Christian Double Talk on Trinity is the root of their being Dead in Christ

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

. . . making an metaphorical golden calf . . .

Jesus as an idol?
That's what it sounds like you are implying.
If Jesus is God, then he is not an idol.
And what is all this linkage to the Old Testament?
Do you think the Jews have it right?

Jesus was not and is not god. Those trying to make Jesus stand for god make false idols.

Both the old testament and the new make huge use of allegory and metaphore in speaking of god, and this confuses most that can only grasp the literal.

Jesus got too complicated in explaining the issues of god in a society that was dumb. He tried much too hard to become the center of a religion to reform the old. Jesus spent most of his words trying to link to the old ways and replace with his new ways with allegory and metaphor words that only confused those back then and things have not gotten better since.

Jesus should have spoken everything in the complete literal sense, but it didn't work out that way and things continue to be a mess.

reply to post by MagnumOpus
It looks like you consider Jesus another fallible person who we should only look at as a way to figure out what his message was if he was able to just properly articulate it.

I see Jesus as reforming the world by adjusting how people look at each other, and not especially interested in reforming the existing religion. Jesus was telling people it was going to go away and why.

People need a visual aid to understand God, and Jesus provided it. He is not standing around to accept admiration in person but stands afar off, directing our thoughts to the Father who will assign angels to deal with them. We know God through Jesus, and God knows us through that same person who stands as the representative for us, people deserving of consideration for his sake.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Most know of the Babylon Trinity story where Nimrod Married his Mother, Semiramis, and liked to play god over building a tower to get close to heaven in the skies. Nimrod became so corrupt at playing god that he was killed and cut into little pieces and scattered, and was represented as going to the Sun in death. His wife/mother could find all his pieces but not the procreating bit, so she makes up a story that the Sun (Nimrod) fertilized her (Semiramis) to produce the Son (Tammus).

Actually, I don't know that story at all. Where did you get it?

Semiramis
The real and historical Shammuramat (in Greek, Semiramis), was the Assyrian queen of Shamshi-Adad V (ruled 824 BC–811 BC), King of Assyria and ruler of the Neo Assyrian Empire, and its regent for four years until her son Adad-nirari III came of age.[1]

For the ancient Greeks[2] Semiramis (pronounced /səˈmɪrəmɪs/) was one of several legendary Assyrian queens. The most recent was Semiramis II for whom the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were built.[3][citation needed]

The legends narrated by Diodorus Siculus, Justin and others from Ctesias of Cnidus make a picture of her and her relationship to King Ninus, himself a mythical king of Assyria, not attested in the Assyrian King List.

So are you getting your story from Diodorus, or Justin, or Ctesias, or perhaps that fellow Hislop?

Protestant minister Alexander Hislop in The Two Babylons (1853)[14] claims that Semiramis was an actual person in ancient Mesopotamia who invented polytheism and, with it, goddess worship.

Hislop believed that Semiramis was a consort of Nimrod, builder of the Bible's Tower of Babel, though Biblical mention of consorts to Nimrod is lacking.
- - Ibid.

This is what I think of Hislop:

as documented in the book review, "THE TWO BABYLONS: A Case Study in Poor Methodology", by Ralph Woodrow, which appeared in volume 22, number 2 (2000) of the Christian Research Journal (Article DC187), Two Babylons Hislop was an exceptionally poor researcher who "picked, chose and mixed" portions of various unrelated myths from many different cultures.
- - Ibid.

So your launching pad is a bizarre cooked-up World-view that all of the people on Earth would have been Yahwistic monotheists if it hadn't been for some one person inventing polytheism?

The real story is that Mary was never taught the Pagan Sun god worship was valid and thus was pure and pious of religious belief and she was chosen for Jesus Mother by the Essene's methods of piety, and in this way translated as Virgin. Mary and Joseph conceived Jesus in the normal fashion, but they had great plans for their son to became a Messiah to change how the issues of god were presented to the world. It was a great plan and one frought with resistance and much ignorance in the world.

