Quantum Experiments, Proof that Human Consciousness influences Particles

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

The fact that I don't have a physics degree is actually an advantage in some part, because I'm not held back by paradigm bias.

Amen to that....

reply to post by masterp


You haven't got a clue have you. The wich path info is erased AFTER the particles have already hit the screen when the wich path info was still available.

Then the info is erased, but the pattern associated with the info being known should be on the screen, because it is erased afterward.

Yet when the experimenter looks, it shows an interference pattern. This is impossible. The only explanation is that the pattern on the screen somehow adapts to the experimenter not being able to determine the wich path info, even though at the time the particles hit the screen it was available.

You can argue with me but these are the peer reviewed findings of the experiment.

The delayed choice quantum eraser, allows the decision whether to measure or destroy the "which path" information to be delayed until after the entangled particle partner (the one going through the slits) has either interfered with itself or not. Doing so appears to have the bizarre effect of causing the outcome of an event after the event has already occurred. In other words, something that happens at time t apparently reaches back to some time t - 1 and acts as a determining causal factor at that earlier time.

However, the interference pattern can only be seen retroactively once the idler photons have already been detected and the experimenter has obtained information about them, with the interference pattern being seen when the experimenter looks at particular subsets of signal photons that were matched with idlers that went to particular detectors.

Why do you think they included the role of the experimenter?

It is time for you to review your position and understanding on this.

Also, you are still to explain how the act of erasing makes the pattern change from your understanding. Just saying it does is not science, and not helpfull.

reply to post by Ilyich

so I would think something as radical as an electron would, could and should interfere with itself, and it is not in multiple places at the same time, but rather moving in many places at an unimaginable speed trying to find somewhere it will be stable, and balanced...

The electron IS in more than one place at one time. This is proven by the interference pattern. If the electron were merely moving very quickly it wouldn't cause an interference pattern. However, we need not debate this, because this is scientific fact, it goes to the core of quantum mechanics. Super position and wave-particle duality are some of the first things you learn when studying quantum mechanics. Now onto more important things.

reply to post by epsilon69

The act of measuring a particle with a photon imparts the photon with the particles information which comes back to the measuring device and is then transferred onto electrons which move through the device and allow an image to appear on the screen

Wrong. They are not "measuring a particle with a photon"... they are "measuring the photon to get information about the particle". This is a crucial difference. Most skeptics would claim that measuring the electron interferes with it because the photons used to measure the electron interfere with the electron. However, this line of reasoning is absurd because a camera does not shoot photons, it simply measures photons which are already there. Whether you stick a camera next to the slits or not, that electron is still going to be affected by photons. Photons are already buzzing about all over the place. The process of measuring some of those photons does not change the experiment at all imo, it simply gathers information about the experiment, information which was always there. So even without this new experiment presented by the OP (which is amazing btw), it's still possible to prove the electron was affected by the observer.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

The delayed choice quantum eraser, allows the decision whether to measure or destroy the "which path" information to be delayed until after the entangled particle partner (the one going through the slits) has either interfered with itself or not. Doing so appears to have the bizarre effect of causing the outcome of an event after the event has already occurred. In other words, something that happens at time t apparently reaches back to some time t - 1 and acts as a determining causal factor at that earlier time.

This is absolutely amazing imo. The fact that erasing the information after the experiment can change something which happened in the past is mind blowing. I mean how far can this concept be extended. What if the information was kept for years and then deleted? Would the experiment be able to "know" the information was going to be deleted? If so, that has some staggering implications. I need to think harder about this and get back to this thread with some of my thoughts. This is astonishing. Thanks for sharing.

-So when they don't measure there is an interference pattern.

-When they do measure the interference pattern collapses.

-When they measure but immediately erase the info, the interference pattern is restored.

This proves that the physical act of measuring, the Observer Effect, is not responsible for collapsing the interference pattern.

The measuring device has interacted with the particle, yet the interference pattern remains if the info is erased.

The conclusion is again inescapable, the availability of the info is what collapses the pattern, or not.

I see no other reason for that besides it having a direct relation with the consciousness of the experimenter. Why else would it matter if the info is available?

I highlighted in the above quote the part that is erroneous in your train of thought.

There is actually no logical relationship that leads from "the availability of the info is what collapses the pattern" o "it matters because conscious entities are present".

