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Christian Double Talk on Trinity is the root of their being Dead in Christ

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posted on May, 23 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 





Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Unbelievers are not the children of God depending on what "God" you are refering to, there are two one is the ruler of this Earth and the other is the Creator. Yes they may be his creation but they are not his children, there is a huge difference that Yeshua set down.


The term “Children of God” in the context of those who have come to believe in Jesus…is appropriate and I completely understand that. But there is also a more informal wider context, whereby everyone can be termed “Children of God”, even un-believers. I guess it all depends on the context it’s being spoken in…

As for your, post above, I’m not sure what you mean. Does this have some relation to the “Book of Enoch” and fallen Angels sleeping with the daughters of men, and thus producing offspring, which don’t belong to God?



Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
“Yes they may be his creation but they are not his children, there is a huge difference that Yeshua set down.”


Can you explain what you mean by this?


- JC




posted on May, 23 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


According to ancient jewish lore the original sin was when Eve slept with Lucifer and Cain the first murderer was the result. Which is where this conversation between Yeshua and the pharisees picks up when he tells them they are of their father the devil and they go into the spiel about them not being born of fornication.

John 8:37-47

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

So as we see here, There are those who are born of the Heavenly Father and there are those who are not, they are the children of the Destroyer. Those who mock Christ and his children, are not born of God and this is exactly what he is stating here in this passage.

He also says:

John 10: 11-16

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

He knows his sheep and we know him. Those who do not belong to him do not know him. Not all are his children. His creation yes, but sons of God they are not.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

According to ancient jewish lore the original sin was when Eve slept with Lucifer and Cain the first murderer was the result.

If you mean by that, Kabbalah, then you should not be studying that, to start with.
I would suggest that you try to get help with your apparent obsession with Jewish mysticism.
The religious group you have associated yourself with seems to nurture that sort of thing, so you should start your quest to spiritual freedom by quitting that particular cult.
If you want a more ancient religious belief, you should stick with Christianity, which predates the current forms of Judaism. What you are looking at is a variety that came out of the dark ages.
The old version died with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem back in 70 AD.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Perhaps I would feel more inclined to continue if I could get more than deflections to my questions. I'm sorry to hear you deny the grace of our Father in Jesus. Truly, there is no agreement between our spirits in any part if we don't first agree in Grace.

Maybe another time









edit on 24-5-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

I meant coming to the table without a lick of understanding.

Do you mean being brainwashed in a cult?
Are you going to be disappointed if you go to heaven and see Jesus?
Do you think you deserve better?


No. I mean coming to the table with a spirit of contention rather than a spirit of understanding.

No. I hope with all my heart and soul to see my savior.

No. I am convinced of what I deserve which is why I hold to grace and hope in mercy.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



A "former" minister? I don't know how that's supposed to make your argument legitimate. Nevertheless, consensus doesn't make truth. There are many who would agree with your points. Many more will not. I don't because of my education in psychology as well as my education in reading the bible for myself. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

Do who in the what now??
You are correct, truth is not determined by a show of hands.....
but to not agree BECAUSE of your "education in psychology as well as [your] education in reading the bible for [your]self" is really pushing it.


I don't agree with akra according to my 4 year academic degree (B.S. Psychology from an accredited university) because of the structure of his arguments. Baseless allegations formed on invalid premises according to eisegesis and emotionality are not sound arguments.

I don't agree according to having read the bible for myself because akra admittedly cherry-picks what he likes and disregards what doesn't support his argument. This too is no way to build a sound argument.

Perhaps you understand better now.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


You are clearly not reading what im posting...

How can they be baseless arguements when these passages come directly from the book you claim is Gods word... when read in context with the rest of the chapter its very clear that the God of the OT is not the same as the one Jesus spoke of...

You are only assuming what i've posted is taken out of context without actually reading what these passages say...

And for the umpteenth time... i don't cherry pick, nor do i ignore scripture.

I did cherry pick ( AND admitted to it directly!) for that one post... and again, it was because i don't deal with Paul...

That does not mean i haven't read what he had to say...

There is no problem though... just like most christians you choose to overlook said attrocities and assume because it is "Gods word" it is just and merciful...

Feel free to be blinded by what you've been taught...

Fortunatly i don't have that problem

And no... we don't agree on the "grace" issue...


edit on 24-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 





Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
According to ancient jewish lore the original sin was when Eve slept with Lucifer and Cain the first murderer was the result. Which is where this conversation between Yeshua and the pharisees picks up when he tells them they are of their father the devil and they go into the spiel about them not being born of fornication.





