. If you care to know why see Paul in Romans 6 for clarification of his stance and doctrine on the matter.

Sure.. i'll play... Heres the first two verses of Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You are dead to sin... Meaning "Christians don't sin"?

OR

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Either Christians do not sin... or no matter what they do... they are blameless...

Both ideas are nonsence... Forgive my cherry picking

Spiritually speaking, the consequences of sin is separation from our Father but Jesus paid that penalty and now by grace through faith he is our redeemer.

Grace is a white wash... a cop out... Jesus said nothing of the sort...

Grace is completly Paulian thought... Jesus did not teach the doctrine of "Grace"...

Listen to Jesus from Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

You're kidding right?

Im sorry but if you start claiming that Jesus spoke in Romans im going to have to ignore you.... That is utter foolishnss....

There is much scripture on this very topic but know that no servant can serve two masters. Know that through Jesus Christ we are adopted as His children

More christian propaganda.... We are ALL Gods children... Know ye not the Psalms

82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Truth exists independent of us or it is no truth at all.

The truth is obvious... The bible is not the word of God... Perhaps the word of your God... Not my God.

Am I the "monster" who angers you so with his "atrocities"? Is it my face you long to spit in out of malice? Brother, your war is not with me but with the Father

NO... My issue was never with you... You have your beliefs and you are welcome to them...

But it is belief systems that include the OT that are responsible for Christian Hatred all over the bloody planet...

I do not know you or who you are in real life... Nor do you know me... IF you feel you must judge me according to my beliefs you are free to do so... i judge no man, but the words of a man represents his/her beliefs.

You've continuously tried to explain away the fact that God of the OT is a malicious monster... Jealous, envious, wrathful... A Pathetic disgusting entity, and in no way does he deserve anyones worship.

Though again, if you disagree you are free to do so... but know that nothing can simply explain away what you can read about within the OT.

That God... is NOT my God... That God is NOT the father of Jesus...

Read his words, and the story is very clear to anyone.... when you start combining the rest of the bible with his words... that is when contradicitons, mistakes... and false understanding happen.

These things i can help you with... but if you're hooked on what your chruch has taught you... it will just be one continous arguement....

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying but I believe those verses you site above, have a different interpretation. I believe we are all children of God and that any man, woman can find and come to know Jesus, if they would only seek him out with all their heart.

I absolutely agree with you that our Father's grace through Jesus Christ is for all who would seek Him with their whole heart and although we all have that opportunity right now, many could care less to be one of His children.

In that verse you quoted, John 8:44, I believe that Jesus says to the Pharisees “Ye are of your father the devil”, not because there is some divide, whereby some or pre-chosen, and some or not etc, but because they (the Pharisees) hadn’t yet come to find the truth, as to whom Jesus was, i.e. their hearts were blinded to the truth, and they were still following their own ways.

The point here is that not all are His children so what we have here between you and I is a failure to agree upon what it means to be a "Child of God."

Being creation no more makes me a child of God than it makes a horse a child of God. The Holy Spirit is the difference and it is the difference between those who don't know Jesus and those who are Children of God.

Let us not forget that the Pharisees accused the Spirit in Jesus of casting out devils in the name of the devil. Remember Luke 12:10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him."

Of a truth, not all are the sons of God in Spirit and truth.

... we were all following the prince of this world at one time or another, until we came to believe in Jesus, and only then did we become his sheep...

This is the point I was making. Being "his sheep" is the equivalent of being "a child of God."

Before Jesus, before the Holy Spirit, we serve a master who is not God. We cannot serve God and mammon. Either we hold to the one and hate the other or hate the one and hold to the other. We are children of the respective god(s) to whom/which we individually hold.

Although God knows everything, it didn't stop Him from offering grace to us all. It didn't stop Him from sending a call to each of our hearts but I had to affirm/accept that call before I could honestly say I am adopted as a child of our Father.

I’m not sure what biases you’re referring to? And I wasn’t presuming anything about your beliefs; I was simple going by your reply to Akragons post below…

The problem with akragon's proposal is that he equates the "children of God" with all of humankind which is not scriptural and is what you and I have been discussing. Akra also disqualifies God's judgment as being righteous. He doesn't discern between being under the law as was in the OT and being under Grace. Akra does not accept the doctrine of Grace and that is pretty much where akra and I now stand.

You were stating that “his children” being everybody, was incorrect, because they were wicked, and weren’t his sheep etc and in that context you were also condoning this idea, that God killing them, was somehow fine. Please correct me if I’m wrong here….

You inferred that I essentially said God doesn’t care about a few people, who he considers aren’t his children. For arguments sake, putting words in peoples mouths works just fine but I never said such a thing nor do I believe such a thing. Not everybody is going to accept Christ or our Father and that means not everyone is His child. For the latter part, God's judgment is fine. The Creator has the authority to judge and has every right to take back what he has given. The accusation by akra was murder. I suggested that "the shedding of innocent blood" is not upon God's hands. I also suggested that "taking what doesn't belong to you in the first place" is not an accusation we can bring against God. I stand by my word, I believe God to be just and righteous. I feared Him first but perfect love has cast out all the fear.

Again I say, we all have the opportunity to accept grace right now but this doesn't mean that all have or will. I can hope beyond hope that all would but only those who hear his voice and answer the call are His children.

May we live not according to our own understanding but according to the very Word.

I do hold out hope for all humanity just as you do.

Blessing and peace to you my friend.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

First off.........Dewey! Hey bud. Hope you're doin all right.

We worship the Father as Father and honor the Father when we worship His Son as the only begotten who sacrificed his life that we might have everlasting life.

Jesus, as Lord, is deserving of worship regardless of being God or not.
john 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Being our lord automatically makes him our God, whether there is a higher Father God or not.

True, he does exercise power and authority but since he does we must also accept his word and him as the Word of our Father made flesh. Accordingly, we therefor can no longer disregard the One Father just because we want, and especially not in the light of Jesus the Christ of God.

Right?

Being a normal looking person and being born of a woman, would make it obvious that he was not God of the universe,

Oh really? Perception isn't always reality, you know?

He would be the representative of that supreme God who we can have fellowship with through him.

I accept Jesus as the way, truth and life so that I may come before the Father in boldness according to grace, love, and mercy.


It was good to hear from you Dewey.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

I accept Jesus as the way, truth and life so that I may come before the Father in boldness according to grace, love, and mercy.

This looks like a misinterpretation of Hebrews 4:16, where someone has taken it out of context and are making out that it is saying something else.
It is making an analogy to back in the OT the Israelites would come to the High Priest, who had come before God.
We can approach Jesus with confidence because he had come before God.
You should get away from that cult teaching you lies.