The proposition that this happens because conscious entities are present is entirely ad hoc. There is nothing in the experiment's description that links its outcome to the presence of conscious entities.

reply to post by masterp


Sidestepping, again, answer my above post. i have already shown that your understanding of the exp. is not sufficient, anything you say from there is of no value. Just repeating your preconceived notions.

It is not impossible at all. In the quantum world, causality can be violated.

Correct, and the only possible explanation is consciousness. Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

You haven't got a clue have you. The wich path info is erased AFTER the particles have already hit the screen when the wich path info was still available.

Then the info is erased, but the pattern associated with the info being known should be on the screen, because it is erased afterward.

Yet when the experimenter looks, it shows an interference pattern. This is impossible.

It is not impossible at all. In the quantum world, causality can be violated. The theory of relativity has not yet been linked to quantum physics.

The presence of an experimenter is irrelevant. It is the properties of the quantum world that do this.

A new experiment may prove that it is possible to send information back in time:

science.slashdot.org...

In this experiment, the outcome of an event is present before its cause.

Consciousness has nothing to do with it (because consciousness actually does not exist, it is simply the thought processes of the brain).

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

Sidestepping, again, answer my above post.

I am not sidestepping anything. You reached a conclusion by a logical jump.

reply to post by masterp

because consciousness actually does not exist

now that's a statement...because you can not measure it...right?

reply to post by masterp


I reached a conclusion by applying the not only logical, but ONLY explanation there is.

I'm sorry it is in conflict with what you have always thought.

Like I said, you have made at least two posts that show that you don't actually comprehend the results of these experiments.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


In his case I would say he's spot on.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

Correct, and the only possible explanation is consciousness. Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

edit on 25-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)

I really do not get how do you go from "quantum physics is responsible" to "it is all done for consciousness". Can you explain the logical path from one to the other? why should it be done for consciousness?

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

I reached a conclusion by applying the not only logical, but ONLY explanation there is.

I'm sorry it is in conflict with what you have always thought.

Like I said, you have made at least two posts that show that you don't actually comprehend the results of these experiments.

edit on 25-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)

What explanation? you say "X is the reason for Y" without actually linking the two.

reply to post by masterp

There is nothing in the experiment's description that links its outcome to the presence of conscious entities.

Ok, think about this for a moment. What if the information were locked away forever, and no one ever observed it - that is the same as if the information was deleted because no one gets to observe it. According to this experiment, there would be an interference pattern if that were the case. However, if the information is actually observed, the interference pattern disappears. So now explain how the mere act of observing the data AFTER the experiment is finished can logically change anything unless that act of observation is directly linked to the outcome of the experiment. Even when that data is locked away and never observed, there is an interference pattern... so what does observing that information have to do with anything unless the observer plays a crucial role? The ONLY logical conclusion is that when the information is known by a conscious observer, it changes the behavior of the quantum world. There is no way around it, and if you believe there is a way around it I would like you to explain your theory in full detail.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

This is absolutely amazing imo. The fact that erasing the information after the experiment can change something which happened in the past is mind blowing. I mean how far can this concept be extended. What if the information was kept for years and then deleted? Would the experiment be able to "know" the information was going to be deleted? If so, that has some staggering implications. I need to think harder about this and get back to this thread with some of my thoughts. This is astonishing. Thanks for sharing.

Here is some more info about that.

en.wikipedia.org...

This delayed choice quantum eraser experiment raises questions about time, time sequences, and thereby brings our usual ideas of time and causal sequence into question. If a determining factor in the complicated (lower) part of the apparatus determines an outcome in the simple part of the apparatus that consists of only a lens and a detection screen, then effect seems to precede cause. So if the light paths involved in the complicated part of the apparatus were greatly extended in order that, e.g., a year might go by before a photon showed up at D1, D2, D3, or D4, then when a photon showed up in one of these detectors it would cause the photon in the upper, simple part of the apparatus to have shown up in a certain mode a year earlier. Perhaps by re-routing light paths to the four detectors during that one year so that the number of possible outcomes is reduced to two or even perhaps to one, then the experimenter could send a signal back through time. Changing between the first possible arrangement and second possible arrangement of parts in the complicated part of the experiment would then function like the opening and closing of a telegraph key. An objection that seems fatal is soon raised: The photons that show up in D1 through D4 do not follow some regular rotation. Therefore the photons that show up in D0 pile onto the same detection screen in random order. There is no way to tell, by simply looking at the time and place of each photon detected using D0, which of the other four detectors it corresponds to. So the result will be like trying to watch a motion picture screen on which four projectors are focused. The whole screen will be awash with light. In order to segregate the photons arriving at D0 into the ones that will form one or the other of two overlapping fringe patterns and also the two diffraction patterns, it will be necessary to know how to collect them into four sets. But to do that it is necessary to get messages from the second part of the experiment about which detector was involved with the detection of the entangled partner of each photon received at D0. To oversimplify a bit, the data collected at D0 would be like an encrypted message. However, it could only be decrypted when the key to the code was delivered by a message that could travel at no faster than the speed of light. This daunting obstacle to sending messages back in time has not, however, stopped all researchers from trying to find some way of getting around the stumbling block.