So, are you saying that Joseph and Mary were Essenes? What is an Essene? What exactly would their idea of Messiah be?

reply to post by MagnumOpus


From the OP

Those few that see the Jesus theme of "The Way"[2] was about showing the world the ways of Nature to provide medicines like Myrrh and nourishments like bread and wine with Boron nutrition. They gave thanks[1] for Nature's ways as god[3] and the Lord's Prayer with the special word for super foods. Even the Lord's Prayer and the Last Supper theme was of this ultimate purpose of thanks to nature for these foods and the ultimate wish for Heaven on Earth via teaching these simple truths.

[1] to the Father
[2] Logos
[3] World Soul

How is your view different from the quote you give about Plato?

. . . In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
You appear to have lost the typical Christian Trinity theme of Jesus as god and Mary as virgin.

According to your understanding but truly not so. Jesus chose to come down and take on flesh. He is the Word and took on the flesh being made a little lower than the angels.

Jesus is severally called "The Word" throughout scripture hence the reason why the "W" in "Word" is capitalized. It is a proper noun.

Truly, I'm not concerned with the Hindu view of Jesus and his teachings. And again, Jesus made himself lower than the angels, taking on flesh that he might sacrifice himself and take on our sins unto redemption. I know you addressed this but Jesus wasn't created at the moment of conception with Mary. Jesus was and is with the Father from the very beginning.

Jesus claims to have come from the Father when he was saying his goodbyes on his way back to the Father. We could go round and round all day with me putting forth scripture and you copying and pasting someone else's misunderstandings but in totality of scripture and by the testimony of Jesus the Christ of God, I believe .

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Jesus got too complicated in explaining the issues of god in a society that was dumb. He tried much too hard to become the center of a religion to reform the old. Jesus spent most of his words trying to link to the old ways and ...

You aren't making a very good case for the Essene Way. If Jesus was the result of much planning and choosing and education among the Essenes, and he turned out to fail in "his Essene Messiah role", then why are you talking up the Essene Way?

Should we just go out and eat boron or what?

I lived close to borax mines for a few years, am I better off for it?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

but that doesn't make a vibrating molecule of matter analogous to the thoughtful Author, Creator of the Spirit of Life.

Why not?

Why not? Because a electrons surrounding protons and neutrons don't necessarily equal life, consciousness, and/or sentience.

Do you honestly believe every single element of the periodic table to be alive and authoritative in equivalence to the our Creator? I don't.

Nature is merely a part of creation, not to be worshiped, that supplements our physical life but life is more than the physical and nature does not create or dictate the Spirit of life inside of us.

And without Nature? We would merely be dead. I agree that life is more than the physical....
but
BUT,

nature does not create or dictate the Spirit of life inside of us

Nature does create and dictate the Spirit of life inside of us.!!

Our "natural" surroundings facilitate the kind of life our Creator designed it to and then we die. Only a loving Creator can and does offer us eternal life outside this physical world. Your nature god would hold you in the ground for fertilizer with no hope.

Nature is not God, that is double talk and leads down a path to death without a relationship with our Father, God.

Erm....no.

Erm...yes. See my above post about the plan this natural world has for you when you die and compare that with the hope of everlasting life our Father offers us through faith in His Son, Jesus.

There is no hope in making "Nature" an idol of worship. Thank our Father for his many blessings and give due benevolence to the one who hears, and sees, and has answered his people in Word, deed, and truth.

I might be inclined to reason or even concede to your beliefs
but Jesus is risen and that nature does not allow hence I say the Spirit of life is not dictated by nature but by our Father, the Creator.

So, it makes sense to you except for the decision that Jesus is risen.
Right?

edit on 10-5-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

No. Technically worship doesn't make sense at all to me if God is not One. Jesus is how I personally know Him.

Apart from God or even without God, "Nature" would still be definitively inanimate and not worthy of worship or praise. However, were it not for the One True and Living God and were it not for His Son, I probably wouldn't be here reasoning with you about Nature being idol worship.

