Christian Double Talk on Trinity is the root of their being Dead in Christ

Most know of the Babylon Trinity story where Nimrod Married his Mother, Semiramis, and liked to play god over building a tower to get close to heaven in the skies. Nimrod became so corrupt at playing god that he was killed and cut into little pieces and scattered, and was represented as going to the Sun in death. His wife/mother could find all his pieces but not the procreating bit, so she makes up a story that the Sun (Nimrod) fertilized her (Semiramis) to produce the Son (Tammus). This is the strange Pagan Sun worship Trinity theme of Father becomes the Son via the Holy Spirit of the Sun. This is the heart of Sun Worship belief, and a belief for gods that Egypt Cloned. Moses tossed out the Egyptian Concepts of these pagan gods in favor of one based on god being Nature's Ways.

The problems with Christian Double Talk begins as they plug Jesus into much of these old pagan Sun Worship belief stories. Jesus has a story of Virgin Birth, but it was really more one for an immaculate conception that was planned birth to have a savior come address a better way for god and heaven. Mary is cast into a role, like Semiramis, where she is fertilized by god. The real story is that Mary was never taught the Pagan Sun god worship was valid and thus was pure and pious of religious belief and she was chosen for Jesus Mother by the Essene's methods of piety, and in this way translated as Virgin. Mary and Joseph conceived Jesus in the normal fashion, but they had great plans for their son to became a Messiah to change how the issues of god were presented to the world. It was a great plan and one frought with resistance and much ignorance in the world.

Many of the concepts for god existed in the minds of men as thoughts and ideas, or the spiritual world of beliefs. Jesus teaching for "The Way" was about moving the concepts of the Sprit of god in the mind into that of building heaven on Earth by the clear explanations of how the spiritual concepts of the mind came into understanding. This meant that Jesus Way would be to teach the orgins of god from the natural order of the planet and in doing this greater understanding make heaven upon the Earth where god become reality as nature.

Jesus would show god as a father of all humans and one that serves the childrens needs and is loving toward them, if one understands the ways of nature. Nature provided great medicines like Myrrh, provided great nutrition via bread and wine, and they gave thanks to nature, as god, for these things. There was a logical way to transition god of the Spirit world of the mind into god and heaven on Earth, and it was based in explaining the simple truths and moving from heaven in the skies or spirit world into reality and Earth.

The Christian's Double-Talk attempts to tell that Mary was like Semiramis and got pregnant in thin air, when the real story was one of planned pregnancy from two pious parents with designs for the child to become a Messiah. There is a non-pagan version of Trinity for Jesus with the Concepts of Father (god), the Son (Jesus--born of the truth of god), and the Holy Spirit (the goals for taking Spiritual into reality on Earth). The real Jesus associated Trinity explains why the Babylon Trinity is false and pagan, and explains the roots of god lie in the explanations of nature's ways.

The Double-Talk of Christians make Jesus into Satan when they make his story like Babylon's Trinity. Then like Jesus, The Man, as a Messiah to make Heaven on Earth built on pious truth being told of god's origin in the ways of the Natural Order. It is the Christians that paint Jesus in the vogue of Babylon's Trinity that are dead in Christ. The Christians technically worship Jesus as Satan when they do this in their teaching. Only a very few understand that Jesus Trinity isn't that from Babylon. Those few that see the Jesus theme of "The Way" was about showing the world the ways of Nature to provide medicines like Myrrh and nourishments like bread and wine with Boron nutrition. They gave thanks for Nature's ways as god and the Lord's Prayer with the special word for super foods. Even the Lord's Prayer and the Last Supper theme was of this ultimate purpose of thanks to nature for these foods and the ultimate wish for Heaven on Earth via teaching these simple truths.

Christian don't claim anything other then what the Bible teaches

understanding the trinity, is not as important as the trinity itself.

if human beings can't understand that concept without divine help, the story of creation and genesis starts to make sense.