Originally posted by lonewolf19792000



John 8:37-47

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.


So as we see here, There are those who are born of the Heavenly Father and there are those who are not, they are the children of the Destroyer. Those who mock Christ and his children, are not born of God and this is exactly what he is stating here in this passage.



But all can find God and come to know him… right?

Interestingly enough, Jesus describes some of his own disciples in a similar manner, in the following verses…

Luke 9:52-56
As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.


By “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of”, Jesus almost appears to be saying to them, something similar to what he was saying to the Pharisees in John 8:42.

In Luke 9:54, the disciples seem to think that God striking people down, is somehow normal, and what God does etc…but Jesus clearly rebukes them for this…

And in the context of my discussion with HeFrippedMeOff, this is extremely relevant. Because this idea of God killing people, even un-believers, just doesn’t appear, to be something that is in the character of Jesus/God.

If Jesus states “that he did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them”, then the same principles should apply to a God that never changes.

And the other key point, is that if Jesus disciples were of a lineage that is from Satan, then even they can become disciples and “Children of God”.


- JC


edit on 24-5-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:56 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

No. I mean coming to the table with a spirit of contention rather than a spirit of understanding.
It seems like that to you because of the delusion you are under, which makes anyone not bowing down to the false teachings of your cult to be your enemy, anyone who believes in the clear teachings of the Bible, instead of the scrambled up mishmash of splicing bits of verses together to make fake verses that appeal to your ego and makes you move away from God.

No. I hope with all my heart and soul to see my savior.
Be content with that instead of desiring to be a god, which caused the fall in the Bible Eden story.

No. I am convinced of what I deserve which is why I hold to grace and hope in mercy.
What you believe is that you will become a god yourself. Only other gods are allowed at the great council of the gods, to stand before the Ancient of Days. You have been puffed up with pride by the false doctrines of your cult to make you feel like you deserve to be made into a god.
edit on 25-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
For me, saying "predestination" is like saying "free will."


Do you ever give a straight answer…don’t answer that lol


How can “predestination” be like saying "free will?"

If “free will” didn’t exist, then “predestination” would become King!


well you didn't exactly ask a question. It was more of an assertion that we agree but to clarify further, I believe in predestination so far as "grace" has been determined from the beginning. I also believe in "predestination" insomuch that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.

I do not believe all are "predestined" to return to the Father. And this may be where our definitions differ. Although I can hope for such, we can certainly ascertain that if even just one person accuses the Holy Spirit in Jesus of being of satan, and several did and do, then we know blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not something we can say Jesus will pray for of us unto the Father. (Mark 3:29-30)

So, what do you mean by "predestination"?




But this is why the “predestination” issue is so important, because I believe God doesn’t infringe on persons “free will”.


So you're saying unless God allows us all an unlimited amount of time to repent until we do then He is breaking His own law?


If this is what you believe then I must respectfully disagree. My perception is that we exercise the semblance of "free-will" while we yet have breath and with this breath we can either bless or curse our Father but, make no mistake, we all have a "predestined" appointment to die in this flesh and our Father has determined when that time is.

As I said before, every breath is a testament to His longsuffering. Every breath is our chance to receive His grace but we have a predetermined amount of breaths to take. We therefore cannot judge God as being unrighteous simply because He doesn't grant eternal life to the flesh of the sinner in order to allow more time for repentance.




I don’t see God as unrighteous, I just don’t believe that he commanded others, to kill anyone, for any reason, ever!!!…
I believe men abused their power and position, by telling others that God commanded those evil things, when God did no such thing!!!


I certainly agree that in many cases the wills of men are passed off as the directive of our Father. Now, you certainly don't have to accept this next matter but at least in one case, scripture dictates that our Father sent a prophet unto Saul telling him to kill all of a certain idolatrous peoples, even down to the very animal. Saul brings the animals back for sacrifice against God's will and ends up losing his crown for it.

I don't think it can be scripturally disputed that God has commanded some to kill others in times past unless we, like akra, disregard the information in scripture that isn't of use to us but these commands to kill aren't according to unrighteousness nor are they according to authority that God doesn't have every right to exercise.

I find no fault in our Father.



The references were in context to Akragons initial post…and I could be wrong, but I think it was in relation to atrocities committed in Deuteronomy…


Yeah well those "atrocities" were according to akra's personal eisegesis and emotional interpretations, not according to what scripture actually says.





