If not OWS then what?

I know there is a lot of heavy debate about the legitimacy of the OWS movement. Is it necessary? Will it accomplish anything? I think so far it has accomplished the following (among other things):

-It has forced open minded people to look at the system and question it a little bit.
-It has forced politicians to address the issues of student debt and bad loan practices.
-It has given anarchists an avenue to express themselves.
-It has brought people together from many walks of life to unite for a common cause.
-It has given people that are pro-system even more reason to hate those opposed to it, so it that sense it has separated people even more.

So all in all it has been a mixed bag of results. I for one support it as long as it remains peaceful, which has not always been the case. Do I think it's perfect? Hell no. But I do think it important for people to unite against corruption.

So it's obvious anyone with half a brain can see that our system (and I'm talking the whole system - economic, political, social, moral - because it's all connected) is flawed. So for everyone vehemently opposed to OWS, I ask what else would you suggest be done? Protest is usually a result of people being fed up with not having their concerns heard. So it's basically a last resort (with the exception of a full fledged revolution). So what can be done if not OWS?

***And please, lets keep the discussion civil. These discussions tend to spiral out of control very quickly. Put your egos aside and please respond respectfully.

I agree with you my friend, i don't see how people here can rip up the OWS movement for doing something. "Oh but george soros is funding them"

How about making citizen arrests on everyone in charge of the corrupt corporations and political offices? Take that "mob" of people and, with evidence in hand, get affidavits to make citizens arrests on those people.

Without evidence to warrant arrests, or proof of illegal activity, there isn't much that can be done short of sitting in parks banging drums and repeating chants, all of which accomplish nothing in terms of "changing the system."

- Round up evidence
- Present the evidence
- Acquire arrest warrants
- Arrest the corporate elite/politicians involved
- Have common law trials

That's a good start. Beats endless marches and sit ins.

I think 'occupy', as a larger 'movement' is likely a controlled pressure-valve of sorts.It helps ensure the various activist communities have an outlet for their frustration, without doing anything that causes real, fundamental change. It is made up of sincere individuals, I don;t doubt that. But it is most likely being controlled and manipulated by several, often competing 'sides' which seek to harness the energy for their own means.

Originally posted by AzureSky
Ignorance and fear. Its always about ignorance and fear, thats what the basis of most of the world is now.

So true, my friend so true. So if this the first step we have taken to stand against ignorance and fear, how is that a bad thing? Even if it isn't well organized or some of the people haven't showered in a month. Why do those little details matter when the core foundation of the movement is that we the people are fed up with being exploited?


***Apparently I messed up quoting you lol, my bad.

edit on 2-5-2012 by seberhar because: I messed up the quote

Originally posted by stanguilles7
I think 'occupy', as a larger 'movement' is likely a controlled pressure-valve of sorts.It helps ensure the various activist communities have an outlet for their frustration, without doing anything that causes real, fundamental change. It is made up of sincere individuals, I don;t doubt that. But it is most likely being controlled and manipulated by several, often competing 'sides' which seek to harness the energy for their own means.

I have considered that as well. But wouldn't their goal be to keep people blind rather than wake people up? Because the movement has woken many people up.

reply to post by JibbyJedi


That sounds great, for sure. But I doubt it would actually work. Citizens arrest is such a rare thing and they usually only work on lowly poor criminals. I just couldn't see if work on the rich. Then again, it hasn't been attempted so we wouldn't know for sure. I like the thought of it though

It's a worthy cause, no doubt as to that...

They are, IMHO, a tad misguided, but their hearts are in the right place. To retrieve the power that we've lost, OWS and the rest of us, need to be involved politically, not rioting. Rioting plays right into the hands of those who control the abilities to clear the streets. The politicians, and their henchmen, the cops. Now not all cops are going to play along, but enough will.

As with the tea party, OWS needs to get involved politically. Get into the halls of power where you can actually make change happen. It's not going to happen with riots, and other assorted nonsense, because they're outgunned, and out propagandized.

Quiet and peaceful movements into positions of power is what is required here. Or...

Absolutely violent revolution. Half ass, ain't gonna cut it. There is no middle ground here people. Half ass is why we are where we are.

I'll sit here on the fence until I hear some dialog about freedom, small government, individuality, libertarianism and justice. Where is the movement in which the primary task is to restore the Constitution and the American Republic?

Hitch your wagon to the government fairness train and see where that gets you. There is a difference between government treating people equally and government attempting to make people equal. Common sense tells me we will never see these problems go away by ceding even more power to a centralized government which is the root of the problem in the first place.

I fully 100% support OWS in their first amendment right to protest. 100%. I'm proud of the movement if only for the reason that they realize the system is broken and have the guts to stand up for something. But the self serving busybodies solution to the problem is always as bad as or worse than the problem. When we say "let the government fix it" all it does is use our money and its power to further manipulate the system to favor this group or that group, which is exactly the problem we have right now.

Originally posted by seagull
It's a worthy cause, no doubt as to that...

They are, IMHO, a tad misguided, but their hearts are in the right place. To retrieve the power that we've lost, OWS and the rest of us, need to be involved politically, not rioting. Rioting plays right into the hands of those who control the abilities to clear the streets.