It is more likely that I would be out with the rest of the world waging war in an effort to show myself and you and all those I could put under my subjection that I am god and fear me bc I'll take your life; I'll impale you on a stick at my dinner table and use you for light by night while I party and get drunk (see Nero).

However, because of Christ and the Father's love and grace I sacrifice my life and natural man for the will of love and peace. You may destroy my body but you cannot destroy my soul therefore I will worship the One with all Power and Glory and Honor. Our hearts are changed from what otherwise we naturally are.......beasts. Without God we are just animals and it really wouldn't matter one way or the other what or who we worshiped.

This post reminds me of the darkness I once lived in and through and I detest it. I want peace and love and those things do not exist in relativism or pagan worship of false idols. Praise God for His goodness and the peace He gives to tormented hearts of the brokenhearted and estranged.

Originally posted by pthena
[Actually, I don't know that story at all. Where did you get it?

It is all around the ancient history for religions, but as far as the Biblical issues the Nimrod is the best example. Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah. Nimrod protested against the Noah god theme with the tower.

Most know the story, perhaps you need to inquire why your preacher didn't get to the fuller story. Plus, read more than the one book that omits things and changes them around so they mislead people. Learn where they placed the misleading stories.

www.jesus-messiah.com...

All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon, have adopted in one form or another a trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz; In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus; within Israel pagan gnosticism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah; In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. But in Old Testament Judaism there was only One God, a numerical ONE. The difference between paganism and God's people has always been the Oneness Monarchian Message reinforced by the First Commandment that prohibits any theory of a plurality.

In our study, we will use a few verses to give a flavor of the One God message, and then give a lot of quotes concerning the trinity message. The true Apostolic Church rejects all the decrees and creeds of the Councils. For this reason we reject the trinity doctrine because it is not in the Bible but in the Creeds of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Our Creed of One God is plainly in the Bible, the Oneness Message.

I'd suggest open the eyes and type in the correct search terms and the story will show up well past a thousand times.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

This post reminds me of the darkness I once lived in and through and I detest it. I want peace and love and those things do not exist in relativism or pagan worship of false idols. Praise God for His goodness and the peace He gives to tormented hearts of the brokenhearted and estranged.

I don't understand people's fear of idols. According to the dictionary, idols are man made objects that are worshipped as a deity, or possessing a deity. You and the OP and others project this fear upon Pagans as if we are making idols.

See my avatar. Did I make that stick? No. Did I make that stone, or even chisel its shape? No. Did I make the sky? No. What is worship? Isn't it profound appreciation for what is?

How can peace and love be the exclusive domain of people who worship what is not discernable? You say that you know God through Jesus. Isn't that because Jesus can be seen? But I've heard that not all people have seen Jesus. So then are they beyond love? That can't be right. People can love people and the World, and want peace, even if they never saw Jesus.

Originally posted by pthena
So your launching pad is a bizarre cooked-up World-view that all of the people on Earth would have been Yahwistic monotheists if it hadn't been for some one person inventing polytheism?


So, are you saying that Joseph and Mary were Essenes? What is an Essene? What exactly would their idea of Messiah be?

I do think the history of religion shows man considered simple themes of the elements as the first ideas for god acting upon the human condition. So, they had fire, wind, water and multiple god themes and idols for symbols for their conjectures are to why things happened.

Moses appears to have just looked at the Babylon Corruption of religion with Trinity gods and the multiple other gods of egypt and said their is only one based upon the common theme of the natural order's intelligent designer. There can be no symbol for this god, only that it exists.


The Essene were the third religion sect in the times of Jesus, they lived inside Jerusalem, at the Qunram area of the Dead Sea and the area of Mt. Carmel. Both Joseph and Mary were of the Essene group connected with Mt. Carmel's Mystery School teachings. Jesus was conceived with the purpose in mind to have a savior to come effect change in the other two Jewish religion elements of the times. Their goal was changing many things from making Heaven Upon the Earth, to acceptance of all men and women as Chose People and showing them the true meaning for The Word, showing them The Way to Heaven on Earth.