But God doesn’t interfere with a persons “freewill” IMO, for any reason, he only really helps to guide people. Plus God has appointed everyone to live and die, and then face judgment. Which is why I don’t believe he would interfere with his own plans, for any of us.


We cannot assume that God has given every life the same amount of time. If we are to accept that death is predestined and that the amount of life we each have is set by God on an individual basis at His behest, then we cannot say that when death comes sooner than later that our Father is acting against our free-will or against Himself in unrighteousness.

As I mentioned before, according to your own opinion of God's law and will He would be forced to grant eternal life to the flesh of the sinner in the hopes that one day they would repent but it doesn't work like that, not according to scripture.



If God killed everyone who was not a believer in him, then none of them, would have a chance to become a believer or at least change their ways.

Every breath is a chance therefore we cannot rightly say that the chance is not granted.


Remember, God doesn’t change, and we don’t see Jesus going around commanding people to kill un-believers


Like I said, "since grace," we have our commandments but we haven't always lived under this promise.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


You are clearly not reading what im posting...

How can they be baseless arguements when these passages come directly from the book you claim is Gods word...


Like you say, you disregard what isn't of use to you like the fact that rape is not mentioned while the rights of the taken virgins are protected by law.

"Murder" by definition is not what we see happening in scripture regardless of your appeal to emotion on the matter.

Cherry-picking verses, inferring and interpolating data, and then forcing a private interpretation in denial of surrounding context is not how to form a sound argument.

I do not say that your cited verses are baseless, I say your accusations and arguments according to eisegesis and logical fallacies are Baseless.



when read in context with the rest of the chapter its very clear that the God of the OT is not the same as the one Jesus spoke of...


I disagree not only because you admittedly disregard what isn't of use to you, but also according to the fact that I've read it all for myself and find our Father to be One and the Same yesterday, today, and forever. Right now we live under the promise of "Grace." In times before, mankind lived under the promise of the "Law." Now, since we don't agree on "grace" there will obviously be no understanding between us on any part thereafter.


You are only assuming what i've posted is taken out of context without actually reading what these passages say...


really? And yet you deny the fact that rape isn't actually commanded on any part and that laws were in place to protect the taken virgins.

You don't define "murder" while refusing the Godhead His rightful authority.

And you deny Jesus for the sake of salvation by works against the very words of Jesus as was cited previously and not addressed by you.

What more really needs be said?




And for the umpteenth time... i don't cherry pick, nor do i ignore scripture.


Says Akragon, "I admitted directly to cherry picking those verses... What happened to the forgiveness which asked for when said cherry picking happened?"

Says Akragon, "I do not ignore scripture... i simply have no use for most of what is found within the bible... "

Let everyone here reading this see and know.


I did cherry pick ( AND admitted to it directly!) for that one post... and again, it was because i don't deal with Paul...

Do you not deal with Moses, or David, or Jesus either?

Do you not yet cherry-pick according to the charge of "rape," the charge of "all are His children," or the charge of "salvation according to works" (which by the way no reference has been given)?


That does not mean i haven't read what he had to say...

According to your own words, does the above not mean you deny them all because you find no use for them?


There is no problem though... just like most christians you choose to overlook said attrocities and assume because it is "Gods word" it is just and merciful...


Said atrocities are according to you, your eisegesis, and personal emotional turmoil, not according to how and what scripture actually reads.

My best hopes for you, friend.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

No. I mean coming to the table with a spirit of contention rather than a spirit of understanding.
It seems like that to you because of the delusion you are under, which makes anyone not bowing down to the false teachings of your cult to be your enemy, anyone who believes in the clear teachings of the Bible, instead of the scrambled up mishmash of splicing bits of verses together to make fake verses that appeal to your ego and makes you move away from God.


You said "enemy," not me. And you are the one being contentious about my personal desire to stand before our Father in the boldness of His grace and mercy and love found in Jesus.

I'm not sure how that hope separates me from Jesus and our Father but i guess if you don't like it you don't have to accept it.




No. I hope with all my heart and soul to see my savior.


Be content with that instead of desiring to be a god, which caused the fall in the Bible Eden story.

Yes sir.