God has to talk to humanity, like you would talk about a car engine to a child.

in words and concepts that they can understand.

but if you look beyond the meaning of the words and the message thats conveyed, is that God created all things, including the universe.

the hows not important.

this argument is futile, the only end result is a fubar.


was a fubar thread what you were trying to achieve???

reply to post by randomname


Most don't think god needs to explain Trinity, just plain old human common sense does well enough for most. Besides, Trinity isn't in the Bible. It is pure human panderings to earlier concepts, all pagan.

All about falling away from Jesus teachings, all about making an metaphorical golden calf again. History well explains where humans went astray.

reluctant-messenger.com...


This definition defines God, not as a family, but as a committee. But how did this doctrine come to exist in modern Christianity? In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, it reads:

If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians … was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.

Most theologians know that the Trinity doctrine is not scriptural.

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All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon have adopted in one form or another a Trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz. In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Within Israel paganism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah. In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. In the book, A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity:

We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy … The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.

Historians also know that the Trinity doctrine is not authorized in the New Testament.

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. 2 And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. KJV

The English word for God here comes from the Hebrew word elohiym [el-o-heem']. This is not a singular noun, it is a plural noun. Strong's Concordance notes that elohiym is the plural of elowahh [GOD]. This is why God says "us" later in Genesis. God refers to God in the plural.

Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: … KJV

The Hebrew word elohiym is a uni-plural noun. Examples of English uni-plural nouns would be group, church or family. In one family, there is more than one member.

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Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god, now the symbol of the modern three-in-one believers. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo. These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their Trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a Trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy Trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ. Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the Trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ. That there was no formal, established doctrine of the Trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact. Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian Trinity was not a part of the first century church. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. So how then did a trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices.

One can now attempt to wave the hands and dig out of the issue that the Trinity was a later concept than the Bible's narratives and was more about the way earlier than Christ pagan concepts and polytheism.

Originally posted by POPtheKlEEN89
this argument is futile, the only end result is a fubar.

was a fubar thread what you were trying to achieve???

I appreciate your thread, Magnum. Star and flag. You are aware that there are members who agree with you, of course, and we are increasing in number as far as publicly declaring it.

As for it being "fubar"? Modern religion already is....what we have on earth today is a snafu...thanks to people's stubborn refusal to learn, grow, or update their "religious" beliefs. The Bible itself is in dire need of revision to put it in chronological order, attribute its authorship to the real writers, and dump the past archaic mythology that attempts to explain the Earth's normal behavior like methane emissions, earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, tornadoes, dust storms, locust plagues, droughts, ice ages, meteor collisions, ozone depletion, land bridges, tectonic shifts, etc......all of which are capable of wiping out entire societies.

The people who wrote it and later tweaked it were unaware of these global normalcies, thus attributed them to deities controlling things that hurt people.

By all means, a Creator can be a possible cause for what we don't get...but we just don't get it all...YET. Time to get with the new curriculum, and throw out the mess of a handbook and instruction kit that is the Bible, keep what's worthwhile in it, fix what is historically inaccurate, remember that we are ALL CONNECTED, we are "all Gods", and without cooperation, kindness, peaceful cohabitation and altruism, we are DOOMED.

Got it?
DOOMED. That's the bottom line. Get wiped out again by hatred and intolerance resulting in a world war while ignoring the destruction of our common home...have to start over once more as cavemen......
or GET WITH THE PROGRAM.

The thread is based on fairly widely-accepted evidence among objective seekers, which makes it worthy of considering as "fact", based on history and reality the tenets are correct. These realities have been discovered by frustrated and dedicated indivduals who have invested their professional or amateur lives into discovering the real "truth".

Only the panicky faithful would call it a fubar thread. Time to wake up, people. You joined this site to learn things, and presumably to help deny ignorance on the web. Here's a member who is providing good info, ammo and tools for debunking and deconstructing disinformation. Here's a good example of how we on ATS can continue to show folks what Denying Ignorance is all about!.