Do google searches on the Essene, there is lots out there. If you don't know the Essene's methods and beliefs, then you basically don't know the Jesus theme at all. If your church failed to teach you these areas you need to ask for a refund because they haven't taught you want you needed to know for religion of Jesus makings and his times.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Somebody just made all that stuff up. I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the Hesiod's Theogony, and Ovid's Metamorphoses, and the Old Testament. Just because current day preachers are preaching that Nimrod and Semiramis invented The Trinity doesn't make it true.

What is that quote: "All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon, have adopted in one form or another a trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods."

What? That's just made up. Maybe some Pagan religions did, but not all. What's wrong with a Trinity anyway? Would you prefer that all people be Yahwistic monotheists in some form or another?

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by MagnumOpus

Jesus got too complicated in explaining the issues of god in a society that was dumb. He tried much too hard to become the center of a religion to reform the old. Jesus spent most of his words trying to link to the old ways and ...

You aren't making a very good case for the Essene Way. If Jesus was the result of much planning and choosing and education among the Essenes, and he turned out to fail in "his Essene Messiah role", then why are you talking up the Essene Way?

Should we just go out and eat boron or what?

I lived close to borax mines for a few years, am I better off for it?

The only place in the US where there is Borax is Califiornia and it is this area that supports the best vinyards and wine making for the US and the reason is Boron soil levels. Almost all the successful vinyards and wine areas have Boron in the soil as it is what makes grapes grow well. Israel has the same effects, and it even helps things like Olives and makes the Olive business work.

Everyone that likes good health and strong bones, wants to be free of arthritis in old age, and a bunch of other illnesses that Boron in the food chain prevents needs to make sure they have adequate boron in the diet. Most all the US farming soils are depleted of Boron, except areas of California. Areas that have adequate Boron levels have near zero arthritus issues. US arthitus levels are huge, Isreals near zero.


Learning about Jesus is also the study of the Essene, and the Bible omits this influences on his life and upbringing and learning about the Essene is essential to learning about Jesus methods for using allegorical speech and metaphors in much of what he spoke.

For Instance, Jesus didn't like the issues for the 2 nd temples animal sacrafice and part of his "The Way" teachings was to phrase things in such as way that his teachings would replace the 2nd temple Animal Sacrafice things. So, he speaks in the terms of his flesh and other allegorical terms to begin trending away from the temple's methods and replacement thinking of similar terms. Metaphorocally, the wine of the Last Supper was his blood, and the Bread was his body, and both are aimed at departing from the 2 nd Temple's bad areas the Essene and Jesus were trying to change.

It is very clear he didn't win the big event in Jerusalem and we are still in this mess here 2,000 plus years later because the Christians don't study the Essene, don't know what Metaphor and Allegory are with varuious ways Jesus spoke. Even Genesis is allegory and metaphor, but most Christians believe it is literally true.

So, due to this the Christians are Dead in Christ----------not even having a clue to the correct ways of viewing what was being said in the narratives on Jesus.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Apart from God or even without God, "Nature" would still be definitively inanimate and not worthy of worship or praise.

Whoa.

WOW.

Really? Okay, then, here's a mental challenge for ya: imagine apart OR without God, here you are, and here is Nature providing, rejuvenating, recycling, growing, changing, evolving, surviving......you go 30 days without once taking part in what Nature offers you......nah...you go three minutes without air!....and then come back and tell me that Nature has nothing to do with your survival.
Good luck.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


I don't know much about the historical concept of a trinity, but it is an unavoidable truth that there are three things that make a Man. There is the Father (creator), the Son (the creation), and the Holy Spirit (the seer of the two).

I can see the creator through the works of his creation but partially with the five senses. I know the creator within me through the unseen spirit of life.

Just my few talents worth of course.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Apart from God or even without God, "Nature" would still be definitively inanimate and not worthy of worship or praise.

Tell that to all the folks trying to survive Mt Ararat's super stratovolcanic issue in 2450BC. Hardly inanimate and more like in the regions due to rains and flooding and darkness from clouds they's all be wondering if they could survive from nature.