No. I am convinced of what I deserve which is why I hold to grace and hope in mercy.
What you believe is that you will become a god yourself. Only other gods are allowed at the great council of the gods, to stand before the Ancient of Days. You have been puffed up with pride by the false doctrines of your cult to make you feel like you deserve to be made into a god.
edit on 25-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I'm not sure why you presume to tell me what I believe as if that makes it true. I'm really not concerned with the dogma of your cult or the dogma of what you assign to the body of Christ. However, I do hope to see our Father just as Moses longed to see His face. I long to be hugged and kissed and rejoiced over like a shepherd rejoices over the one little lost lamb that is found. I hope to live and be with Him and our Lord Jesus forever. I Iong to sit with Jesus at the marriage feast and serve Him in the bride of Christ. Myself being a god has no bearing on my heart and is not my desire. Our Father alone is God and I'm overjoyed to contentment with that.

We don't all have the same measure of faith, dewby. Nevertheless, Jesus is the way and in him do I place all my hope and trust.

Take it or leave it, I'm only a sower of seeds of hope.

Don't like it? Not my problem.

edit on 25-5-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

I do hope to see our Father just as Moses longed to see His face.

Not sure what verse you may be referring to about Moses.
To me, you are back where the disciples were in the Gospel of John, before they understood Jesus, asking to be shown the Father. Jesus told them that from now on, you have seen the Father. What this means is that Jesus is the complete representative of God, and all the god we will ever see or need, as far as being with in person.
You really have no basis to believe otherwise, other than what your cult teaches you. As for me, I do not take instructions from a cult, and use real verses from the Bible, and not manufactured ones that your cult loves to make so much.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

I do hope to see our Father just as Moses longed to see His face.

Not sure what verse you may be referring to about Moses.


Exodus 33: 18-20: "Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”


To me, you are back where the disciples were in the Gospel of John, before they understood Jesus, asking to be shown the Father. Jesus told them that from now on, you have seen the Father. What this means is that Jesus is the complete representative of God, and all the god we will ever see or need, as far as being with in person.



It is not in the flesh I presume to see or stand before the Father so do not be dismayed for me. We know from scripture that we must shed this corruptible and put on the incorruptible. We know not what we shall be but we know we shall be changed in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye and that we shall be like Him.

Thank you for your concern though.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


Moses asked to see someone's glory.
Even an angel's full glory would be too much to look upon.

We will be like Jesus, as in having an incorruptible body.
That does not mean we are gods.
Jesus was god by virtue of being one before being born as a man.
He set aside his powers but remained an incarnate god because he was still the same person as he was. He was not a man who underwent an apotheosis to become a god.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
So, what do you mean by "predestination"?



Well first of all, I don’t accept any notion of “predestination” in terms of people coming to find God through Jesus. But to answer your question, “predestination” in my view, is where certain specific people are chosen, to come to know the Father through Jesus, and others are somehow excluded, from any chance, of that happening, which I disagree with btw.

I should just add though, that I do believe that there is ”predestination”, in terms of some people being called by God, to do a specific task, that God has chosen for them, ahead of time. But just to reiterate, I don’t believe in “predestination” whereby, some people can’t find Jesus, and others can etc…I believe it’s a freewill choice, that is open to everyone.




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I certainly agree that in many cases the wills of men are passed off as the directive of our Father. Now, you certainly don't have to accept this next matter but at least in one case, scripture dictates that our Father sent a prophet unto Saul telling him to kill all of a certain idolatrous peoples, even down to the very animal. Saul brings the animals back for sacrifice against God's will and ends up losing his crown for it.

I don't think it can be scripturally disputed that God has commanded some to kill others in times past unless we, like akra, disregard the information in scripture that isn't of use to us but these commands to kill aren't according to unrighteousness nor are they according to authority that God doesn't have every right to exercise.

I find no fault in our Father.



The thing that I worry about, in many of those verses, throughout the OT, is that we know that there are Angels of Satan, and Angels of God, and most of the time, I just don’t think, men are always in the best position, to distinguish between the two…But when it comes to Jesus words, I know that I can’t go wrong…




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
We cannot assume that God has given every life the same amount of time.


I’m not assuming or saying that…I’m saying that God gives everyman life and a time to live out that life, unhindered. Just like God aloud men to do, throughout Genesis. The only person who was ever a murderer from the beginning, was the Father of lies himself…



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
If we are to accept that death is predestined and that the amount of life we each have is set by God on an individual basis at His behest, then we cannot say that when death comes sooner than later that our Father is acting against our free-will or against Himself in unrighteousness.


But God would be acting against others “freewill”, if he had commanded men to kill “others”. Those “others” lives, would be unfairly cut short. And before you say God is righteous, and can kill who ever he likes… God is only righteous, in his judgments, at the end of a persons life, and not by ending a persons life, by force.