~wildtimes

reply to post by MagnumOpus


If only you could provide the proof that this story existed prior to the birth of Christ. I mean real archeological proof that this exact story was written prior to Christ. We know for certain through archeological proof that at least part of the Old Testament was written prior to his birth and we know that the entire bible was written within 100 years of his death and many sources prove that they were written within 30-50 years of his death.

I think far too many people are reading stories from various world religions and assuming that these stories predate Christianity. Your assumption simply does not make any of this fact. We can go around saying oral tradition all we want but if you weren't there it is not a fact. Only archeological evidence is fact.

The current facts by Archeological evidence are many of the places and people of the Old Testament were real. At least part of the Old Testament was written down prior to the birth of Christ and the whole New Testament was written between 30-100 years after his death.

Throughout the last 2000 years many people have tried to prove the bible incorrect. Is it possible that some of these people wrote stories that seemed to refute Christianity? Not only is it possible I believe it is also likely, since it is still happening today.

Again archeological proof or it did not happen. Isn't that one of the greatest mottos here at ATS, "PIC or it didn’t happen"? Why should I hold you to any less a standard?

1. Making the "Living God" the equivalent of inanimate "Nature" is double talk.

2. As for the bible never mentioning the trinity: (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

3.Get behind me Satan.

4. If God is and has been from the beginning then is it really that hard to believe that some would take God's plan, twist it in their own deceits, usurping power and worship for themselves, corrupting and confusing the very essence of true worship to the One, True, Living God?

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

1. Making the "Living God" the equivalent of inanimate "Nature" is double talk.

What??!!! Nature is hardly "inanimate". Everything is a vibrating mass of growing changing energy, every day, all the time. It sustains us physically. Why we are here, we don't know, but we would not be "Living Humans" if not for "Nature."

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

1. Making the "Living God" the equivalent of inanimate "Nature" is double talk.

What??!!! Nature is hardly "inanimate". Everything is a vibrating mass of growing changing energy, every day, all the time. It sustains us physically. Why we are here, we don't know, but we would not be "Living Humans" if not for "Nature."

Life is not the equivalent of a vibrating mass of growing changing energy. Bells ring and vibrate. Do bells have a willful volition or perception. The Sun vibrates and grows and changes in energy. Does that mean the Sun has the spirit of life along with a will, volition, and perception? Hardly. All matter has energy and energy moves/vibrates but that doesn't make a vibrating molecule of matter analogous to the thoughtful Author, Creator of the Spirit of Life.

Nature is merely a part of creation, not to be worshiped, that supplements our physical life but life is more than the physical and nature does not create or dictate the Spirit of life inside of us.

Nature is not God, that is double talk and leads down a path to death without a relationship with our Father, God.

I might be inclined to reason or even concede to your beliefs but Jesus is risen and that nature does not allow hence I say the Spirit of life is not dictated by nature but by our Father, the Creator.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Very true... the trinity is false doctrine... S&F

Remember you christians...

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:

Originally posted by wildtimes

By all means, a Creator can be a possible cause for what we don't get...but we just don't get it all...YET. Time to get with the new curriculum, and throw out the mess of a handbook and instruction kit that is the Bible, keep what's worthwhile in it, fix what is historically inaccurate, remember that we are ALL CONNECTED, we are "all Gods", and without cooperation, kindness, peaceful cohabitation and altruism, we are DOOMED.

Hello Wild,

Thanks for the kind words. Might consider cautioun on We are All Gods, as that gets into the bad area. Humans can't be god, nor become god. The Human condition strives to know god and mesh will with what nature tell us. For humans the spirit of what is god lies in the mind, which doesn't make us god just one seeking to know about god. Some know the theme of god better than others and Jesus views were some of the better.