If the concept of angy god was not invented in the minds of men then, that would be a miracle.


There is a funny movie called Joe and the Volcano that is a spoof of the human sacrafice theme, but in the old days the human condition had the belief that god was something that demanded death and blood to be satistied. So, we see the sacrafice issues in Babylon, the first large recovery city from the flood times. We see the 1st and 2nd temples needs for sacrafices and blood. All of it silly superstition of a primitive mind seeing the destructive issues of what they thought was god in those days.

So, what happens is Jesus and the Essene also see the silly games of sacrifices and want to depart from the stupid ideas of god and Jesus Moves into better ways, and lots of not too successful moves to have his new theme religion to take over in popularity.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

It is all around the ancient history for religions, but as far as the Biblical issues the Nimrod is the best example. Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah. Nimrod protested against the Noah god theme with the tower.

Obviously, the Old Testament makes very little mention of Nimrod. Founder or ruler over many cities, in Mesopotamia. No mention whether he led the building of the mythological tower or opposed it. Other (much later) stories have it as he led, others that he fled from it.

perhaps you need to inquire why your preacher didn't get to the fuller story.

All of the stories seem to come from sources related to Judaism

Therefore it was likely under his direction that the building of Babel and its tower began; in addition to Flavius Josephus, this is also the view found in the Talmud (Chullin 89a, Pesahim 94b, Erubin 53a, Avodah Zarah 53b), and later midrash such as Genesis Rabba.
...
Judaic interpreters as early as Philo and Yochanan ben Zakai (1st century AD) interpreted "a mighty hunter before the Lord" (Heb. : לפני יהוה, lit. "in the face of the Lord") as signifying "in opposition to the Lord"; a similar interpretation is found in Pseudo-Philo, as well as later in Symmachus. Some rabbinic commentators have also connected the name Nimrod with a Hebrew word meaning 'rebel'. In Pseudo-Philo (dated ca. AD 70), Nimrod is made leader of the Hamites; while Joktan as leader of the Semites, and Fenech as leader of the Japhethites, are also associated with the building of the Tower.[5] Versions of this story are again picked up in later works such as Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius (7th century AD).
Nimrod - Traditions and Legends

I guess my preacher wasn't very interested in preaching Jewish legends.

Originally posted by pthena
I guess my preacher wasn't very interested in preaching Jewish legends.

Since the Old Testament and the New Testament are Jewish Legends, guess you all had nothing to talk about in church.

Did you all play poker or just watch TV?

reply to post by MagnumOpus

I'm going to read back through all your posts to see what your bottom line might happen to be. It almost seems that you think people should be part of some Jewish sect.

Jesus was conceived with the purpose in mind to have a savior to come effect change in the other two Jewish religion elements of the times. Their goal was changing many things from making Heaven Upon the Earth, to acceptance of all men and women as Chose People and showing them the true meaning for The Word, showing them The Way to Heaven on Earth.

I've read The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness found at Qumran Cave 1, it describes heaven on Earth as something achieved through wiping out through warfare the "covenant breakers", people not zealously living by the Torah.

And if you aren't advocating for Judaic Yahwistic monotheism, then why should it matter how many gods the Christians have?

I guess the preacher forgot to tell you that Jesus was Essene, a Jewish sect that largely taught him the many issues of religion. They also taught Pythagoras a lot also.


Keep reading, you might eventually have the lights come on

www.strictlygenteel.co.uk...

reply to post by AManYouALL

I don't know much about the historical concept of a trinity, but it is an unavoidable truth that there are three things that make a Man. There is the Father (creator), the Son (the creation), and the Holy Spirit (the seer of the two).

Uhh.... you say there are 3 things that make a man....and you include the "son" (man) as part of what it takes to make a man? How exactly were you a part of making yourself?

I'd say the 3 things that make a man are the Father, Mother and God who oversees the "creation" of the son.

Jesus was a creation of God...directly in the womb of Mary.