God did not act against the men who killed those others, because he knows, they will be judged for it. The only reason God allowed it, is because he does not infringed on a persons life/freewill, and judgment by Gods own standards, only comes at the end of persons life. It does not involve God interfering with that process.

If God does interfere with peoples “free will”, then how much further would he have intervened, in stopping those men from killing others? Or doing all manner of other evil things?

And another question that gets raised here is, how is God going to judge those men, who you think, he commanded, to kill others? And why would God even need others to kill for him? Assuming of course, that it’s even in Gods nature, to do that.

The key point being, that it doesn’t matter how evil those men who were slaughtered, might have been, because their judgment is appointed at the end of their lives, not during it. And according to God/Jesus, they have a right to live and then be judged, after they die. And God specifically states in the Ten commandments “thou shalt not kill”




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
As I mentioned before, according to your own opinion of God's law and will He would be forced to grant eternal life to the flesh of the sinner in the hopes that one day they would repent but it doesn't work like that, not according to scripture.


I’m not talking about God granting eternal life to people. I’m talking about people having the right to live out their evil, or good lives, and only then being judged accordingly, after death. And not infringing on how that death comes about, by speeding up the process etc…i.e. by killing people…

Continued...



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


Continued…



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Every breath is a chance therefore we cannot rightly say that the chance is not granted.


Yes, I agree, every breath is a chance, which is why I don’t believe that God takes that away chance, from anyone, for any reason, or commands it of others…



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Like I said, "since grace," we have our commandments but we haven't always lived under this promise.


I’m not sure if you saw my reply to lonewolf, buts it’s pretty much relevant to what we are discussing here…

Here’s part of what I saying in that post…

I brought up the following verse…


Luke 9:52-56
As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.

Now Jesus appears to be describing some of his own disciples, in a similar manner, as he does the Pharisees in the verse John 8:42. By hinting towards this idea that their spirits are not of God. And I base this, simply on Jesus reply, in context to what the disciples had suggested,…which is very interesting…

And the other key point, is that if their spirits are not of God, then Jesus still considers them worthy of becoming and being “Children of God”. Which is in stark contrast, to a God (assuming that it’s God in the first place) that wants to destroy, and command others to kill those, who are apparently not “Children of God” i.e. un-believers.


And…

In Luke 9:54, the disciples seem to think that God striking people down, is somehow normal, and what God does etc…but Jesus clearly rebukes them for this…and in doing so, Jesus is really going against this idea of a wrathful God by suggesting that those types of things, are not of the “Spirit of God.”

And regardless of whether where now under grace or pre-grace, if Jesus states, “that he did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them”, then the same principles should apply, to a God that never changes!


- JC


edit on 25-5-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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And the other key point, is that if Jesus disciples were of a lineage that is from Satan, then even they can become disciples and “Children of God”.


You just answered your own question. Yeshua came to redeem the fallen, the lost sheep of Israel. It is to they he came and the true messianic jewish/judeo-christian movement was born from it.

In order for the spawn of Satan to be redeemed they have to be remade in our God Yeshua's image. What gives you life is your God. Before Yeshua we are dead. When he said "I AM the Resurrection" this is what he was saying.

There was something...else pretending to be him and this is what he was trying to tell the jews during his time here, they were too blind to hear it or see him for who he is. This is what he is saying in Jeremiah 7, the religious jews were following after their own desires and they turned the first Church into a religion of men and then the Catholics turned and followed the same path to the same Queen of Heaven and they, like the jews before them are blind to it and the jews have begun to do those same burnt offerings and sacrifices they did in ancient days passed and you know what follows after that if yoou read this:

Jeremiah 7: 18

18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jeremiah 7: 21-23

21 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. 22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’

The Queen of Heaven has many names, Ishtar (Easter), Inanna, Semiramis, Isis, Diana, Ashtoreth, Asherah, Astarte...and Catholic Mary as her latest incarnation. Allah is also connected to her. Ishtar is the sungoddess and Allah is her husband the moongod also known as Sin (Sumerian), Hu'bal (Arabic/Sabean), Yerah (Canaanite), Kusuh (Ugaritic) and Nannar (Chaldean, Ur).

In fact Sungoddess and Moongod worship has always been a mainstay of these Mystery Babylon religions. In the picture below we see an ancient mural depicting the symbols of the sungoddess and moongod together (sexes may be interchangeable).