Hold on... the 'rioters' are a small number compared to the peaceful demonstrators, and are often in no way actually involved with OWS, but just so-called 'anarchists' who use large gatherings as an excuse to smash things.

Dont conflate that with the larger movement.

reply to post by seagull


I agree, the political route is more direct. I have a feeling many of the OWS supporters probably support Ron Paul. Is that fair to assume? He's the only candidate who's view are inline with their movement. I support Dr. Paul wholeheartedly, but even with the most enthusiastic supporters, he most likely won't win the nomination.

But at the same time, if the politicians are puppets to lobbyists on wall street, wouldn't it make sense to cut out the middle man and go straight to the root of the problem? This is what they are trying to do. Political change has been attempted and it fails every time. The system is too engrained to allow a new type of politician. So if you can't change the politician, let the people controlling them know that it's unfair.

It doesn't make sense. You cannot control a mass. There is nothing that the government/banks/corps can do, to make people happy. The system does not work like that. The only reason the 'west' have had it so good is because we were on the receiving end of the exploits of the western governments, corps, and banks.

Go talk to some of the poor in Ecuador. Talk to them about the exploits of US corporations in their country. Talk to them about the infrastructure US corporations built and expect the poor to pay for.

This is just catching up to us, they have exploited people for far too long. They want more, so now there are multi-millions of people jobless and homeless.

All that is a required is a change in world view. No more of this "We are better than you" crap. We need to acknowledge that everyone on this planet is equal, we are all the same family. When this crap collapses, im throwing a huge going away party to the elite.

Note: I think OWS stays out of politics because the overwhelming majority of them know that the political system is bunk, and doesnt work, its fake and will never change a thing.

Originally posted by seberhar


I have considered that as well. But wouldn't their goal be to keep people blind rather than wake people up? Because the movement has woken many people up.

Has it, though? I'm not entirely convinced, It has made some people slightly more focused in their general angst, but only a little. Because, as others have pointed out, it doesnt put enough focus on POLICY, it ends up keeping people as in the dark as they already were, just ore out of breath. This will likely lead to disillusionment and LESS organizing as time moves on.

reply to post by seberhar


As seagull said - either complete government intrusion is needed, which is a fat chance in hell, or complete revolution.

I choose the latter as the first has been tried and true to ill effect for many, many decades. It just does not seem to hold any ground or serve any response.

As was said, OWS contains people who are motivated to make changes, but are they motivated enough? Are they actually willing to sacrifice for change, or are they content with their current lifestyles and want to feel like their making an impact through modern day public tent parties. They are misguided and don't have a strong uniform message, but rather many smaller messages.

reply to post by stanguilles7


I know that. But as with most things in a politicized environment...perception is all. That is the perception that is being pushed by the opponents of OWS.

The only way you can combat that is through absolute peacefulness. You can not allow that small number of anarchists/agent provocateur/idiots to color your movement. If you do, you're going to lose. It's that simple.

Originally posted by seagull
You can not allow that small number of anarchists/agent provocateur/idiots to color your movement. If you do, you're going to lose. It's that simple.

Sure. But the reality is, there is little to no way to stop them. A regular person cant detain a 'rioter' or they will be beaten by other rioters, and the cops will stand by and watch. It happens all the time.

You cant blame the larger group for the actions of these idiots, especially when these idiots obviously get a free pass from the cops (who are too busy beating up old ladies)

There's not going to be any revolution by OWS, camo wearing militias, disgruntled military, macho gun owners or anyone else.

Americans are so comfortable except for a few ATS malcontents, and those listed above, that nothing will change until the system collapses. Then it won't be a revolution but anarchy, chaos and a war against people of color.

And I don't think the system will collapse. It's built on consumerism and folks need to consume to live, even on a basic subsistence level.

Bread and circus worked in Rome and it's working in America.

Good points.
May I share?
Anon/OWS CISPA picketing-non violent- protests planned
See the info:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by stanguilles7


You've a valid point. The only thing really that can be done, is to disown them. In no uncertain terms. The people on the fence must know that beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are against violence of any sort. Particularly against property and authority.

Your's isn't going to be an easy row to hoe. You are going up against established power bases that don't want to give up that power, and will resort to whatever means they think they can get away with to keep that base.

Your movement, even more so than the TeaParty, must be lily white innocent. ...and be willing to cut lose anyone, or any group that damages that. It's not fair, but what in politics is fair?

If you succeed in capturing the imagination of those fence sitters (me), you'll go along ways towards winning your fight.

We do not propose to say that there shall be no rich men. We do not ask to divide the wealth. We only propose that, when one man gets more than he and his children and children's children can spend or use in their lifetimes, that then we shall say that such person has his share. That means that a few million dollars is the limit to what any one man can own."

Huey Long 1934

We shall have to say right here and now that the hand of imperial finance shall not go farther into its strangulation of the American people and that the hand of imperialistic banking control shall be decentralized instead of centralized in America."

Huey Long 1933

They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side, but no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."

Huey Long 1932



Some original thinking would be nice instead of recycling the same failed liberal agenda that has been pushed in this country since the Days of Roosevelt and Long and even before their times.

The biggest obstacle to the liberal Agenda is has and always will be Wall Street,Banks and Corporations pretty much things that can not exist in their twisted socialist,marxist,communist utopian dreams.

Ows different day different year same rap as the progressive agenda.