Only the corrupt versions of religion move into a human is god. Like most of us, Jesus was looking around at the various theme of god and nature's ways and had the plan to have all the truths on god and religion out in the open so they could make heaven on earth and all be brought closer to the true concepts for god.

That appears the Essene's plan and the reason Jesus was to become the long awaited Messiah/Savior.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If only you could provide the proof that this story existed prior to the birth of Christ. I mean real archeological proof that this exact story was written prior to Christ.

The question may be that if the proofs existed would you read them. There is a lot known of Babylon because they could write and write so well they defined extensive laws 1750 BC. See Stone of Hammurabi theme. Moses only existed in 1250BC, so this is a culture well developed that could write well and the time of Moses and the Exodus folks having to memorize the oral stories to pass them down the timelines.

The archiologists have not only studed the god of Sumaria, as there was a lot of written records they also compared them to Egypt's like gods.

Is their proof this existed long long before Jesus times? Absolutely.

It appears that you want to define your limited world view as being that derived from only one book's limited knowledge. The Bible makes limited Mention of Nimrod, but the rest of written records are richly loaded with the rest of the story.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

2. As for the bible never mentioning the trinity: (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

How shall we refer to you? Satan follower perhaps..

reluctant-messenger.com...

There is only one passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible used by Trinitarians to support their view.

I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV

Editors added the bracketed words in the early fourth century to the Latin Vulgate translation. They are not in the older Greek manuscripts. For this reason, modern translations omit them. Bible commentaries explain that these words were never in the apostle John's manuscript or any existing early copies of it.

Thus, someone speaks the words for the Trickster that appears to want to misled the masses.

reply to post by sacgamer25


What do you want archaeological proof of? That there was an Egyptian goddess who was considered "The Great Virgin" who miraculously gave birth to a son who was considered of the same essence as his God father? Ever read the translations of The Pyramid Texts or the texts at Abydos Temple of Seti I dating from the 13th century B.C.E?

Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

2. As for the bible never mentioning the trinity: (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

How shall we refer to you? Satan follower perhaps..

reluctant-messenger.com...

There is only one passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible used by Trinitarians to support their view.

I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV

Editors added the bracketed words in the early fourth century to the Latin Vulgate translation. They are not in the older Greek manuscripts. For this reason, modern translations omit them. Bible commentaries explain that these words were never in the apostle John's manuscript or any existing early copies of it.

Thus, someone speaks the words for the Trickster that appears to want to misled the masses.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

There is also John 1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Indeed there are a tricksters here who rely on the opinions and assessments of others for what they believe about the Word which they do not study for themselves to find truth but it is not I, nor do I worship Jesus as Father God but as the Son of God giving the Father glory for the Son and for his grace. This is something I think the tricksters intentionally don't care to recognize about Christians.

Nonetheless, you have more than just 1 john 5:7. I've given you two other references but there are plenty more throughout the entire Word for it always speaks to the truth of the three being one and separate all at the same time.

So truly, there is no need to bash Christians for believing in a trinity or to say there is no reference at all in scripture for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being one and being separate. Nevertheless, tricksters don't stop with their deceits so I guess I'll leave you to the unfounded pity party of a bash-fest against Christians.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If only you could provide the proof that this story existed prior to the birth of Christ.

The first mention of Nimrod is in the The Table Of Nations. He is described as: the son of Cush, grandson of Ham, and great-grandson of Noah. And as "a mighty man on the Earth" and "a mighty hunter before God". (Wiki)

I would say, historical speaking, that Nimrod lived thousands of years before Christ lived. There is a great many years between Genesis and Christ.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

There is also John 1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You appear to have lost the typical Christian Trinity theme of Jesus as god and Mary as virgin.