Just like we see in the symbol for Islam, the crescent moon and star (suns are stars) often depicted in their minarettes like the one below. Notice how the minarette of the crescent moon is set precisely to where it will catch the sun at dusk? That is no accident
.



Here's another symbol of Islam, see the moon and the star (sun)?



But oh wait look, it's even in Roman Catholicism. Below is a pic of Peter Erdo's (Second youngest Cardinal in line of succession to the Papacy and also thought to be the "Peter the Roman" of the St. Malachy prophecy) coat of arms.



Do you see the sun and the moon above catholic "Marys" head?

Lets see what God has to say about this activity.

Moon worship: Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kngs. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5

Sun worship: Leviticus 26:30 2 Chronicles 14:5; 2 Chronicles 34:4, 7; Isaiah 17:8; Isaiah 27:9 Ezekiel 6:4, 6, and Ezekiel 8:16

They really need to stop doing that stuff, this rabbit hole goes down so deep that neither Catholics nor Muslim even know what theyre doing anymore even though they deny knowledge of this.

This leads me to my ultimate conclusion of, believe in Christ, keep his commandments, beyond that be an Atheist for salvation.

Children of Satan can be redeemed, but they have to recognize their wrongs and choose to no longer do them (repent) and then believe in Christ and keep his commandments. He is the King of Kings, he is the model we all should strive to live by even if we fail at times, the important thing is to keep striving and if Yeshua wouldn't do it, neither should we.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


All I hear is you judging the Father. I hear you saying over and over that you should be the one who determines the length of life, not God. I however don't see or read scripture that way.

I also hear you saying that there is no such thing as a new and old promise because God doesn't change. I disagree with this assessment too.

I don't find it necessary for you to agree with me that God has the right and scripturally does judge but seriously, there is a difference between the time of law and the time of grace.

For there to be a shift into judgement under grace there must have beforehand existed the antithesis that which is judgment under the law and by the law. Duration of life is not a factor in this equation. Instead of proving a changing God, the two actually relate the fullness of our God as loving Father and as defender. It is written, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

You see, He has not changed. His wrath is coming but He will have compassion on who He will have compassion and vengeance upon whom He will have vengeance.

You shed tears before those who laugh at your compassion and I find your compassion for them to be honorable and lovely but do not cast your pearls before swine. We can love them, and be examples sowing seeds of hope, but our Lord gives the rain and the sunshine and the increase. He hardens the hearts of kings and makes flesh the hearts of the stoney. Nevertheless, He gives the increase and all is at His discretion and we are no people to judge Him.


Blessings and Peace to you, brother.

edit on 25-5-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
All I hear is you judging the Father.


Have you not read a single reply I’ve made to you?

How can I be judging the Father, when I don’t even believe that he commanded people to kill un-believers?



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I hear you saying over and over that you should be the one who determines the length of life, not God.


This has nothing to do with me, determining anything. I’m just going by Jesus own standards, and then comparing the two, to God supposedly commanding people to kill un-believers.



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I also hear you saying that there is no such thing as a new and old promise because God doesn't change. I disagree with this assessment too.


Think about this…

People were coming to believe in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit, long before any new and old promises were ever invented, or even thought about.

People were coming to believe in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit, long before any of the Gospel accounts were put into a chronological format.

People were coming to believe in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit, long before any of the chronolgicalised books were even added, to a book, that today, we call the Old Testament.



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I don't find it necessary for you to agree with me that God has the right and scripturally does judge but seriously, there is a difference between the time of law and the time of grace.


The time of the Law, and the time of grace, may be different in how people come to God, but the judgment of God is still the same under both.

You seem to be blind to the fact that God had a compete long term strategy, and new in advance what he was going to do. And you don’t seem to be able to see, that if that’s the case, then Gods character, shouldn’t be changing anywhere along the line.



Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
For there to be a shift into judgement under grace there must have beforehand existed the antithesis that which is judgment under the law and by the law.


In your opinion, what judgment for the unrighteous, has changed under grace,' that wasn’t there before it came along i.e. under the time of the Law? And what bearing does this have, on God apparently commanding people, to kill un-believers?




Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
You shed tears before those who laugh at your compassion and I find your compassion for them to be honorable and lovely but do not cast your pearls before swine.


Yes I have compassion, because I agree with Jesus himself, as you can see from that verse in Luke 9 below…

Luke 9:54-55
When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."


Peace be with you…


- JC


edit on 25-5-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



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