reply to post by masterp


Just answer the question.

Correct, and the only possible explanation is consciousness. Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

Answer the question.

Also, you are still to explain how the act of erasing makes the pattern change from your understanding. Just saying it does is not science, and not helpfull.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by masterp

 

Ok, think about this for a moment. What if the information were locked away forever, and no one ever observed it - that is the same as if the information was deleted because no one gets to observe it. According to this experiment, there would be an interference pattern if that were the case.

Absolutely not. If the which-path information was kept, a non-interference pattern would be displayed.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder However, if the information is actually observed, the interference pattern disappears.

'Observe' does not mean 'a human sees'. It means 'a particle interacts with it'.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder So now explain how the mere act of observing the data AFTER the experiment is finished can logically change anything unless that act of observation is directly linked to the outcome of the experiment.

Observing the data after the experiment means to make a particle interact with the experiment. Perhaps, in the quantum world, things stay entangled for a long time. When a particle interacts, it breaks the entanglement and therefore the pattern changes, even if the experiment has long finished.

Remember that, in the quantum world, there is no relative reference frame.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrderEven when that data is locked away and never observed, there is an interference pattern... so what does observing that information have to do with anything unless the observer plays a crucial role? The ONLY logical conclusion is that when the information is known by a conscious observer, it changes the behavior of the quantum world. There is no way around it, and if you believe there is a way around it I would like you to explain your theory in full detail.

Why do you link the presence of a conscious entity to the effect? a random particle could changed the outcome.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

Just answer the question.

Correct, and the only possible explanation is consciousness. Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

Answer the question.

Assuming the question is this:

Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

The answer is: the act of erasing the which-path info changes the timeline.

The outcome changes because, in the quantum world, there is no requirement that causality is preserved. Hence, when the which-path info is erased, after the experiment is finished, the outcome changes. The old outcome actually does not exist; the timeline changes.

reply to post by masterp

The answer is: the act of erasing the which-path info changes the timeline.

No it doesn't. You have no clue on how this experiment works. The "erasing" has no extra interaction with the particle, compared to the detection, nothing changes in the process, the only thing that changes is the avialability of the info.

And you didn't answer the question, how does the erasing actually affect the process, or the timeline.

Didn't answer the first question either,

Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
If you can demonstrate ESp abilities to the Great James Randi he will give you a million bucks, Show him the proof and collect your bux,

Here's the proof: depiction using a yogic siddhi of the forces holding basic subatomic particles together that are essentially identical to lattice QCD calculations using a supercomputer of the gluon flux density around the quarks in a proton, published 95 years before these calculations appeared in a scientific research paper:
smphillips.8m.com...
From:
smphillips.8m.com...
Show this to Randi and you can keep the million dollars.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname

The answer is: the act of erasing the which-path info changes the timeline.

No it doesn't. You have no clue on how this experiment works. The "erasing" has no extra interaction with, the particle, compared to the detection, nothing changes in the process, the only thing that changes is the avialability of the info.

Sorry, but the erasing of the which-path info has a direct relationship to the pattern on the screen, even if the which-path info is erased after the experiment.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreennameAnd you didn't answer the question, how does the erasing actually affect the process, or the timeline.

It's easy: the outcome is connected to the parameters in the quantum world, even if we do not see it any more. If we change the parameters, the outcome changes.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreennameDidn't answer the first question either,

Why else would a past outcome change in the present to "coincidentily" fit what the experimenter knows at that present time, when it should not at all?

It is because the action of 'observing' is initiated by the experimenter.

The experimenter could also be a device. i.e. a device could erase the which-path info. The outcome would be the same, i.e. the non-interference pattern will be replaced with the interference one.