All John 1 tells is the Word was the Communication for god, that the word was truthful for God, and the word explained God. It doesn't have much to do with Jesus is god, except his intention was to make heaven on earth and correctly explain God. Hardly any organized church Trinity Jesus is god concept except for what existed in the Spirit of the Mind of Man, could be explained or communicated with words, and correctly represented true concept for god. It is like the Hindu Universal Soul theme: the Universal Soul, the Thought in the Soul, the Word, or Thought expressed; the Three In One, of a Trinitarian Ecossais

Genesis 3:22 speaks to polytheism with US. It is that for a greater good there is a lesser good and to know the greater one has to pass through the lesser. Tree of life is Jewish, and eating of its fruits helps one to know eternal truth.

Neither of those are really the Christian Trinity issues that make Jesus god or Mary a Virgin. John 1 tells exactly the opposite via the Hindu theme, which proves my point.

www.wrestedscriptures.com...

Genesis 3:22

"And the Lord God said behold the man is become as one of us..."

Problem:

It is pointed out that the verse reads, "God said", yet the plural "us" indicates a plurality. It is argued that this refers to the Trinity.

Solution:
The trinitarian argument on this passage is only an inferred argument. The "us" may very well be a reference to the angels of God.

John Calvin, the Swiss Protestant reformer, had this to say about Genesis 3:22: "Although some Christians deduce from this passage the doctrine of three persons in Deity, the argument, in my apprehension, is not substantial."

"It is no uncommon thing in any language, either ancient or modern, for single persons to speak in the plural; but it was never yet heard of in any age of the world, that more persons than one spoke in the singular."1

See also comments on Genesis 1:26

www.wrestedscriptures.com...

John 1:1-3

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Problem:

This passage is usually the chief reference on which the pre-existence and deity of Christ are argued.

Solution:
Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word "made flesh". (vs. 14). The Greek word "logos" translated "Word" expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.1 Young defines "logos" as "a word, speech, matter, reason."2 In the A.V. "logos" is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., John 17:20) as well as those of God (John 5:38).

"In the beginning was the Word . . . all things were made by him."3 "Logos" does not in itself denote personality. It is personified by the masculine gender in the A.V., The Diaglott avoids confusion by translating the pronouns in the neuter - "through it every thing was done."4 An Old Testament parallel to the personification of logos is the personification of wisdom: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." (Prov. 8:22, 23). In this passage, wisdom is personified as a woman. (vs. 1, 2).

"All things were made by him" - John is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Gen. 1:3. Notice another allusion - John 1:7, 8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the "logos" of God. This is indicated by several passages:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." "For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast." (Psa. 33:6, 9). See also Psa. 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isa. 55:11.

" . . . by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water . . . But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:5, 7).

See also Hebrews 11:3 cf. Jeremiah 10:12, 13.5

Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos - "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9). It was the "logos" which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the "word was made flesh" (John 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the "Word". Christ is called the Word (Rev. 19:13 cf. 1 John 1:1; Luke 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (John 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls.

BTW---thanks for proving my thesis so well.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

but that doesn't make a vibrating molecule of matter analogous to the thoughtful Author, Creator of the Spirit of Life.

Why not?

Nature is merely a part of creation, not to be worshiped, that supplements our physical life but life is more than the physical and nature does not create or dictate the Spirit of life inside of us.

And without Nature? We would merely be dead. I agree that life is more than the physical....
but
BUT,

nature does not create or dictate the Spirit of life inside of us

Nature does create and dictate the Spirit of life inside of us.!!

Nature is not God, that is double talk and leads down a path to death without a relationship with our Father, God.

Erm....no.

I might be inclined to reason or even concede to your beliefs

Cool. Very cool......

but Jesus is risen and that nature does not allow hence I say the Spirit of life is not dictated by nature but by our Father, the Creator.

So, it makes sense to you except for the decision that Jesus is risen.
Right?

reply to post by MagnumOpus

. . . making an metaphorical golden calf . . .

Jesus as an idol?
That's what it sounds like you are implying.
If Jesus is God, then he is not an idol.
And what is all this linkage to the Old Testament?
Do you think the Jews have it right?